sevenwarlocks
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- Sep 20, 2011
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Lackless, Ash, and the great manipulation
Here are some of my responses to some of the theories put forward so far, and my own speculation.
Laurian = Netalia Lackless: I don’t always pick up on these things, but Rothfuss seems to have given the reader numerous opportunities to make this connection. In WMF, when Qvothe hears the court gossip about Netalia, and after the familiarity of Meluhan’s face, it seemed obvious to me. On a second reading of TNOTW the clues begin to just jump out at you from all over the place. Excellent catch on the end of the song, “Not-tally-a-lot-less.” We know that “Lockless” is one of the variants of the name “Lackless” (an essential variant, in fact), and “lot-less,” if not perfect, comes very close to “Lockless.” That Arliden calls Laurian “My tally” is certainly persuasive. Another reason I agree with the hidden meaning in this song is that otherwise, the meaning of the song is kind of impenetrable.
The only thing that doesn’t fit is that Qvothe, having Lackless blood, is not, therefore, “bloodless,” even figuratively speaking, but that’s a quibble. Someone mentioned a certain VERY popular theory from ASOIAF. I assume that is R+L=J. I too would put Laurian = Netalia Lackless even higher. I’d say I’m 95%.
Ash: Is he Bredon? There is evidence here, as stated by Ornery Wyvern, and I missed it on the first read. However, I also think molybdenum’s arguments are fairly persuasive. Why would the vile Ash suddenly be so genuinely open and helpful to Qvothe? We don’t have any answer to make this make sense, but that doesn’t mean there is no answer.
After re-reading this section today, I am a believer. Much of the evidence cited by Ornery Wyvern is presented by Bredon for no reason that has any impact on the story if not to connect him to Ash. For example, his clothes are ash gray. That’s unsubtle. Also, the first time he leaves Qvothe, he volunteers, “I’m learning to dance.” If he isn’t Ash then this is a deliberate misdirection. Later, there is the court gossip that puts Bredon at some kind of pagan ritual—you know, cavorting with Demons and the like. (Actually, I assume pagan means pre-Tehlin in these books, since it obviously doesn’t mean pre-Christian.) If you favor the idea that Ash is an Amyr, the possibility that Bredon is Ash fits very conveniently with the possibility that there was, not long ago, and perhaps still is, an Amyr in the Maer’s court.
As to who else Ash might be, it is hard to say, as the clues point inconclusively in numerous directions. He could be Haliax, or a different member of the Chandrian, an Amyr, a Singer, a Sithe, or none of these things. Also, he might or might not be Bredon. Also, he might or might not be the king Kvothe eventually kills. There is no strong evidence for this, except for literary convention: the man who beats the hero’s true-love is always the villain of the story.
It very creepy when he asks Qvothe “Would you like to know my plan?” He seems to be toying with Qvothe, and that would certainly support the idea that Qvothe is being manipulated.
What’s their plan? Ash is either a sadistic monster, or he’s using Denna to manipulate Qvothe. I favor the later because much of the story makes more sense if we don’t accept that Denna’s always being in Qvothe’s path is a coincidence. I find it very unlikely that it is a coincidence, as the rest of Rothfuss’s world very noticeably doesn’t work that way. Denna shows up in every foreign country and out of the way town, but Wil and Sim don’t. Denna sings about Lanre, but the singers on stage at the Eolian do not. The only other person who does, aside from Kvothe’s father, is Scarpi, and I don’t think anyone believes Scarpi crossed paths with Kvothe at random.
No, Denna is there for a reason. What is that reason? My theory is that the Chandrian want to get to or at whatever is behind the Lackless door, and that they discovered, as a result of killing his troupe, that Kvothe was the Lackless heir who had the power to open the door. For that reason, the events that connect Kvothe to Denna, and to the Lackless door, have been planned.
What is the door? Something to do with life and death? Something related to the downfall of Lanre? Perhaps Haliax merely wishes to die, and perhaps he knows that only one thing could make Kvothe open it – that being to save the woman he loves. So, basically, I think they will use Denna to bring Kvothe to the door and then kill her to make him open it. This would create a strong parallel between Lanray and Kvothe. Denna’s death is also almost unavoidable. Kvothe, as a storyteller, usually remains very much in the mind of his younger self, revealing events only as he lived them. This makes the infrequent interjections from his older and wiser self feel all the more significant. When he talks about Denna, his sense of loss is palpable. This will end in death or total betrayal.
Unless... I have toyed with the idea that Denna might be Bast. Though apparently male and heterosexual, Bast has an unmistakable affection for Kvothe. He can also disguise his appearance. Bast is a Fey creature - possibly a Dennerling. Denna changing her name indicates that she doesn't know what she is, or that she knows and doesn't like it. I think it is possible that her patron might have summoned her from the Fey. It fits with his "pagan rituals."
