Is it Grimdark or is it not?

Kingsman

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From my wanders around the internet, to me Grimdark seems to be a highly subjective term and it gets thrown into reviews a lot. So I thought it might be interesting to list some recent series/books to see how you guys think.

The First Law Trilogy - Abercrombie - Yes and depressing.

The Broken Empire Trilogy - Lawrence - Yes

The Grimm Company - Luke scull - No, more Gemmellesque for me

Night Angel Trilogy - Weeks - No, Just ins't that dark in tone for me

Raven's Shadow Trilogy - Anythony Ryan - No, just damn good ;)

The Dagger and the Coin Series - Daniel Abraham - No, traditional

Demon Cycle - Peter V Brett - From he first two books, no.

aSoiF - GRMM - yes and no:eek:

Add more, discuss etc:cool:
 
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It's really hard. My first book was sort of labelled grimdark by reviewers and I'm not sure it is - it's just a harsh world with some pretty gritty scenes dispersed between moments of non-grimness, and romance and space pilots and, you know... Life. I don't mind the label, but I fear if people pick up the book hoping for grimdark through and through they'll be disappointed - especially since most of my horror is psychological.

Anyhow, of those above that I've read I'd class Lawrence, Abercrombie (sometimes, I'm not sure for instance the Shattered Sea is entirely grimdark) and Martin as Grimdark. The others are more subjective. But that's what genre is, subjective.
 
Grimdark does seem an extremely subjective descriptor for a subgenre. I'm rather new to the term, having discovered it through the books/stories of folks like Tim Marquitz (Dirge, Demon Squad) and Rob Hayes (Ties That Bind trilogy). There are so many new authors I need to dive into.
 
Noir, nihilistic, violent soldier fantasy in various flavors from barbarian warrior to political opera is a long standing tradition in epic fantasy (as well as in other kinds of fantasy.) From Robert E. Howard to Michael Moorcock and Stephen King's Dark Tower, to Glen Cook and David Gemmell to George Martin's Song and Steven Erikson, it's been a perennial constant in fantasy.

Sometimes a group of writers happen, sometimes consciously and other times accidentally, to be writing material that is very similar in setting, tone, theme, language use, etc. around the same time, and a number of those authors will sell well and get a lot of attention. When that happens, it's a genre movement -- a literary movement of similar writing -- and often in SFF also a sub-category -- a bookselling label of general content that helps readers find books (such as cyberpunk in the 1980's.) So it was with grimdark, a movement that started about the mid-oughts and which formed accidentally but from writers trying out similar stuff then. The writers who were seen as being in similar boats might have gotten called noir epic fantasy or nihilist fantasy or something like that, but as it happens, a term borrowed from games, grimdark, was bandied about by various people instead and eventually that's what the group of authors were called, even by their publishers. Their work was specifically dark fantasy in a secondary world that is usually pre-industrial, with gallows humor, nihilistic noir themes, heavy military violence, gothic monsters and elements of madness and savagery.

Grimdark authors include Joe Abercrombie (affectionately nicknamed Lord Grimdark,) Mark Lawrence, Richard K. Morgan's fantasy work, Brandon Sanderson, Peter Brett, R. Scott Bakker's fantasy work, Andy Remic, Adrian Tchaikovsky and Brent Weeks. Authors like Sam Sykes, Scott Lynch, Patrick Rothfuss and Douglas Hulick are sometimes considered to be on the edge of grimdark, kind of part of it, but are seen as lighter grittier rogue anti-hero fantasy, more in the tradition of Fritz Lieber. Women have been largely shut out of being seen as part of the movement, but occasionally a woman author like Karen Miller is mentioned as sort of grimdark, in the neighborhood, and that seems to be what Jo has run into with her work.

The idea of grimdark in SF has been played around with but not really is a feature, seeing as what would be considered grimdark SF has already been termed cyberpunk and SF horror. Contemporary fantasy and horror are full of grimdark elements already, so there's not really a nucleus there. Historical fantasy that qualifies tends to just get lumped in with the secondary world grimdark.

As a literary genre movement, grimdark is basically done. The nucleus of authors existed, some rising to prominence and bringing SF media and lit analysis attention to all, and they keep going and will always be considered part of the movement, but movements don't add on authors forever. It is a thing of its time period. As a sub-category, however, grimdark is firmly established as a term and will continue to be bestowed on various authors, by their publishers, booksellers, and/or fans and reviewers, for some time to come. Just as Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash was considered to renew cyberpunk, so too are slightly newer authors like Luke Scull, Anthony Ryan and Brian McCellan going to be seen as heirs, new extenders of grimdark, in the sub-category firmly or loosely. A nucleus of neo or new grimdark or under some other term might be seen as forming a new, descendant but slightly different genre movement down the road. These terms are just ways to talk about fantasy and what authors are trying out. They describe things only, provide points for discussion, and do not limit fiction in any way.

