Question: Fantasy for experts.

Ignoring all the semantic arguments that have somewhat dominated this thread, below is a list of a few authors that have challenged me in one way or another and can be at least tangentally considered SFF. Most have been mentioned already. This list isn't comprehensive and would probably be slightly different if I made it on a different day than today.

Gene Wolfe
Hal Duncan
Scott Bakker
Richard Bowes
Maurice Broaddus
Jonathan Carroll
Ted Chiang
Michael Cisco
Charles de Lint
Umberto Eco
John M. Ford
Gregory Frost
Graham Joyce
Ursula K. Le Guin
Nick Mamatas
J.M. McDermott
Michael Moorcock
Haruki Murakami
Nnedi Okorafor
Holly Phillips
Michael Swanwick
Melani and Steve Rasnic Tem
Jeff VanderMeer
 
Haruki Murakami

I've been meaning to get this guy into my reading rotation for years now. I think I have one book on the shelf, but it's not the one I wanted to read first, so it's just lingering there. I wanted to read Wind-Up Bird first, but have Kafka on the Shore sitting here. Maybe I'll dive into that soon.
 
I preferred the Tiger and Jordan metaphor. :D

I would actually recommended that you not pay much attention to Hugo and WFA winners and nominees. Oh you will find the occasional gem but you will also find a number of authors playing at being high brow for the sake of appearing high brow. I look at SFF awards much the same way I do the Oscars, which is to say that I pay absolutely no attention to them at all. You will never catch me reading a book just because it won an award. Look at the this years Oscars. The King's Speech over The Social Network? Really? Not by a country mile. But The King's Speech lifts that brow up a bit. The academy loves that. Award panels love that. Blah. How often do you see traditional epic fantasy win anything? Not often. It's the brow effect homie. Be careful. ;)
 
You are making a false assumption. I am by no means young and goodness knows I have experienced enough life for two people. I have read both books btw and neither did anything for me.

Fiction doesn't challenge me. My world view has been shaped by experience and study. No work of fiction is going to make me look at anything differently. I have studied politics, philosophy, sociology, science, etc etc. When I want to challenge myself I read non-fiction. Fiction functions as nothing more than entertainment for me. If you feel the need to be moved or have some sort of emotional connection to the books you read cool. But please do not be sad on my behalf.

Emotional response seems to be an important measure of quality to some. I can understand where this might fall into the challenging category but I cannot see how it would have any relationship to any "advanced" metric.


I did not assume you were young, I assumed you were old. I find that as we age, we become more cynical and jaded, and fiction has less of an effect on us---I am 36 and still clinging desperately to the magic of youth. When I was a teenager, I read The Once and Future King, and the end of Sir Lancelot's story had me balling. I am also a big fan of non-fiction, including all you mentioned. Recently, my understanding about life has grown after reading Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion and The Greatest Show on Earth. But, while I feel these are significant non-fiction books, I still believe that the most powerful way to be moved is through story. I think it is the reason why early civilizations valued their stories, from the Bible to the Iliad to Gilgamesh. Stories serve to define cultural identity. In my culture, we often refer to Greek myth to gain a perspective on everyday life. But I suppose that is something you have to be actively seeking. If you don't want a book to change you, it won't.
 
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I would actually recommended that you not pay much attention to Hugo and WFA winners and nominees. Oh you will find the occasional gem but you will also find a number of authors playing at being high brow for the sake of appearing high brow. I look at SFF awards much the same way I do the Oscars, which is to say that I pay absolutely no attention to them at all. You will never catch me reading a book just because it won an award. Look at the this years Oscars. The King's Speech over The Social Network? Really? Not by a country mile. But The King's Speech lifts that brow up a bit. The academy loves that. Award panels love that. Blah. How often do you see traditional epic fantasy win anything? Not often. It's the brow effect homie. Be careful. ;)


While I enjoyed The King's Speech, I agree with you that many of these awards remain a mystery as to how they are bestowed. I remember reading a number of Ben Bova novels, winner of Hugo awards, and, while I found the books to be enjoyable, they seemed quite run-of-the-mill to me.
 
