How do readers of self-published novels critique a book?

The biggest thing that appeals to me in a novel is strong characterization; if a book doesn't have that, it doesn't (usually) resonate with me. Perhaps it's just the selection I've read, but I have yet to find really strong character development in any self-published book. I'm also a bit suspicious of any author (self-published or otherwise) who is able to churn out books at a seemingly-unrealistic rate. For example, there is one self-published fantasy author out there, who I won't name, who has released 10 novels in less than two years. It seems to me that the author couldn't have possibly taken the time to make each book the best story it could be. And yet, each volume continues to get great reviews. Maybe I'm the one missing out?


BUT my favorite authiors are generally traditionally published OR start out self-pubbed and end up being signed (Sullivan, Ryan, Dalglish come to mind.)

This is the other thing that makes me hesitant about self-published fiction. I am of the opinion that "cream rises to the top", and that any self-published author worth their salt will eventually find traditional publishing. That being the case, I'd almost rather wait for the traditionally-published version, which will inevitably be stronger, rather than the "rough draft" of the self-published version.
 
This is the other thing that makes me hesitant about self-published fiction. I am of the opinion that "cream rises to the top", and that any self-published author worth their salt will eventually find traditional publishing. That being the case, I'd almost rather wait for the traditionally-published version, which will inevitably be stronger, rather than the "rough draft" of the self-published version.

That of course assumes that what makes it to traditional publishing is the cream of the crop, and not the cream of the crap. I think that is an unwarranted assumption, and as evidence I call to your attention the Twilight series of shitty books, and the cheap knock-off of that shitty series, Fifty Shades of Grey. Those are top-selling, traditionally published books that are more dreadful than any of the self-published works that have come before my eyes.

That being said, I certainly understand your concern about self-published works, many of which are rubbish. However, rather than try to convince you myself, I recommend this post at Fantasy Review Barn. Pauline Ross is a careful, attentive reader with good taste, and if you are curious to try a good book by indie authors, she has several recommendations.
 
That of course assumes that what makes it to traditional publishing is the cream of the crop, and not the cream of the crap. I think that is an unwarranted assumption, and as evidence I call to your attention the Twilight series of shitty books, and the cheap knock-off of that shitty series, Fifty Shades of Grey. Those are top-selling, traditionally published books that are more dreadful than any of the self-published works that have come before my eyes.

That being said, I certainly understand your concern about self-published works, many of which are rubbish. However, rather than try to convince you myself, I recommend this post at Fantasy Review Barn. Pauline Ross is a careful, attentive reader with good taste, and if you are curious to try a good book by indie authors, she has several recommendations.

Just to be clear, Fifty Shades of Grey was self-published, became a self-published bestseller, and then got a reprint deal with publishers.
 
Just to be clear, Fifty Shades of Grey was self-published, became a self-published bestseller, and then got a reprint deal with publishers.

Which proves my point that publishers aren't focused on quality; if they were, Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have made it past some internet fan fic site. Publishers are profit-making entities, and if they think crap will sell, they'll publish crap. Not that everything that's published mainstream is crap, but I think Sturgeon's Law applies.
 
Which proves my point that publishers aren't focused on quality; if they were, Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have made it past some internet fan fic site. Publishers are profit-making entities, and if they think crap will sell, they'll publish crap. Not that everything that's published mainstream is crap, but I think Sturgeon's Law applies.

I am not going to argue with you about whether you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not crap in fiction. I was simply correcting a factual error, since 50 Shades of Grey is pretty much the posterboy for self-publishing success and it was being put in the publisher made it column instead.
 
I am not going to argue with you about whether you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not crap in fiction. I was simply correcting a factual error, since 50 Shades of Grey is pretty much the posterboy for self-publishing success and it was being put in the publisher made it column instead.

That's good, for there would be little to argue about. I wish I got to be the arbiter of what is crap and what isn't, because there are a number of overlooked books that could use one-tenth the attention inexplicably lavished on Fifty Shades of Grey. I surely do wish I were the arbiter.
 
Which proves my point that publishers aren't focused on quality; if they were, Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have made it past some internet fan fic site. Publishers are profit-making entities, and if they think crap will sell, they'll publish crap. Not that everything that's published mainstream is crap, but I think Sturgeon's Law applies.