Authors don't get much of a say in whether they will be called part of the movement or sub-category or not. As a tonal, stylistic and thematic approach, grimdark is interesting and fun. It is neither taking over fantasy fiction or secondary world fantasy, nor is it likely to wane since that sort of style is always popular. It's a tricky dark fantasy balancing act of gothic horror, dark satire, tragedy, western, battle fiction and political opera. Other flavors of epic fantasy mix grimdark tone and theme elements with other things. There will be and is further experimentation with those mixes.

This is, again, not a new thing, not a "sudden" breaking reaction from Tolkien. It's been going on since the Weird Fiction genre movement in the late 1800's and it was a favored and highly visible area of fantasy in the 1960's through to today. But the grimdark movement itself was a nucleus of authors in the mid-oughts to early teens who shared a large chunk of common stylistic, thematic and content attributes, and which still has interesting things to say. And the new authors who will jump off from the grimdark movement, just as those authors jumped off from Cook, Martin and Erikson, will go new places with still a nice amount of noir nihilism, grit, Goth and axe hacking.
 
That was my reaction as well, Ryan - an outlier in an otherwise excellent post by KatG.

I personally don't think it is always, even usually, either/or. Grimdark is more of a thematic tone, so authors and books have different degrees of it.

I do think the modern grimdark period was led by Martin's ASoIF, which in a way was a bit reactionary from the more traditional epic fat fantasies of Jordan, Goodkind, Eddings, etc. A whole generation of writers came of age with Martin's ASoIF as their guiding light.
 
Here's another thought or question. If grimdark represents one extreme, what can we call the other? Happylight? Fluffycrystalfairyunicornwings?
 
KatG writes a gazillion word detailed analysis of Grimdark, and all we come away with is.."You think Sanderson is Grimdark???":eek:

I personally don't think it is always, even usually, either/or. Grimdark is more of a thematic tone, so authors and books have different degrees of it.
So you wouldn't describe it as a subgenre?
Sometimes a group of writers happen, sometimes consciously and other times accidentally, to be writing material that is very similar in setting, tone, theme, language use, etc. around the same time, and a number of those authors will sell well and get a lot of attention. When that happens, it's a genre movement -- a literary movement of similar writing -- and often in SFF also a sub-category -- a bookselling label of general content that helps readers find books (such as cyberpunk in the 1980's.) So it was with grimdark, a movement that started about the mid-oughts and which formed accidentally but from writers trying out similar stuff then. The writers who were seen as being in similar boats might have gotten called noir epic fantasy or nihilist fantasy or something like that, but as it happens, a term borrowed from games, grimdark, was bandied about by various people instead and eventually that's what the group of authors were called, even by their publishers. Their work was specifically dark fantasy in a secondary world that is usually pre-industrial, with gallows humor, nihilistic noir themes, heavy military violence, gothic monsters and elements of madness and savagery.
Until I read a previous topic in witch KatG mentioned Grimdark I was always under the assumption the term was just a way people were describing authors that had a similar grim and dark tone as George R R Martin's(GRRM) A Song of Ice and Fire (GRRMDARK). Was/Am I the only one?
 
No, grimdark preceeded GRRM, he just brought it to more prominence - as to grimdark in sf, Warhammer 4k would be recognised as such.

It's interesting what Kat says about women being represented in grimdark - could be a fascinating study about why not. Is it about what women write, or the genre not being open to them? Personally, I lean to the first but that's a gut instinct rather than on any researched basis.
 
Jo,

A thought: KatG indicates that "grimdark" is generational but also that "grimdark" is a repackaging of noir. If noir is a modernization of Gothic (my theory, though I think Kat partly agreed with it in the past), then there's no reason women can't write it. Dorothy Hughes, Leigh Brackett, and many others were mystery writers in the hardboiled/noir genre way back when. Patricia Highsmith wasn't noir exactly insofar as using the furniture of the noir mystery, but was probably one of the darker writers of that time period. A bit further back, Mary Shelley and Anne Radcliffe were among the best known and most successful writers of Gothic, and probably the most successful (both commercially and artistically) 20th century writer of Gothic was Daphne Du Maurier.