The Social Network was a better film than The King's Speech?? Wow. That's the first time I ever saw anyone say that. I need to get out more I guess. Where would you rank "Dude, Where's My Car?" then. :)

My way of saying... I really liked The King's Speech. Be sure not to pay any attention to any awards that do not confirm your opinon. Why did you bother to compile a list of the awards KKC won if Award are so silly? Or is it just the one's that don't confirm your view that are unworthy?

BTW- To call a golfer like Tiger Woods, or a basketball player like Jordan the best ever.... not hard to do considering their long string of successes, major victories, and years of greatness. But to name either of them the "Best ever" after only their first two ever basketball games or first two ever golf tournaments would be about like proclaiming Rothfuss the best ever after only two books. It just seems silly to me compare Rothfuss to guys like that after only two books. I guess that's all I'm saying... but your opinion is your opinion and mine just differs. Both are just opinions anyway.
 
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I would actually recommended that you not pay much attention to Hugo and WFA winners and nominees. Oh you will find the occasional gem but you will also find a number of authors playing at being high brow for the sake of appearing high brow. I look at SFF awards much the same way I do the Oscars, which is to say that I pay absolutely no attention to them at all. You will never catch me reading a book just because it won an award. Look at the this years Oscars. The King's Speech over The Social Network? Really? Not by a country mile. But The King's Speech lifts that brow up a bit. The academy loves that. Award panels love that. Blah. How often do you see traditional epic fantasy win anything? Not often. It's the brow effect homie. Be careful. ;)

Given that almost all of these awards are authors nominated by fans and voted on by fans for the winner, a comparison to the Oscars does not compute. The People's Choice Awards would be a better comparison. And I don't know who you think is getting nominated for these things, but high brow is not something that most of those authors would call themselves.

My suggestion that he peruse the major award rosters was because the books nominated offer a fair amount of variety, especially historically, not just in terms of novels but in the short fiction categories particularly, in terms of subject matter, style, and structure -- the things he's looking for in the article. It gives a wider picture of what is actually going on in the category field than people sometimes have when they start making pronouncements about that field. And my mention of the three he's picking winning awards is that I didn't want him making the mistake of saying the books are obscure, little known and not appreciated by readers, which they are not at all.
 
As far as I can tell, this thread is nothing more than a trap, a place where people can display their arrogance, and presumably, their knowledge about so-called "advanced reading." So let me see if I can persuade the OP as well as the other posters in this thread to dispense with such useless classifications as “intermediate” and “advanced” reading material.


First, I have never come across a book whose complexity did not humble me. As Nietzsche argued in “Truth and Lies in a Non-Moral Sense” and as Derrida later argued in Of Grammatology, the task of writing is to translate immediate felt experience, that is, inchoate and archaic knowledge into an iconographic form, even when we know that there is no intrinsic relationship between the icons (i.e. letters) on the page and the meaning that they are supposed to represent or convey. In this sense, all writing is infinitely beautiful because it is infinite complex. We always know going in that writing will both fail to grasp and fail to fully convey the immensity of what we feel; we know that something will be lost in translation. But it doesn’t matter because we know that if we are patient, if we keep our myopia in check and if we keep writing and keep reading eventually we’ll start to think about things in a way we hadn’t before. This is why every book I’ve ever read has changed my life. Thus, the distinction between an “intermediate” or “advanced” book is useless and unnecessary.

Being “advanced” is not the property of a book. I want to suggest that what we conceive as a book being “advanced” is merely a function of one’s reading ability. The question isn’t how advanced is the book, the question is, how advanced of a reader am I? With sufficient analytical ability and knowledge of literary theory anyone can discern the complexity of even the most mundane book. If a person wants to challenge themselves they shouldn’t read more “advanced” books, they should demand more from themselves as a reader.

