Just how bad is John Norman's Gor Series?

[Edward M. Grant]

I think I read the first three. I don't recall much. I don't know if they deteriorated or if I got bored but I did not regret quitting at the time.

I read the first few some years ago when a friend was running a role-playing campaign set in that world. From what I remember, the early ones were actually quite interesting stories, but rapidly degenerated into the slaves and bondage thing as the series went on.

 

[Ariana_FFD]

Most generally sex does play a large role in Norman's books, but also in Star Wars and most other genres in sci-fi/horror. I've read 16 of the 26 or so novels and most were intriguing. Then again I have read a lot of adult literature like Story of O, and Marque DeSade's Justine and the perils of virtue. It is a matter of taste. Not meant for some of the younger minds present. Then again Larry Niven speaks freely of inter-galactic sexual relations in Draco's tavern... a true classic, not to forget John Varley's Titan series.

Sex is everywhere so on Gor the social relationships have slaves. I think for what they were they were great reads!

~A~

 

[farseer2]

Amog the authors I'm really interseted in are Robert E. Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Fritz Leiber, Fred Saberhagen, C.L. Moore, Karl Edward Wagner, Leigh Brackett, Talbot Mundy, Michael Moorcock, David Gemmell, Lin Carter, Avram Davidson, Edgar Rice Burroughs, and others.

OK, if you like all these authors I think it's worth trying the Gor series.

As other have mentioned, the first books are pulpy sword and planet fantasies with a SF component. They are not great literature by any means, but they are readable and I found them entertaining as a teenager. Somewhere along the way (perhaps book 6 is as good a place as any to mark the change), the S&M thing got out of hand and the writing became ridiculous, with the characters endlessly pontificating about how women secretly crave being slaves and having a strong domineering master. I mean, I have no objection to those fantasies if that's your thing, but it's a matter of style, not of content. You'll groan each time a character talks and you get another of those lectures. Please, have some mercy on us! I also found it surprising that the author is a professor. He should have seen the flaws in his writing. And didn't he have an editor, or advance copies readers? There are still pulpy adventures in those books, mind you, but the silly lectures disrupt the flow of the story and are really a bother.

Now, someone who likes both the sword and planet component and the S&M component will certainly be bothered by the dialogues, but will probably still enjoy the latter books (I think I read till the 12th or so, so I don't know about the ones after that). A couple of them are told from the point of view of a female slave instead of the main character of the series (for example, Slave Girl of Gor), and those are by far the most dedicated to the S&M theme, with only a flimsy plot excuse connecting them to the overall story arc. They could almost be described as softcore pornography, rather than sword and planet (softcore because Norman never gets into graphic descriptions of sexual acts, he just states they happen).

My advice would be to read the first book, if you are interested in sword and planet stories. It's quite readable. If you enjoy it go on till you get tired of the series.

 

[John_PQ]

Gor seemed to be a classic case of the author not understanding what was selling his books. He seemed to think it was the S&M slave girl stuff, when really it was his badass first person Gary Stu chopping his way to the top. It wasn't great but it was pulpy fun. Sadly the former overwhelmed the latter.

 

[Ariana_FFD]

Well as a fan of Norman's works and other exceptional authors, I liked them and enjoyed the reads. I enjoy most books on an individual basis. As anyone should. I once listened to a lot of people who critiqued a movie and did not see it on the big screen, and as a result really regretted listening to those people. I suggest reading a few of them and if you don't like them their resale value at book stores and cons will make sure the investment is not in vane. Some folk would pay hundreds for my collection of original Gor series. I would never part with them any more then my signed "Courtship Rite" by Donald R. Kingsley, my signed "Ringworld" by Larry Niven who signed mine for me at a LASFS meeting, or my signed print of "Elric, the Demon Slayer" by Michael Whelan. To each their own.

Besides Sword and Barbarian style writing varies so much, the genre is very diverse. Having read ALL of Edgar Rice Burroughs books, I would say for adventure they are great. I like the classics. Greg Bear's Mongoliad trilogy is good too.

~A~

 

[Riothamus]

OK, if you like all these authors I think it's worth trying the Gor series.