I haven't read secondary world/epic/Tolkeinesque/Martinian fantasy -- too many series, too little time -- but a lot of what KatG said sounded like grimdark could also be an extension of, variation on Sword'n'Sorcery. And if that's a fair interpretation, one of the leading practitioners early on was C. L. Moore.

It's always possible that the reading public that bandies around the grimdark label and is vocal enough to determine (or seem to determine) what is called grimdark doesn't want to include women writers. Over time that changes; the reading public grows up, the works of writers overlooked at the time get reassessed, ___ (a blank for inclusion of factors I'm not thinking of :) ).

Or maybe the current generation of women writers of fantasy just are not interested in going in that direction. If so, as Kat also indicates, generational movements have ripple effects and later writers may come along and adopt and adapt features of grimdark for their own purposes.

Randy M.
 
It's a hard one to answer. I've had nothing but welcomes from the grimdark mags and what not, so there doesn't feel to be an anti-female reticence in place. But, of course, that's at the fan level.

But your last point is interesting. I think what I did with the grimdark feel if you like (and there are themes, like torture, and foreboding, and a pretty gritty world) was different (but I was working on this a long time before I encountered grimdark) in that I took the psychological rather than the gory route to showing the grittiness. I don't know if that's a female thing, but it's a me thing.

I didn't set out to write a grimdark book, nor do I think I did. I did write a dark book. I think Kat had it closest - it's a popular genre at the moment, and things around it get sucked into the sphere of the feel of the moment, almost. So I have a feel of it, in places (and not others, because most of my book really isn't grim), and that's enough for some people to say 'hey, it's grimdark...' And I'm glad to get the chance to explore it because I'm not comfortable operating within a label without fully understanding it, and this gives me more room to question if I really am operating within it. (The answer, from reading this thread, is no, but I'm possibly on the edges of it. Or, even, am on the cusp of where grimdark could go - to the psychological exploration of the theme of grimness, if you like.)

But, if Rothfuss and what not get drawn into it as a genre, even to the edges of it, maybe the question is asking ourselves how narrow the genre really is? (And, actually, Sanderson's worlds can be pretty dark, if not always his depiction of it - is it about the world more than the action? If so, that widens it into dark fantasy. But if it's the depiction, grittiness and overt showing of it, then I think that makes it a more niche thing.)

Sorry, that was all a bit waffly and didn't entirely address your point, Randy, which was a good one. But it all felt important to me to spin out the thoughts within. :o
 
Sorry, that was all a bit waffly and didn't entirely address your point, Randy, which was a good one. But it all felt important to me to spin out the thoughts within. :eek:

No problem, Jo. The issue has a sort of academic interest for me, but for you it's more personal, an aesthetic concern that has an impact on your writing and/or your perception of your writing as well as concern about the perception of your writing by others. "Thinking aloud" about it is a good way to work it out and that has academic interest for me as well. :)

Your mention of the psychological approach, that's what I was trying to say about Patricia Highsmith, at least in what little I've read by her. Maybe three are readers for whom grim and dark means physical violence, but I've read quite a bit where the psychological aspects of a story were plenty grim and dark.

Randy M.
 
Brandon Sanderson? Grimdark? I don't think so.

Sanderson is sometimes seen as being on the edge of grimdark, like Lynch, but as a prominent author who uses a lot of grimdark elements and themes, and with his starting with Mistborn, he's often presented as part of the movement. I'm sure the academics will have lots of nice discussions about it down the road.

I do think the modern grimdark period was led by Martin's ASoIF,

Nope, he's just their grandfather ancestor. I'm sure a lot of the grimdark authors have been inspired by Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, but they've also been inspired by Howard's Conan, Michael Moorcock's Elric, King's Dark Tower, D&D and Warhammer games, horror and dark fantasy writers like Clive Barker, and writers like China Mieville, Matt Stover, Stephen Donaldson, and Guy Gavriel Kay. Dark and nihilistic fantasy have been around a long time and have been highly successful. Martin did not lead a reactionary movement from Tolkien -- his Song series came about after thirty years of fantasy writing from Lord of the Rings. Let's not make dozens of major, prominent authors of the seventies-nineties disappear just because it sounds good.