I agree with all my heart. Or with all my gall, considering that the book was gag-worthy as far as I'm concerned.

"Self-published book/author being picked by traditional publishing house" is far from equalling "good book" IMHO. Unfortunately for me, "what sells" if too often of the crap variety, no matter the genre, and I end up rolling my eyes at best, infuriated at worst. I've also stopped counting the typos and various other mistakes in works considered as worthy by publishers. But those sell. Ergo, a lot of people actually like crap. Their choice, of course. Only we can't go anymore (if we ever could?) by the rule that whatever gets trad-pubb'ed is good, and whatever is self-pubb'ed isn't.

Also, "cream rises to the top" isn't always so true: sometimes, it's really "marketing skills rise to the top". :/
 
That of course assumes that what makes it to traditional publishing is the cream of the crop, and not the cream of the crap.

You're right, and by no means do I feel that everything traditionally-published is good. It's just that - in my reading experience - everything that's good has been traditionally published.

I do like the concept of self-publishing; it's a wonderful avenue for authors to reach a broad audience (if I were a novelist, I would definitely self-publish if I couldn't get a traditional deal). However...I still stand by the opinion that any self-published author who is good enough to stand by the "big names" will eventually be discovered and picked up by a traditional publisher (Anthony Ryan is the perfect example of this).

I recommend this post at Fantasy Review Barn. Pauline Ross is a careful, attentive reader with good taste, and if you are curious to try a good book by indie authors, she has several recommendations.

I appreciate the link, and I'll definitely check it out more closely...I already like the fact that she describes herself as a fan of "character-driven fantasy", so it seems her tastes might be in line with my own.
 
I do like the concept of self-publishing; it's a wonderful avenue for authors to reach a broad audience (if I were a novelist, I would definitely self-publish if I couldn't get a traditional deal). However...I still stand by the opinion that any self-published author who is good enough to stand by the "big names" will eventually be discovered and picked up by a traditional publisher (Anthony Ryan is the perfect example of this).

I appreciate the link, and I'll definitely check it out more closely...I already like the fact that she describes herself as a fan of "character-driven fantasy", so it seems her tastes might be in line with my own.

I hope you're right, because after two years plugging at the indie-author thing I'd like to think that I just need to hang in there.

Pauline really is a fantastic reviewer, and I'll give anything she recommends a try.
 
I hope you're right, because after two years plugging at the indie-author thing I'd like to think that I just need to hang in there.

I know what you mean. The reviews for your two books have been fantastic so far. I hope they gain the audience they deserve. And, yes, I think you need to hang in there. Not everyone gets to be an instant bestseller. I'm figuring being what used to be called mid list, and possibly only in self-publish, is the best I can hope for no matter how well my books are received by reviewers. There's no shame in that.
But questions arise: how to capture a potential reader's attention or how do young readers judge a book's quality? Pondering these issues is interesting to me, although I wonder if I should have asked the question in the Writing section.
 
I know what you mean. The reviews for your two books have been fantastic so far.

No disrespect to him, but 50 Amazon reviews and a hand full of reviews on Goodreads are not gonna scream "we have to pick this guy up !!" to a tradpub.

All the indies that got picked up managed to earn a following on their merits , and were popular before they were picked up. It also helps if you know how to engage the blogosphere / social media / internet at large past sitting on fantasy sub reddits moaning that all traditionally published fantasy is crap and all indy stuff is teeamazeballs.

Reviews are hard to take at face value as well when its costs pennies to buy reviews and you can look at a novel and see single digit verified reviews out of whatever amount of 5* reviews.

And while traditional publishers are in no way a guarantee of quality, they at least (in the overwhelming majority of cases) provide me with a baseline of proper spelling, grammar and the knowledge it's been proof read/edited by more than just the authors mates and family.

I'd be much more forgiving of indy novels if the community wasn't so whiny and they actually made efforts to have a base level of QA for their novels.
 
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No disrespect to him, but 50 Amazon reviews and a hand full of reviews on Goodreads are not gonna scream "we have to pick this guy up !!" to a tradpub.

Yeah, I don't put a lot of emphasis on the Amazon reviews (except for my own book, of course - those reviewers simply demonstrated excellent taste :p ), but in Tracker's case, I was talking about his Kirkus reviews, which aren't cheap but are valid.
 