As other have mentioned, the first books are pulpy sword and planet fantasies with a SF component. They are not great literature by any means, but they are readable and I found them entertaining as a teenager. Somewhere along the way (perhaps book 6 is as good a place as any to mark the change), the S&M thing got out of hand and the writing became ridiculous, with the characters endlessly pontificating about how women secretly crave being slaves and having a strong domineering master. I mean, I have no objection to those fantasies if that's your thing, but it's a matter of style, not of content. You'll groan each time a character talks and you get another of those lectures. Please, have some mercy on us! I also found it surprising that the author is a professor. He should have seen the flaws in his writing. And didn't he have an editor, or advance copies readers? There are still pulpy adventures in those books, mind you, but the silly lectures disrupt the flow of the story and are really a bother.

Now, someone who likes both the sword and planet component and the S&M component will certainly be bothered by the dialogues, but will probably still enjoy the latter books (I think I read till the 12th or so, so I don't know about the ones after that). A couple of them are told from the point of view of a female slave instead of the main character of the series (for example, Slave Girl of Gor), and those are by far the most dedicated to the S&M theme, with only a flimsy plot excuse connecting them to the overall story arc. They could almost be described as softcore pornography, rather than sword and planet (softcore because Norman never gets into graphic descriptions of sexual acts, he just states they happen).

My advice would be to read the first book, if you are interested in sword and planet stories. It's quite readable. If you enjoy it go on till you get tired of the series.

I personally thought Norman was a man of great imagination but of no great literary prowess and of misogynistic views. The S&M aspects by themselves did not bother me in that I don't have any moral objections to such, it was the way they were implemented combined with a lack of quality prose. Norman has within him the essence of a rather decent world builder, but should leave any more dramatic writings to a better author. I found the male dominance boring because it seems to have been done a thousand times in literature, more than those featuring women in such a position. I also gave up on even trying to read 50 Shades of Grey for similar reasons, bad prose combined with male dominance.

 

[Ariana_FFD]

More like 50 Shades of blah! While Norman is no Frank Herbert or E.R.B., I found some entertaining parts. But there are better out there. Some time's you just have to skip the boring parts in some books. Sadly that is much harder to do at the movies! lol!
~A~

 

[Riothamus]

More like 50 Shades of blah! While Norman is no Frank Herbert or E.R.B., I found some entertaining parts. But there are better out there. Some time's you just have to skip the boring parts in some books. Sadly that is much harder to do at the movies! lol!
~A~

That's just it. It wasn't particularly well written and that sort of patriarchal society has in and of itself come to bore me. The male dominance in and of itself bored me. Even when I was a child I preferred the archetype of the warrior princess over the damsel in distress. She seemed like the one who would be much more fun to hang out with.

 

[OberynMartell]

Just read "Houseplants of Gor" and LOLed

Sadly, it's left me with no interest in Norman's actual works...

 

[MadameofMatryx]

Just how bad is the Gor series by John Norman

Due to my involvement in a combat and role playing game in Second Life based on the Gor novels by John Norman I find myself reading Hunters of Gor because I play a panther and since so many people that play this game take it so seriously I felt I should educate myself on its' foundation. The writing style can at times be captivating (no pun intended) and the action moves swiftly often turning the tables several times in a short space of time, but the philosophies Norman tries to put forth through the writing are a bit idiotic if not downright laughable. To imagine that women who are taken prisoner and forced into sexual relations are then broken, becoming totally enamored of their captors is absurd. Many women may like a little bit of rough sex but the idea that they would tolerate a steady diet of abasement is ludicrous as is exemplified by the present condition of women which continues to seek equalization in our society. It makes me wonder about John Norman's relationship with his wife to say nothing of the insecurities he must have suffered being surrounded with brilliant women in a university setting.

 

[Riothamus]

Due to my involvement in a combat and role playing game in Second Life based on the Gor novels by John Norman I find myself reading Hunters of Gor because I play a panther and since so many people that play this game take it so seriously I felt I should educate myself on its' foundation. The writing style can at times be captivating (no pun intended) and the action moves swiftly often turning the tables several times in a short space of time, but the philosophies Norman tries to put forth through the writing are a bit idiotic if not downright laughable. To imagine that women who are taken prisoner and forced into sexual relations are then broken, becoming totally enamored of their captors is absurd. Many women may like a little bit of rough sex but the idea that they would tolerate a steady diet of abasement is ludicrous as is exemplified by the present condition of women which continues to seek equalization in our society. It makes me wonder about John Norman's relationship with his wife to say nothing of the insecurities he must have suffered being surrounded with brilliant women in a university setting.