Here are some of my responses to some of the theories put forward so far, and my own speculation.
Laurian = Netalia Lackless: I don’t always pick up on these things, but Rothfuss seems to have given the reader numerous opportunities to make this connection. In WMF, when Qvothe hears the court gossip about Netalia, and after the familiarity of Meluhan’s face, it seemed obvious to me. On a second reading of TNOTW the clues begin to just jump out at you from all over the place. Excellent catch on the end of the song, “Not-tally-a-lot-less.” We know that “Lockless” is one of the variants of the name “Lackless” (an essential variant, in fact), and “lot-less,” if not perfect, comes very close to “Lockless.” That Arliden calls Laurian “My tally” is certainly persuasive. Another reason I agree with the hidden meaning in this song is that otherwise, the meaning of the song is kind of impenetrable.
The only thing that doesn’t fit is that Qvothe, having Lackless blood, is not, therefore, “bloodless,” even figuratively speaking, but that’s a quibble. Someone mentioned a certain VERY popular theory from ASOIAF. I assume that is R+L=J. I too would put Laurian = Netalia Lackless even higher. I’d say I’m 95%.
Ash: Is he Bredon? There is evidence here, as stated by Ornery Wyvern, and I missed it on the first read. However, I also think molybdenum’s arguments are fairly persuasive. Why would the vile Ash suddenly be so genuinely open and helpful to Qvothe? We don’t have any answer to make this make sense, but that doesn’t mean there is no answer.
After re-reading this section today, I am a believer. Much of the evidence cited by Ornery Wyvern is presented by Bredon for no reason that has any impact on the story if not to connect him to Ash. For example, his clothes are ash gray. That’s unsubtle. Also, the first time he leaves Qvothe, he volunteers, “I’m learning to dance.” If he isn’t Ash then this is a deliberate misdirection. Later, there is the court gossip that puts Bredon at some kind of pagan ritual—you know, cavorting with Demons and the like. (Actually, I assume pagan means pre-Tehlin in these books, since it obviously doesn’t mean pre-Christian.) If you favor the idea that Ash is an Amyr, the possibility that Bredon is Ash fits very conveniently with the possibility that there was, not long ago, and perhaps still is, an Amyr in the Maer’s court.
As to who else Ash might be, it is hard to say, as the clues point inconclusively in numerous directions. He could be Haliax, or a different member of the Chandrian, an Amyr, a Singer, a Sithe, or none of these things. Also, he might or might not be Bredon. Also, he might or might not be the king Kvothe eventually kills. There is no strong evidence for this, except for literary convention: the man who beats the hero’s true-love is always the villain of the story.
It very creepy when he asks Qvothe “Would you like to know my plan?” He seems to be toying with Qvothe, and that would certainly support the idea that Qvothe is being manipulated.
What’s their plan? Ash is either a sadistic monster, or he’s using Denna to manipulate Qvothe. I favor the later because much of the story makes more sense if we don’t accept that Denna’s always being in Qvothe’s path is a coincidence. I find it very unlikely that it is a coincidence, as the rest of Rothfuss’s world very noticeably doesn’t work that way. Denna shows up in every foreign country and out of the way town, but Wil and Sim don’t. Denna sings about Lanre, but the singers on stage at the Eolian do not. The only other person who does, aside from Kvothe’s father, is Scarpi, and I don’t think anyone believes Scarpi crossed paths with Kvothe at random.
No, Denna is there for a reason. What is that reason? My theory is that the Chandrian want to get to or at whatever is behind the Lackless door, and that they discovered, as a result of killing his troupe, that Kvothe was the Lackless heir who had the power to open the door. For that reason, the events that connect Kvothe to Denna, and to the Lackless door, have been planned.
What is the door? Something to do with life and death? Something related to the downfall of Lanre? Perhaps Haliax merely wishes to die, and perhaps he knows that only one thing could make Kvothe open it – that being to save the woman he loves. So, basically, I think they will use Denna to bring Kvothe to the door and then kill her to make him open it. This would create a strong parallel between Lanray and Kvothe. Denna’s death is also almost unavoidable. Kvothe, as a storyteller, usually remains very much in the mind of his younger self, revealing events only as he lived them. This makes the infrequent interjections from his older and wiser self feel all the more significant. When he talks about Denna, his sense of loss is palpable. This will end in death or total betrayal.
Unless... I have toyed with the idea that Denna might be Bast. Though apparently male and heterosexual, Bast has an unmistakable affection for Kvothe. He can also disguise his appearance. Bast is a Fey creature - possibly a Dennerling. Denna changing her name indicates that she doesn't know what she is, or that she knows and doesn't like it. I think it is possible that her patron might have summoned her from the Fey. It fits with his "pagan rituals."
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. That is sad just to consider, and he is more of a long shot in succession that the Jakis's
