What's the difference between a story "idea" versus it's "theme" ?

[A. Lynn]

I've been reading a book called "Yours to Tell," and the writers quip about how different idea is from story theme. But they don't necessarily explain the difference. So I'd like to ask the lot of you? What's the difference?

 

[kmtolan]

I suspect it will be open to conjecture, being subjective. My take on an idea would be a girl who likes a boy and unknown to her, the boy is a construct. The theme would be the interaction between humans and their machines in general, reflected in settings and interactions.

 

[Bestertester]

The idea is what the story is about. The theme is what the idea is about. It's the big picture that lurks in the background of all the action.

For me, anything above a certain length must have a theme, or I'll lose interest. Anything below a certain length probably can't have a theme, because there's no room to develop a theme.

 

[KatG]

For me, anything above a certain length must have a theme, or I'll lose interest. Anything below a certain length probably can't have a theme, because there's no room to develop a theme.

Sure they do. Poems have themes. Limericks are short and have themes. Haikus are even shorter and have themes.

A story idea -- premise -- is related to plot. It's the set-up, the scaffolding around which the story is built. The theme of a story is usually not singular, but there may be one main, central theme to a story, which is related to the story idea (plot premise.) A theme is the meaning which the author explores in the story, sometimes intentionally and sometimes accidentally. (Fiction authors are famous for often not knowing their own themes and one of the reasons it can be difficult to get fiction authors to clearly describe their work is because they don't know its themes and/or how to describe them in the context of the plot premise and characters.)

So take kmtolan's example. The plot premise is that a teenage girl falls for a teenage boy who turns out to be an android. That is the story idea that the story is built around. But what it means, what's going to be explored out of that premise -- the themes -- can vary widely. The theme could be humans' relationships to their machines. The theme could be how can we define identity, sentience and real emotion. The theme could be comic -- that teenage girls often fall for boys their families have difficulty accepting. The theme could be dramatic -- in the course of the love affair, the teenage girl learns about loss and what she values. And the story can have all of those themes together, explored in the one story premise.

If you give the same story idea to different authors, they will probably explore different themes with it. They will certainly have different styles with different uses of language and imagery, which affects how theme -- meaning -- is worked into the story. And readers themselves don't all experience the story idea or its themes the same way. They may see themes that the author didn't intend and/or didn't really do. They may completely miss themes the author intended. They will have preferences about what some material an author may use should mean. The emotional experience and meaning of the story will be different for each reader. So we discuss those interpretations -- the themes, the meanings -- of fictional story as part of the experience of reading the stories. This is a large part of studying literature, along with structure (plot, premise,) and characterization. They're all inter-connected -- and subjective -- but we value those subjective experiences and the discussion about them.

For most authors, theme develops out of playing around with a plot premise, characters or a setting/imagery. However, sometimes authors will start with a theme and come up with a premise, etc. And sometimes genre can impact themes. If you are going to write a romance, then romance will be a central theme the story is built around. But what the romantic themes of the particular premise and story are going to be will vary widely, especially as romances are character studies. If you are writing a mystery, then a central theme will be about trying to solve a mystery, but what the thematic meaning of that search will be will vary widely, etc.

 

[A. Lynn]

Both KatG and KMTolan's examples seem to match what I was grasping at myself.

Because I love food so much, I have a tendency of using food metaphors while trying to grok something otherwise abstract. So I've likened the two ideas to this:

* Idea is the basis of the dish - Is it a chicken dish? A beef dish? A soup?
* But theme is the spice and flavor of that dish - What kind of a chicken dish? One made with curry? One with creme-wine sauce? Or something else entirely.

So like KatG specified - You can give a story premise (or main ingredient) to two authors, but they may "cook" up something entirely different. So I think I had it right. But I still wanted to hear from others

 

[Matt H.]

Sounds like you guys have it nailed down well.

Will chime in to say - not sure what was meant by the original statement about ideas and themes, but for me, "idea" is strongly associated with the genesis of a work. And if you think about it, the idea (kernal) can easily be thematic or plot-centered. I might say... "hmm.. I want to write a story that explores 'self' and 'other', and technology..." (theme) OR, you might start with "I want to write a story about a girl who falls for an android." (plot).. But that's probably not what you're talking about?

