Writers and their "friends"

I think the conflation of reviews with marketing has been accelerated because of kindle self-publishing and the ease with which you can leave a comment. Some of us grew up reading fair, balanced and unbiased reviews which pointed out what worked, what didn't, and what kind of reader might enjoy that book. Now people ask me to read their book and leave it a review but what they mean is "say something nice" and give it 4 or 5 stars. I wonder whether if I ever meet these people when I have my own book out what will happen...
 
<RANT>
This thread is the perfect place for my story. Right before my dad died, he named me as agent and beneficiary of his stories. He was still alive when the initial publishing process was going on. But died before the final edits could take place.
He died in April and his book was finally released in November.
Still dealing with his death, all of his friends and family knew that this had been his dream, to be traditionally published. I went to everyone who knew him, asking them for support and they said sure, "where can I buy a hard copy of his book?"
"Oh, it's not out for Kobo yet? (We live in Canada)"
Every excuse. I had no idea how little support my dad had from our family. It was compounded by his death, but it was brutal and it was the reason why I would never ask my family first to buy anything. Never mind that places like Amazon will ban reviews if they discover that they have been left by family or friends.
The worst part about this whole thing is that much of my family reads fantasy and science fiction, so it wasn't even as if I was asking them to read outside of their genre.
</RANT>
 
I think everyone deals with grief in different ways. Many of them may still be avoiding thinking about his death and the book, while it honours him, also reminds them of something painful. I'm also sure some of them will be feeling that standard "what if I don't like it? How could I tell Beth?" feeling. Try not to be too harsh - we all respond to grief in different ways.
 
Beth Wagner said:
<RANT>
This thread is the perfect place for my story. Right before my dad died, he named me as agent and beneficiary of his stories. He was still alive when the initial publishing process was going on. But died before the final edits could take place.
He died in April and his book was finally released in November.
Still dealing with his death, all of his friends and family knew that this had been his dream, to be traditionally published. I went to everyone who knew him, asking them for support and they said sure, "where can I buy a hard copy of his book?"
"Oh, it's not out for Kobo yet? (We live in Canada)"
Every excuse. I had no idea how little support my dad had from our family. It was compounded by his death, but it was brutal and it was the reason why I would never ask my family first to buy anything. Never mind that places like Amazon will ban reviews if they discover that they have been left by family or friends.
The worst part about this whole thing is that much of my family reads fantasy and science fiction, so it wasn't even as if I was asking them to read outside of their genre.
</RANT>
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I am sorry to hear this. I would say that I feel your pain, but this is on a whole other level. The things we go through with family, eh? :(
 
Things got so bad for my headspace, after it became evident that none of my family, outside of my parents, was going to bother with my book, that I even considered changing my pen name. I didn't do it (yet), but the idea is still stirring. I think maybe my 'career', as it were, is still young enough where I could do it.

I have a close cousin who likes the genre stuff, and he made a Facebook post maybe a 2-3 months ago, how one of his friends wrote this book, and he is a great writer, so everyone should check it out. My immediate response to this was, "#$%^!!" which was not very helpful, so I kept it to myself.

I replied and said, "You know, your cousin is a good writer, too." He said, "Yes he is," and that was that. I know he never even looked at my book.

This is probably not new to anyone here, I know. But this was the first time that I realized, "You know, maybe my family just isn't as close as I always thought they were?"
 
Wilson Geiger said:
This is probably not new to anyone here, I know. But this was the first time that I realized, "You know, maybe my family just isn't as close as I always thought they were?"
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Oh, you all are killing me. My heart bleeds.

I guess, that's one thing I can be thankful for with my family. If I release something, I know my family will buy my book. They probably won't read it, but they will ALL buy it (sisters, brothers, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, family that's related because of weird stuff, etc). That's just the way we roll. So, I guess, in their own way, that's their support. I should be thankful for that.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe they won't... (palm slaps head) ...of course they won't.