Take this for example. The other day I was watching the premiere of the new ThunderCats cartoon. In one scene the father, who is the king of Thundera, is trying to teach his son about the history of the kingdom and about justice. Now, if a kid is watching this they probably aren’t going to get the nuances of the narrative technique being employed and the philosophical underpinnings of the scene. But as I was watching the hairs literally started standing up on the back of my neck and on my arms. In terms of narrative technique I’m thinking about how the story is operating on multiple diegetic levels, that is the diegetic and the metadiegetic level. As the scene progresses and the father engages in a sword battle with his son I start thinking about mimesis and the dynamic interplay between diegesis and mimesis that’s going on. And since this is a telling and a teaching through a re-enactment I’m thinking about the morphology of power, so I start thinking about the French psychoanalyst Lacan’s notion of the mirror stage. And since the father is also trying to teach his son how to use the Sword of Omens, I start thinking about how the sword symbolizes justice, but more specifically how the balance represented by the edge of the blade symbolizes the notion of proportionality inherent to justice. The father then tells his son that before the ThunderCats the planet was filled with warring animals, so I start thinking about post-colonial theory and processes of otherization. And all this from a 2 minute clip in a cartoon. However, to the 10 year old watching this both the ThunderCats and the Lord of the Rings are going to be equally challenging to analyze because their reading abilities have not yet been honed. So again, the reading material is not “advanced” it’s a person’s reading level that’s intermediate or advanced.

So, to the OP I would simply suggest that you read more about literary theory and hone your reading abilities. And if you want to read something that was challenging for me to read try Atet A.D. by Nathaniel Mackey. Awesome book! :D
 
Damn, you got all that from a 2 minute clip? I'll be honest and say I was simply staring at Cheetara's boobs through the whole episode, so all that you mention just flew right above my head.

thundercatscheetara.jpg


Cheetara 2011 is awesome.
 
Is this where we start discussing authorial intent? *Steers the conversation a bit higher than the chest*
 
Yeah, I got this from the 2 minute clip but I had to play it back about 10 times, lol. When I first saw it I knew something was going on but I couldn't pin point it. And the more I played it back the more I got.
 
bigal said:
So let me see if I can persuade the OP as well as the other posters in this thread to dispense with such useless classifications as “intermediate” and “advanced” reading material.

We did that already about a page back. :) What became clearer is that Justin was looking for fantasy novels with things like non-linear chronologies, multi-dimensional structures, magic realist surrealism, stuff like that. Less straight narratives. But we were mostly sticking to the category field and better known general fiction authors with suggestions, stuff that would be familiar to fantasy core fans.

bigal said:
In this sense, all writing is infinitely beautiful because it is infinitely complex.

Ooh, BigAl's in my tribe. And we have to introduce you to Dawnstorm and Fung Koo. You all can talk about metadiegetic layers. :)
 
The Social Network was a better film than The King's Speech?? Wow. That's the first time I ever saw anyone say that. I need to get out more I guess. Where would you rank "Dude, Where's My Car?" then. :)

My way of saying... I really liked The King's Speech. Be sure not to pay any attention to any awards that do not confirm your opinon. Why did you bother to compile a list of the awards KKC won if Award are so silly? Or is it just the one's that don't confirm your view that are unworthy?

BTW- To call a golfer like Tiger Woods, or a basketball player like Jordan the best ever.... not hard to do considering their long string of successes, major victories, and years of greatness. But to name either of them the "Best ever" after only their first two ever basketball games or first two ever golf tournaments would be about like proclaiming Rothfuss the best ever after only two books. It just seems silly to me compare Rothfuss to guys like that after only two books. I guess that's all I'm saying... but your opinion is your opinion and mine just differs. Both are just opinions anyway.

Huh?

I posted a large list of Wise Man's Fear reviews. Nothing about awards.

As for the rest, I made it clear that I was working off my own metrics and quality measurements. Furthermore, I have never, at any point, stated that Rothfuss is the best author of all time. I have said, on a number of occasions, that The Kingkiller Chronicle is the best story I have ever read in any genre. In fact I suspect I might be the only member here whose favorite author is Patrick Rothfuss. My boy teahupoo might as well not entirely sure.

As for my recommendation to the OP to avoid Hugo and WMF nominees I was presenting my opinion. JS started the thread asking for recommendations for advanced reading as a discussion point for a blog he is writing. Again where is the disconnect here? Obviously these are all opinions.

Hope that clears up any confusion you might be having.
 