I know what you mean. The reviews for your two books have been fantastic so far. I hope they gain the audience they deserve. And, yes, I think you need to hang in there. Not everyone gets to be an instant bestseller. I'm figuring being what used to be called mid list, and possibly only in self-publish, is the best I can hope for no matter how well my books are received by reviewers. There's no shame in that.
But questions arise: how to capture a potential reader's attention or how do young readers judge a book's quality? Pondering these issues is interesting to me, although I wonder if I should have asked the question in the Writing section.

Hey, thanks!

I think the first step in getting attention is writing a damned good book, one that measures up to the standards of anything that's traditionally published. (In my view, indie authors have to not only be their own greatest fans but their own sharpest critics.) After that, you just have to plug away at getting people to give you a fair chance, which is NOT always easy but there really is no other game in town. Lots of deserving books, indie or otherwise, go unread, and there's only so much any author can do to change that. I try to control what I can and live with the rest. (No mean feat.)
 
Reviews are hard to take at face value as well when its costs pennies to buy reviews and you can look at a novel and see single digit verified reviews out of whatever amount of 5* reviews.

They can be, which is why I am glad I've gotten a few not-so-hot reviews. However, don't put too much stock in "verified reviews", which I take to mean "Amazon verified purchase." Some people review books they received as gifts or in a StoryBundle, and are therefore not "verified purchasers" as far as Amazon.com is concerned. That doesn't mean they didn't read the book.

Honestly, I think reviews should be evaluated in much the same way as novels themselves. A five-star "best book evah!" review doesn't carry much weight, but a four-paragraph analysis should be treated more respectfully. After all, someone who took that much time to provide feedback on a novel he/she read should be taken seriously to at least some extent.
 
To self publish or not to self publish... That is the question!

This is a very poignant discussion given my current predicament

I have just finished writing my first book (+120,000 word novel about Angels) and was preparing the manuscript for submission to publishers. However after speaking to an established author I am considering the self publishing road instead. The established author advised me that due to the meteoric rise of self published ebooks and the decline in demand for hard copy books, publishers presently are very reluctant to take on new "unproven" authors.

So now I am faced with a new question, pay the high fees of getting the manuscript assessed ($850+) and after making the relevant changes have the final draft copy edited ($1500+) or just self publish as is?

As a self published author I wouldn't have to take the final steps in polishing my word, simply setting my ebook adrift "on the line" like many other rudderless ships before mine.

Yet after reading this thread I have decided to take he time and make the extra effort of completing the process as if i were submitting to a real publisher.

Writing is a lot of work, polishing the final product is even harder and I can understand why a lot of self published writers want to skip the second step or simply can't afford it.

Still, things worth doing are seldom easy.

Thanks for helping me make my decision.
 
This is a very poignant discussion given my current predicament

I have just finished writing my first book (+120,000 word novel about Angels) and was preparing the manuscript for submission to publishers. However after speaking to an established author I am considering the self publishing road instead. The established author advised me that due to the meteoric rise of self published ebooks and the decline in demand for hard copy books, publishers presently are very reluctant to take on new "unproven" authors.

So now I am faced with a new question, pay the high fees of getting the manuscript assessed ($850+) and after making the relevant changes have the final draft copy edited ($1500+) or just self publish as is?

As a self published author I wouldn't have to take the final steps in polishing my word, simply setting my ebook adrift "on the line" like many other rudderless ships before mine.

Yet after reading this thread I have decided to take he time and make the extra effort of completing the process as if i were submitting to a real publisher.

Writing is a lot of work, polishing the final product is even harder and I can understand why a lot of self published writers want to skip the second step or simply can't afford it.

Still, things worth doing are seldom easy.

Thanks for helping me make my decision.

Not that you are seeking my approval, but I think you're making the right decision in taking on the extra effort. It's more time and money, sure, but in the end you'll have a product you can be truly proud of. Good luck!
 
Angelo Nero, I also think you're making the right decision. Make the work the best it can be, give it the highest possible chance for success. Hopefully it will work out for you but if it doesn't then you'll have no, or fewer, regrets and second-guesses.
 