Okay okay (stop hyperventilating, she says to herself). We have to be strong for each other, people! :D
 
It seems I'm the odd duck here. Apart from being left alone while writing, I don't want any support from my family. The last time I wanted my family to read my stories was during my late teen years. And even then I wouldn't show them everything. Part of the reason I've decided not to publish is that I can't stop family and friends from reading published stuff. I don't have the sort of friends who can separate the person from the story. Sometimes they'll read deeper into stuff that's just superficially similar to the shared life. Sometimes they'll catch traces of... uncomfortable feelings I'd rather keep to myself because I know they'll cause problems.

"Janine, Janine, you'd like to know me well,
But I've got things inside my head
That even I can't face," (David Bowie, "Janine" [lyrics])
 
Dawnstorm said:
It seems I'm the odd duck here. Apart from being left alone while writing, I don't want any support from my family. The last time I wanted my family to read my stories was during my late teen years. And even then I wouldn't show them everything. Part of the reason I've decided not to publish is that I can't stop family and friends from reading published stuff. I don't have the sort of friends who can separate the person from the story. Sometimes they'll read deeper into stuff that's just superficially similar to the shared life. Sometimes they'll catch traces of... uncomfortable feelings I'd rather keep to myself because I know they'll cause problems.

"Janine, Janine, you'd like to know me well,
But I've got things inside my head
That even I can't face," (David Bowie, "Janine" [lyrics])
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Pen name?
 
Facing said:
Pen name?
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That wouldn't work for people I'm living with. I wouldn't want to bother keeping it a secret. Too much of a hassle. (It's also not the only reason I don't publish. Another is that I don't want the pressure of a profession to spoil my hobby for me. I'm not really writing to be read. That's not to say that being read can't give a motivation boost. It's complicated.)
 
An interesting topic.

I don't let anyone read my work except my wife, who I consider to be my primary editor. She is very fair when it comes to my writing - if it sucks, she'll say - it sucks, delete it, start over. And when she likes it, she likes it.

I don't believe in getting feedback from people BEFORE it's written - you defeat the purpose of people actually reviewing a finished work. They can only sidetrack you, and the family often do not have the right tools/knowledge to critique books on a professional level. Not the prose. Stuff like consistency, contradictions, storytelling, overall flow, whether your chapters have logical ends, etc.

Well, that's my side of it.

Igor
 
Igor said:
I don't believe in getting feedback from people BEFORE it's written - you defeat the purpose of people actually reviewing a finished work. They can only sidetrack you, and the family often do not have the right tools/knowledge to critique books on a professional level.
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I couldn't agree more. I suspect this is in part an aspect of the domination of the internet in our lives. Too many authors are desperate for praise, and can't wait until they have a finished product. In the past I've put up a couple possible intros to novels on another forum, but I've stopped doing even that now. Finished, honed and re-honed work is where it's at.
 
Stephen Palmer said:
Finished, honed and re-honed work is where it's at.
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I understand that. And I am guilty of sharing stuff far too soon, but after I consider something finished and polished, it would be nice to get some feedback. Which is why I think we (in desperation) turn to those closest to us for confirmation.

As much as we all know we shouldn't do it, we still do. It is a hard thing to resist.

But I'm slowly learning to back off my friends and family. If they ever express interest, I know I'll jump at the opportunity, but for now, I simply bite my nails and try to appear unfazed.
 
This thread has been interesting to read, and a little bit heartbreaking too. Charlotte, are you still with that guy? I don't know any details other that what you posted, but that relationship sounds toxic as f**k to me.

So, my perspective, if anyone cares:

I'm trade published. My books are in the stores for sale to general public, and I don't pester my family to buy them. I don't really *want* my family to buy my books. Much like Wilson, most of my relatives are deeply religious and what I write obviously isn't going to be their thing.

My aunt, bless her, at nearly 80 years old, bought my first book out of some weird sense of obligation, and obviously she hated it. She was appalled by it, I think. She actually had a rant at my dad about what sort of man he'd raised. My dad, also deeply religious, soldiered through about half if it but he obviously hated it too and he hasn’t read any of the others.

That’s absolutely fine. 80 year old evangelical Christians really aren’t my target audience.

What I would say is, if you read a book please leave a review. Yes, even if you hate it. I don’t mind if you hate it, that’s your choice and I can respect that. Leave a one star review, if that’s how you feel about it. Your reviews aren’t for me anyway.