Likewise, Martin was not called grimdark in 1996 when Games came out. (Bear in mind that he was better known as a science fiction writer than a fantasy one in 1996, though he'd written fantasy too.) No one in written fantasy was called grimdark. Instead, the term was used in games and came from the tagline and marketing for the game Warhammer 40,000 back in the late 1980's. It started being used in the oughts about various sec world fantasy writers like Abercrombie, Bakker and Weeks. If things had gone differently with the New Weird genre movement in the late 1990's to 2005, they might have just been folded into that, but that was also of its time, which had passed, and the grimdark authors were doing something slightly different, so people came up with a new term for it. It's not a new type of fiction that no one had ever seen versions of before, however. They never are.

But the particular themes, style, and emphasis on particular content -- mainly horror monsters, very graphic violent battle action, political dystopia, and nihilistic failures of redemption in anti-hero and villain main characters -- those were identifiable as a core that several authors who were getting a good reception were using to one degree or another around the same time. Other terms that were floated around for it were nihilistic fantasy, gritty fantasy and dystopian fantasy, but grimdark was the one that stuck, which is usually what happens.

Women write grimdark fantasy and were around in the time period. But there is a cultural expectation unfortunately, a myth if you will that still has social weight, that women are usually inherently inferior at writing violent battle action, and dark, gritty amoral horror. (Never mind that women have always been a big part of dark fantasy and some authors like Elizabeth Moon have been in the military.) Women authors in general have a very hard time attracting SFFH media attention if they are writing secondary world fantasy fiction, which is why a lot of them went to contemporary fantasy in the oughts. And so women authors who might be considered part of grimdark were not necessarily called grimdark, were not discussed and presented as grimdark authors. Instead they might be called dark fantasy, gritty fantasy, horror, etc. But sometimes, some women authors like Karen Miller and Mazarkis Williams have been mentioned as grimdark and it might happen more often as things evolve, as happened to Jo. (Remember, grimdark is now a stylistic sub-sub-category in the sub-category of secondary world fantasy. It will be thrown around as a term a good bit, and also sometimes outside of secondary world fantasy as we've seen.) Authors like Robin Hobb, J.V. Jones and C.S. Friedman are also seen as ancestors/inspirers for grimdark writing, as well as books like Mary Gentle's Grunts.

A sub-genre is another word for sub-category -- it means a bookselling category that also works as a common reference term. A subgenre/category is secondary world fantasy of the category fantasy. A sub-sub-genre or category is a smaller set of general content, that is part of a sub-genre/category, like fantasy-of-manners in historical fantasy/secondary world 1800's like fantasy. Fantasy likes to group its subgenre categories by setting mostly, including atmosphere/tone of setting. So it has secondary world (a non-Earth world,) contemporary/urban fantasy (contemporary Earth or alt Earth,) historical/alt history fantasy (historical or alt historical Earth,) futuristic fantasy (in which the fantasy occurs in a future time of Earth, including in space and post-apocalyptic scenarios,) portal/multiverse fantasy (some sort of transport between worlds including often Earth in different dimensions,) fantasy horror (horror that uses fantasy elements for its horror,) dark fantasy (fantasy that has a dark, Gothic, dread-filled, horror infused atmosphere, themes and setting,) and comic/satiric fantasy (fantasy with a satiric humorous atmosphere ranging from broad farce to dark tragicomic satire.) The last four obviously could take place in a historical, contemporary, futuristic or non-Earth setting -- they cross since portal/multiverse has multiple settings and the others concentrate on the atmosphere side of place. (Science fiction organizes its sub-genres by type of science/tech in the story, which can be setting related.)

There is also YA fantasy which is a sub-subgenre/category of the category of YA fiction, in a different market -- the YA/children's market. YA fantasy doesn't usually break itself up much into sub-categories and gets referred to just as YA fantasy a lot of the time. However, with YA so large and more media attention given to it, that's been changing. All the types of fantasy fiction we see in the adult market for fantasy fiction, you'll find in YA too, and of course YA and adult fantasy titles often get talked about together.

We also use the term genre to refer to specific genre movements that appear to crop up at different times. Sometimes these genre movements then also operate as sub-sub-genres in bookselling and fandom: cyberpunk, steampunk, magic realism, fantasy-of-manners, Weird fiction, New Weird, and it can become pretty endless as people like to play around with descriptions. But the descriptions are meant to serve as tools of reference and discussion. Genre movements may stay mainly in one type of setting, or they may cross as an atmosphere.