Angelo Nero, I also think you're making the right decision. Make the work the best it can be, give it the highest possible chance for success. Hopefully it will work out for you but if it doesn't then you'll have no, or fewer, regrets and second-guesses.

Yeah,

It's hard choice because I've already worked so hard and the thought of paying so much money for something that may not even succeed is always eating away at the back of my mind.

But as you both said, I have to give it the best chance of success and it will all be worth it in the end. I am already very proud of the work and research I've put into the novel and the whole reason I created it in t he first place was because i wanted to give sci fi lovers like myself ( who want some realism in their fantasy writing) a universe and character they deserved.

As discussed in many of the previous posts in this thread there is a lot of sub par stuff out there which has been very successful, but there is no accounting for taste. I believe in my story and it should be the best version it can be.

Thanks for your support.
 
Yeah,

It's hard choice because I've already worked so hard and the thought of paying so much money for something that may not even succeed is always eating away at the back of my mind.

Look at it this way: In two years, will you really regret the money you spent, or will you be glad you got your work out there? For me, I don't regret a dime I spent in the creation of my own work, although I admit I didn't always spend the "marketing budget" as wisely as I might!
 
The established author advised me that due to the meteoric rise of self published ebooks and the decline in demand for hard copy books, publishers presently are very reluctant to take on new "unproven" authors.

This is not necessarily an accurate reading of the market. You're in Australia, so certain factors might be different, but the English self-publish e-book market is global. And the self-publish e-book market has not had a meteoric rise. There has been a large rise in the number of people doing self-published e-books, but the majority of them don't sell very many copies. Self-published books make up a small percentage of the e-book market, which itself makes about 20-25% of the overall book market. So that's a small slice. It can be a very workable slice; it's been a successful one for a small percentage of self-publishing authors, but it is no danger of wiping out the rest of the book market. It's true that hardcover book sales are generally down, and mass market paperback sales are more down -- since a lot of their sales went to the e-book versions of books coming out from publishers, but trade paperback sales are up. And SFFH sales are up, as is YA, which has a large SFFH contingent. YA SFFH has been very successful in Australia.

Publishers utterly depend on finding new authors. New authors get booksellers to take a gamble on orders, and as such can be more effective often than mid-list authors. However, periodically, depending on economic conditions, publishers will belt tighten, meaning that they will cut mid-listers from their list and take on fewer new people, ones they think have the best shot in the market. We are currently in one of those times, so your author friend is not necessarily wrong in that it is harder to get a deal. But that doesn't mean that deals aren't going on.

That being said, getting a publisher (or agent, but you don't seem to use agents as much in Australia,) takes time and work and time. And some authors don't want to wait to get into the market. So they may turn to self-publishing and sticking mostly to e-publishing. If they do that, it's also a lot of work, more work than partnering with the publisher, but also of course more control. Self-publishers face difficulties in getting reviews and pr resources because there's simply too many of them. And self-publishing e-books gets into fewer vendors than publishers doing e-books and print (and are also working on a different bookselling system than publishers.) So even though you get into the market faster, it may take a fair amount of time to get an audience. It also costs more, especially these days with electronic submissions.

If you're going to self-publish, then obviously it is in your best interest to hire a free-lance editor -- who will developmentally edit your work, not "assess" it. Even when you are an author working with a publisher, you might do this. Half my clients when I free-lance edited were authors working with publishers. (They don't get a lot of editing and copy-editing from publishers these days.) However, free-lance editors are a luxury item. If you can't afford them, then relying on volunteer beta readers has proven to be a workable method. The book may not be as strong or it may be sufficient. The big thing you want to catch are inconsistencies -- things you set up in the story and then you contradict yourself accidentally. Likewise, it's great to have a copy-editor -- if you can afford it. If those fees are going to create hardship for you (because you are unlikely to earn them back,) then you probably are going to want to wait to invest in those services until you have sufficient funds. The reality is that while readers may notice a lot of typos, they're not going to check your grammar (because there is no proper grammar in fiction, on purpose,) and they may be perfectly happy with what you've cooked up. They aren't English teachers (well, most of them aren't.) So while those services can be helpful, even valuable, expediency wins out. As a business person, you have to decide what your business can afford as initial investments and what it can't.
 

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