Therein lies the very crux of this dilemma.

 

[HeclaBull]

I would however like to find a series like that except with women in charge and more of a fantasy edge with decent writing because the whole macho man thing gets on my nerves in general.

Read Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series.

Has Norman ever said in any interviews if he takes the sexual roles in these books seriously, or if he's just injecting some of his fantasies into, well, a fantasy series?

 

[KatG]

Read Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series.

Has Norman ever said in any interviews if he takes the sexual roles in these books seriously, or if he's just injecting some of his fantasies into, well, a fantasy series?

He's a philosophy professor. He's a Nietzschean and social Darwinist, conservative but not Objectivist. He believes societies naturally run on dominance and hierarchy and women's natural place is submissive and helper because men are physically stronger. But that wasn't particularly consistent, since Gor has male slaves and most of the women aren't slaves but instead free women who run businesses and rule cities and can own slaves themselves. I don't think he's particularly advocating sex slavery and bondage as the natural order, more like as sex games. He based the series on Burroughs John Carter and Tarzan, and so you get that kind of thing with the gender roles. On the sex front, it's basic Penthouse magazine stuff that was popular in the 1970's (there was way more sex in fiction in the 1970's then there is today overall,) but honestly, I think he's far more interested in the men's adventure stuff than the gender/sex stuff. He spends a lot more time on it.

The fantasy of the feisty helpmeet who still accepts your every command and is your sex slave is quintessential 1970's and there was a lot of this stuff back then, which is one of the reasons for the stereotype of all fantasy fiction being about scantily clad women so teenage boys can have soft porn. Gor just happened to be one of the more popular ones, probably because of the bondage stuff. It's funny, I had completely forgotten about the Gor books for years and now his name seems to be popping up a lot. Maybe if it's a game on Sim Life, that would be one reason.

 

[Contrarius]

Speaking of Gor, I just noticed yesterday that several of the Gor books are now available on Audible....

 

[Riothamus]

He's a philosophy professor. He's a Nietzschean and social Darwinist, conservative but not Objectivist. He believes societies naturally run on dominance and hierarchy and women's natural place is submissive and helper because men are physically stronger. But that wasn't particularly consistent, since Gor has male slaves and most of the women aren't slaves but instead free women who run businesses and rule cities and can own slaves themselves. I don't think he's particularly advocating sex slavery and bondage as the natural order, more like as sex games. He based the series on Burroughs John Carter and Tarzan, and so you get that kind of thing with the gender roles. On the sex front, it's basic Penthouse magazine stuff that was popular in the 1970's (there was way more sex in fiction in the 1970's then there is today overall,) but honestly, I think he's far more interested in the men's adventure stuff than the gender/sex stuff. He spends a lot more time on it.

The fantasy of the feisty helpmeet who still accepts your every command and is your sex slave is quintessential 1970's and there was a lot of this stuff back then, which is one of the reasons for the stereotype of all fantasy fiction being about scantily clad women so teenage boys can have soft porn. Gor just happened to be one of the more popular ones, probably because of the bondage stuff. It's funny, I had completely forgotten about the Gor books for years and now his name seems to be popping up a lot. Maybe if it's a game on Sim Life, that would be one reason.

That means he's four things I despise all rolled into one which explains why I dislike his writing(I have far less than fond feelings on social darwinists, nietzscheans, conservatives, and sexists).That explains why I don't like the series. I find it hard to read or enjoy anything that is not only poorly written but philosophically objectionable. That also explains why I don't care for a lot of old pulp stuff, particularly the men's adventure stuff. It's not even about sexism entirely in that case, it's about the portrayal of manliness. It's the single minded attitude toward what maleness is. The unrelenting, brutal image subsumed by martial physicality to the almost total exclusion of the more ephemeral aspects of maleness. The assumption that maleness is solely based in the warrior element. In many ways I would consider it more manly if we define maleness as bravery to be physically weak and perhaps timid and to confront a daunting challenge. I think of Apollo who is lord of poetry, music, and healing. He was considered very masculine in the time before Christianity, but he was no mere bruiser. I also hate the assumption that men want to be domineering in sexual things. I don't mind descriptions of gorgeous, scantily clad women. I would be a terrible liar to say such things did not excite me. However a pretty face can only go so far and the feisty but submissive imagery bothers me because I am as drawn to that forcefulness in real women and female characters. The submissiveness more often than that seems to be pointless pandering to less than enlightened elements. Luckily modern fantasy and speculative fiction seems to be casting that element aside. To be frank it is this limited view on maleness and femininity that make it hard for me to enjoy the Gor series.