Grimdark is basically a sub-subgenre of dark fantasy that was mainly limited to secondary world settings, and again, usually pre-industrial ones. Essentially, the image of the grizzled barbarian beserker warrior, sitting on a rock in the rain leaning on his battle axe handle while a monstrous shadow looms towards him in the background and a soldier's split corpse lies at his feet -- that's the logo of grimdark. It's a very old logo -- they didn't invent it, but they were trying out particular themes and styles with it. How dark and grim each author got varies, but there's enough commonality between them that people grouped them together as conceptually and stylistically related. And then we contrast and compare other authors, past and present, to that nucleus seen in the movement and trace the patterns and differences of what writers are trying. We can say there's a line that reaches from Howard to Moorcock to Donaldson and Gemmell to Cook and Kay to Martin's Song and Erikson to Abercrombie, and look at it.

The "opposite" of grimdark doesn't really exist because these movements and sub-categories aren't really in opposition to each other. It's more fluid and thematic. But essentially, it would be comic/satiric fantasy -- Robert Asprin's M.Y.T.H. Inc., etc. that would be the most opposite a lot of the time. But bear in mind that comic/satiric fantasy as a general sub-category includes very dark satire and dark satire is frequently used in grimdark as a key element.

Is this helping or getting more confusing?
 
The "opposite" of grimdark doesn't really exist

Nonsense. We've already established the opposite is fluffycrystalfairyunicornwings.

I agree with much of what you've written. I think the reason this issue keeps coming up is that the "grimdark movement" is really just impossible to practically define without context. Times, and the literature that accompanies those times, have certainly changed through the ages. No one will argue that dark and tragic themes have always been around in our stories. I remember The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne to be a pretty grim tale. Nevertheless, it is hardly a graphic novel in the way that many of the current grimdark offerings seem to be. I've never read him, but it's a safe bet to say that GRRM would never have been published in 1850.

So I think it's reasonable to argue that there is a modern grimdark movement, and the evolving standards of the late 20th and early 21st centuries allowed it to be the successful sub-genre that is today. Or the evolving standards created it - however you'd like to address the causation issue is okay with me. But I do think that the graphic rendering of rape, torture, other violence, malevolent good guys, etc. separate modern grimdark from the grimdark of 1850. Or 1950. And that graphic-ness, or at least the ubiquity of that graphic-ness, makes it unique. Or at least the makes the popular appeal of such literature unique.
 
Nope, he's just their grandfather ancestor. I'm sure a lot of the grimdark authors have been inspired by Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, but they've also been inspired by Howard's Conan, Michael Moorcock's Elric, King's Dark Tower, D&D and Warhammer games, horror and dark fantasy writers like Clive Barker, and writers like China Mieville, Matt Stover, Stephen Donaldson, and Guy Gavriel Kay. Dark and nihilistic fantasy have been around a long time and have been highly successful.

Yes, I hear and agree with that, but I think you mistook what I was saying, which is that many of the contemporary grimdark authors were strongly influenced by Martin, who was in a way a precursor to the "grimdark movement."

Martin did not lead a reactionary movement from Tolkien -- his Song series came about after thirty years of fantasy writing from Lord of the Rings. Let's not make dozens of major, prominent authors of the seventies-nineties disappear just because it sounds good.

I didn't say Martin "lead a reactionary movement from Tolkien," but that his work was reactionary to the more traditional epic fantasy authors like Jordan, Goodkind, and Eddings - I never mentioned Tolkien.

I don't even think that Martin was intentionally reactionary against those authors. But I do think that he probably thought something like, "Wow, those guys are making a killing on writing big fat fantasy - I should give it a shot, but I'm going to do something different, something edgier."

Likewise, Martin was not called grimdark in 1996 when Games came out. (Bear in mind that he was better known as a science fiction writer than a fantasy one in 1996, though he'd written fantasy too.) No one in written fantasy was called grimdark. Instead, the term was used in games and came from the tagline and marketing for the game Warhammer 40,000 back in the late 1980's. It started being used in the oughts about various sec world fantasy writers like Abercrombie, Bakker and Weeks. If things had gone differently with the New Weird genre movement in the late 1990's to 2005, they might have just been folded into that, but that was also of its time, which had passed, and the grimdark authors were doing something slightly different, so people came up with a new term for it. It's not a new type of fiction that no one had ever seen versions of before, however. They never are.

Yeah, I hear that. It is like a tide that goes out and then comes in again, in a slightly different form.