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Literary Theory? *facepalm* ugh Literary Theory and Criticism...the cornerstone of the literary establishment. You know those classes where people with opinions try telling you that your opinions are somehow wrong because you are not asking the right questions or lack proper perspective. Those classes that churn out the status quo. Those classes where the same books they deem "classic" are required reading.

Literary Theory is a massive waste of time. Most readers are fully capable of comprehending whatever work is put in front of them. Literary Theory is someone telling you how to think and what to think.

Back on topic....

@JS
Have you read anything by Heinlein?
Wait scratch that, forgot we are talking strictly fantasy. Did anyone mention Kay? Not my cup of tea but man that guy can write.
Erf mentioned C.J. Cherryh who happens to be the only female author in speculative fiction that I really like. The Fortress Books are excellent.
 
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Back on topic....

@JS
Have you read anything by Heinlein?
Wait scratch that, forgot we are talking strictly fantasy. Did anyone mention Kay? Not my cup of tea but man that guy can write.
Erf mentioned C.J. Cherryh who happens to be the only female author in speculative fiction that I really like. The Fortress Books are excellent.

Stranger is one of my personal favorites. I've read Tigana, Under Heaven, and Last Light of the Sun from Kay. Some of his earlier work hasn't made its way to digital yet (or at least last time I checked). I read almost exclusively electronically these days. Wife's a little cranky about shelf space.

And quite a bit from Cherryh in my younger days - probably someone I should revisit with another decade behind me now.

The only female huh? That's interesting. Bujold is great. More recently, NK Jemisin and Lauren Buekes are tremendous. (to name a very few)

-Justin
 
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Stranger is one of my personal favorites. I've read Tigana, Under Heaven, and Last Light of the Sun from Kay. Some of his earlier work hasn't made its way to digital yet (or at least last time I checked). I read almost exclusively electronically these days. Wife's a little cranky about shelf space.

And quite a bit from Cherryh in my younger days - probably someone I should revisit with another decade behind me now.

The only female huh? That's interesting. Bujold is great. More recently, NK Jemisin and Lauren Buekes are tremendous. (to name a very few)

-Justin

C.S. Friedman is another female author in the genre who I like. The Coldfire Trilogy was pretty good. Overall though, I find that most of the female authors I have read tend to focus much more heavily on emotions, relationships, and romance. Robin Hobb and Melanie Rawn come to mind. Just not very interesting. I was thinking about checking out Jemisin but I took a look at the The Hundred Thousand Kingdom's wiki and nothing about that story looks remotely interesting.

Another good recommendation is Sean Russell. He doesn't get much face time around here but I really was impressed with his Swan's War Trilogy. Exceptional use of setting and tone.
 
C.S. Friedman is another female author in the genre who I like. The Coldfire Trilogy was pretty good. Overall though, I find that most of the female authors I have read tend to focus much more heavily on emotions, relationships, and romance. Robin Hobb and Melanie Rawn come to mind. Just not very interesting. I was thinking about checking out Jemisin but I took a look at the The Hundred Thousand Kingdom's wiki and nothing about that story looks remotely interesting.

Another good recommendation is Sean Russell. He doesn't get much face time around here but I really was impressed with his Swan's War Trilogy. Exceptional use of setting and tone.

The story itself is fairly straight forward, but I really enjoyed the way she structured the narrative. And the whole physical manifestation of unfathomable beings was done well I thought. (100K that is)
 
Actually, I was going to mention Sean Russell, but not for The Swan's War, which after a really engaging first book felt like the author lost interest in writing it at all (and, in fact, he hasn't written any fantasy at all in the near-decade since). It became pretty bland, by-the-numbers fare, in my book. Which is saying something because before The Swan's War Russell was on my must-buy-at-once list because of his previous three duologies: Moontide and Magic Rise, The River Into Darkness, and the Initiate Brother Duology. The first two there are some of my favorite fantasy from the 90s, set in a time when magic has disappeared, when natural philosophers are using the scientific method to explore their world, and things aren't what they seem.

I'm still early on my trip through her catalogue, but Carol Berg is impressing me more and more with each book I read. She's putting together some well-crafted stuff...nicely written, intricate plotting tied into the core concepts of her worlds, very convincing relationships between characters, nice emotional punch.
 

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