Reviews are for other readers, and even a terrible review (I think I said this already in another thread recently) can be great for me. If you say you hate my book because it’s too dark and too nasty and too violent for you, that’s cool. People who like dark and violent and nasty books might see that review and decide the book is their sort of thing, and go pick it up. I’ve bought books off the back of bad reviews that made me think I’d like it, and I dare say others have done the same.

I don’t have much to say about writing groups – I’ve never been a member of one, and the only other authors I know in real life are people I’ve met at cons who are already published themselves. I’m very, *very* lucky to have an amazingly supportive wife who reads my stuff even though it’s not always her sort of thing (she mostly prefers straight crime fiction), and a few people I know off the Internet who beta read for me sometimes (Chris, Nila, thank you!), but that’s it. I don’t even really know what writers groups do, or why I’d want to be a member of one.

One thing I do strongly believe though is that the “taking in each other’s laundry” culture of some self-pub / e-pub authors where people agree to swap 5 star reviews for each other is both useless and misleading to the end reader.

Thoughts?
 
I don't disagree with any of that, Pete. I think the central theme in this thread is simply that strong criticism from people we are close to risks damaging that relationship. So we can choose to avoid that conflict, or accept it and be okay with losing a friend sometimes because it is hard for anyone to maintain a relationship with someone who thinks you're incompetent and deluded.
 
PeteMC said:
Thoughts?
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All sounds healthy to me -- aside from fevered religiosity, that is, which is not something that I'm generally in favour of, and which inspires limitless sympathy in me for those who must endure it at a mere one remove, whatever their own beliefs. It also reminds me how fortunate I am in having a family that is small and friendly. I'm probably the most thorny member, but there's never been bad blood between any of us beyond juvenile squabbles. A couple of the significant others had a brief clash half a year ago, and it was a real rock-the-boat moment while it lasted, since as a unit we simply had no experience of such things (we'd probably be the Perfect Middle-Class Neighbour Family in everyone else's crazy sitcom...).

As for writers groups, I've been in four in total, two currently. One of those is strictly recreational (really, that's the best way I can think to describe it!), the other is a small group which focuses on supportive critique. One of the things I've learned from that latter group is that good developmental feedback isn't only the domain of the best writers; though they are all friends now, I'd say only one of the other members delivers writing I eagerly anticipate reading; one of them I struggle to find anything positive in their fiction output at all; but I respect their opinions when they let me have it, or praise me, or find me bland, whatever.

That's not to say that this group is a perfect tool, though. I've a notion of a more effective format and this one isn't it, the organisers are hung up on a particular focus which I've found progressively less useful after five years or so of regular (from weekly to monthly) meetings. It might be time to branch off and start a few of my own, be they online or face-to-face.
 
RX-79G said:
I think the central theme in this thread is simply that strong criticism from people we are close to risks damaging that relationship. So we can choose to avoid that conflict, or accept it and be okay with losing a friend sometimes because it is hard for anyone to maintain a relationship with someone who thinks you're incompetent and deluded.
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Sure, I get that - my point is that I think as a professional you have to distance yourself from the personal relationship, and take any and all feedback as general consumer feedback.

My aunt hated my book. I know she wouldn’t have been very likely to buy it if she wasn't related to me, but just say that she had for whatever reason. So we have an 80 year old lady who doesn't like my book, and as she doesn't know me she maybe leaves a scathing review somewhere. That's absolutely fine. I can accept that, because it's her opinion and I don't write for 80-year old ladies anyway.

The fact that she *is* my aunt...? I can distance myself from that. She read (some of) the book, so she's a reader. And reader feedback is just that, whoever it comes from. She's still my aunt and I still love her. I'm not going to fall out with her over something as inconsequential as whether or not she liked a book that wasn't aimed at her in the first place.

Maybe she's not a great example.

If my wife hated my book? Again, it's not her usual reading material so she might not like the subject matter, and that's fine.

If she told me I couldn't write to save my fucking life and I should just quit right now? Yeah, I guess that would sting, but again I'm not about to lose a marriage over it. I'm afraid you need a hide like leather in this business, and the sooner you start thickening it up the better.
 
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