But the particular themes, style, and emphasis on particular content -- mainly horror monsters, very graphic violent battle action, political dystopia, and nihilistic failures of redemption in anti-hero and villain main characters -- those were identifiable as a core that several authors who were getting a good reception were using to one degree or another around the same time. Other terms that were floated around for it were nihilistic fantasy, gritty fantasy and dystopian fantasy, but grimdark was the one that stuck, which is usually what happens.

To be honest I find the term irritating, although it might be because I find those themes to be a bit irritating, selling themselves as "adult" when they are more adolescent in their obsession with "the darker side of things."

Now what I find worrying is that grimdark has dominated epic fantasy for a decade or more, it seems. I do think this has a lot to do with the popularity of Martin, his influence, and in the last five years, the HBO show. Grimdark is in. I do hope that it will fade, though, or at least we will see a new wave of less grimdark-focused epic fantasy.

Grimdark is basically a sub-subgenre of dark fantasy that was mainly limited to secondary world settings, and again, usually pre-industrial ones. Essentially, the image of the grizzled barbarian beserker warrior, sitting on a rock in the rain leaning on his battle axe handle while a monstrous shadow looms towards him in the background and a soldier's split corpse lies at his feet -- that's the logo of grimdark. It's a very old logo -- they didn't invent it, but they were trying out particular themes and styles with it. How dark and grim each author got varies, but there's enough commonality between them that people grouped them together as conceptually and stylistically related. And then we contrast and compare other authors, past and present, to that nucleus seen in the movement and trace the patterns and differences of what writers are trying. We can say there's a line that reaches from Howard to Moorcock to Donaldson and Gemmell to Cook and Kay to Martin's Song and Erikson to Abercrombie, and look at it.

Yes to all of this. I like how you establish that grimdark is basically sub-genre of dark fantasy, or maybe simply dark fantasy in a new guise.

That said, I don't see Kay in that line. Kay's fantasy is mature, it isn't "grimdark" in that it doesn't fetishize dark/edgy elements like most grimdark does. (Actually, I think that could be one way of defining and differentiating grimdark: in that it fetishizes dark elements; in that regard, R Scott Bakker is grimdark but Kay is not).

The "opposite" of grimdark doesn't really exist because these movements and sub-categories aren't really in opposition to each other. It's more fluid and thematic. But essentially, it would be comic/satiric fantasy -- Robert Asprin's M.Y.T.H. Inc., etc. that would be the most opposite a lot of the time. But bear in mind that comic/satiric fantasy as a general sub-category includes very dark satire and dark satire is frequently used in grimdark as a key element.

I hope you realize that I was joking. But if we are going to take it seriously, then I do think we could say that there is an opposite to grimdark, a "light-and-fluffy" approach that, in light of my definition above of fetishizing dark elements, fetishizes the lighter, happier elements of fantasy - like unicorns, elven glades, wish fulfillment, etc.

Is this helping or getting more confusing?

Don't know, but it is interesting!
 
I didn't say Martin "lead a reactionary movement from Tolkien," but that his work was reactionary to the more traditional epic fantasy authors like Jordan, Goodkind, and Eddings - I never mentioned Tolkien.

I don't even think that Martin was intentionally reactionary against those authors. But I do think that he probably thought something like, "Wow, those guys are making a killing on writing big fat fantasy - I should give it a shot, but I'm going to do something different, something edgier."
What makes a book not Grimdark? The Sword of Truth series has seriously dark stuff all throughout it. The main characters get raped, tortured, enslaved etc and from memory Goodkind doesn't shy away from showing it. So it's full of all the cool stuff the grimdark crowd like, so what's stopping it from being described as Grimdark?
 
What makes a book not Grimdark? The Sword of Truth series has seriously dark stuff all throughout it. The main characters get raped, tortured, enslaved etc and from memory Goodkind doesn't shy away from showing it. So it's full of all the cool stuff the grimdark crowd like, so what's stopping it from being described as Grimdark?

I never read Goodkind so can't really comment. But as I said up-thread, grimdark is a matter of degree, from prancing unicorns in rainbow-filled fairy glens to orcs raping baby seals. I personally find it less useful to label a specific book or author as grimdark, and more useful to consider to what degree it has grimdark elements or themes within it.
 
For me, what generally separates Grimdark from books with dark and gritty elements is the type of people you have as main characters. Grimdark often features antiheroes that are often indistinguishable from villains. It deliberately injects a lot of doubt into issues of morality with these characters.

Stories that aren't Grimdark may feature all kinds of horrible things, but the main characters are either heroes or the more classic antihero (as opposed to modern-day antiheroes like Jorg).
 

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