 

[KatG]

That means he's four things I despise all rolled into one which explains why I dislike his writing(I have far less than fond feelings on social darwinists, nietzscheans, conservatives, and sexists).That explains why I don't like the series. I find it hard to read or enjoy anything that is not only poorly written but philosophically objectionable. That also explains why I don't care for a lot of old pulp stuff, particularly the men's adventure stuff. It's not even about sexism entirely in that case, it's about the portrayal of manliness. It's the single minded attitude toward what maleness is. The unrelenting, brutal image subsumed by martial physicality to the almost total exclusion of the more ephemeral aspects of maleness. The assumption that maleness is solely based in the warrior element. In many ways I would consider it more manly if we define maleness as bravery to be physically weak and perhaps timid and to confront a daunting challenge. I think of Apollo who is lord of poetry, music, and healing. He was considered very masculine in the time before Christianity, but he was no mere bruiser. I also hate the assumption that men want to be domineering in sexual things. I don't mind descriptions of gorgeous, scantily clad women. I would be a terrible liar to say such things did not excite me. However a pretty face can only go so far and the feisty but submissive imagery bothers me because I am as drawn to that forcefulness in real women and female characters. The submissiveness more often than that seems to be pointless pandering to less than enlightened elements. Luckily modern fantasy and speculative fiction seems to be casting that element aside. To be frank it is this limited view on maleness and femininity that make it hard for me to enjoy the Gor series.

Gor was something of an outcast in category fantasy, I'm given to understand. It sold, but more in the wholesale paperback market as general fiction. It is very much of its time in the 1970's. I gather later books got really bad.

 

[Riothamus]

Gor was something of an outcast in category fantasy, I'm given to understand. It sold, but more in the wholesale paperback market as general fiction. It is very much of its time in the 1970's. I gather later books got really bad.

Yeah even people who think the series has always sucked say it started off a fair deal better and has only gotten worse with time. Though, yeah the whole series is pretty much hated among the speculative fiction crowd for its social and philosophical content.

 

[Ada Radius]

Blech

I just read the first five, then skimmed through five more and sampled another five. Because someone asked me to make costumes for virtual reality characters. Fortunately for me I read fast, as this was not a fun read.
Yikes.
Even for pulp, which I otherwise adore, this is bad bad writing, like those Bad Hemingway contests, only more repeats. These are brief novellas with a couple of good battle scenes, padded out with squicky sex fantasies and the idea that if our loathsome protagonist repeats himself over. and over. and over, it means he really means it? No, he and his buddies just sound like idiots. This writer is a professor? Seriously? I kept waiting for one intelligent character, but although he kept telling us that Goreans are intelligent and like intelligent women, none appeared, at least none by book 12ish.
Absurd philosophical ramblings aside, there are plot holes you could drive a truck through, even for an imaginary world in a 70's pulp. Ahem, if you suspend a girl by her wrists for any length of time, strap her to the prow of a ship or onto an oar, tie her head in a bag of manure overnight, store her in a filthy cage she can't stand up in or stretch out in, force-march her in shackles, flog her, brand her and have her gang-raped, she's going to have damage. She's not gonna bounce back orgasmic, beautiful and adoring. We're also expected to imagine that Gorean men are strong and honorable, and that Earth men aren't, even though the Goreans are kidnapping unattached Earth girls by sneaking into their bedrooms and drugging them. Ooo that's brave all right. And how come? There aren't enough girls on Gor? Our heroes do seem to prefer not to procreate, maybe that's it. You'd think at least one of these highly physically trained, intelligent and fabulous women would have thought to get her "master" drunk, throttle him with her wrist chains, fish the keys out his bag and get the heck outa there, but nooo, she loooves being a terrified slave. Gawd.

 

[KatG]

You are entirely too dedicated a costumer.

Just think of it as what Ira Levin was satirizing in The Stepford Wives.

 

[Ada Radius]

haaaaa this is true

I'm prolly not the right designer for this, lol. Goreans already got all the stuff they need in Second Life, now they are apparently moving out to the open source metaverse. They do like to shop though.

You are entirely too dedicated a costumer.

Just think of it as what Ira Levin was satirizing in The Stepford Wives.