(added)

Kat, you wrote:
"Fiction authors are famous for often not knowing their own themes and one of the reasons it can be difficult to get fiction authors to clearly describe their work is because they don't know its themes and/or how to describe them"

Wouldn't you also say that a work, can/should achieve independence of its author, and his/her interpretations/intentions? Otherwise, every story is *reduced* to the question - what did the author really mean?? (implications that this is the *correct* interpretation)

 

[Stanley Steamboy]

It might be helpful to understand that idea and theme might have seemingly nothing to do with each other.

E.G. The idea is about robots eating the elderly, but the theme is loyalty.

Or the Venture Brothers, where the idea is what happens when Johnny Quest grows up, but the theme is failure.

 

[KatG]

Kat, you wrote:
"Fiction authors are famous for often not knowing their own themes and one of the reasons it can be difficult to get fiction authors to clearly describe their work is because they don't know its themes and/or how to describe them"

Wouldn't you also say that a work, can/should achieve independence of its author, and his/her interpretations/intentions? Otherwise, every story is *reduced* to the question - what did the author really mean?? (implications that this is the *correct* interpretation)

The reactions of readers are always independent of the author because those are their subjective experiences. Once the author allows other people to read and experience the story, there is no controlling the interpretations of any of the readers. And those interpretations can go in many directions. Patricia Wrede liked to tell the story of how she was invited to a university class to discuss one of her works they were reading. The professor did an introduction and talked about how one particular plot point was a thematic metaphor for various things. And then Patricia spoke and explained that actually the plot point was just the way she figured out how to move the protagonist from one location to another in the story -- mechanics, not theme.

That doesn't change the professor discussing an interpretation of the plot point as metaphorical, but a lot of things authors do, a lot of the words they choose, have practical, mechanical craft reasons for being there. But in doing those, authors may also develop themes and metaphors without immediately realizing it. And even if they don't, readers may interpret them as such. Or they won't and think it's daft when others do, even when the author confirms there was an intended theme.

That discussion, what a work means in general and to us personally, how we see it as being crafted and how social cultural influences influence an author and their work -- that's all the experience, study and discussion of art. It's not supposed to be nor can be uniform. And that's yet again why there are no story-telling or language rules in written fiction.

 

[hscope]

I had an interesting experience at one of my first book talks, when a reader came up to me and praised the various themes included in my first novel, before going on to detail about half a dozen of them. I had absolutely no idea any of them were there and, in fact, hadn't considered theme at any point of the idea formulation or during the writing of the novel.

The encounter reinforced that and I have never worried about theme since. I figure themes will be there anyway, so let someone else find 'em.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I've also had this strange experience of being told what the themes of my novels are. Some of them I had no idea were there... I'd define a work's theme as the idea of its ideas. So, for instance in Memory Seed, the ideas are all green and clashing, but the theme is more why such a situation might develop. The ideas behind my Factory Girl trilogy are all about interactions between different kinds of people and beings (automata), but the theme is what we believe is at the heart of those individuals. The theme of Dune I would say is how humanity interacts with history.

 

[Stanley Steamboy]

The theme of Dune I would say is how humanity interacts with history.

Herbert once said that Dune was about what a real superman (ubermensch) would be like. I don't know if that is theme or idea - but I think that SF can be, in some ways, immune to theme. You can always point to thematic bits (like betrayal) if they pop up more than once, but often SF presents a story that, by its singular nature, does not reflect on the kind of existing human issues that theme is normally drawn from. There have never been supermen, and humanity has always done such an incredibly poor job interacting with history that Dune is easily demonstrating idea without theme. There just might not be an underlying notion that speaks to our real lives in such a book. The characters are in fresh territory and are free from the worries of our circumstance.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Yes, I think what you say is true, but my reading of the books (1 - 6) is that they're steeped in the flow of history. That's my personal reading though. Another reader might say superman, another might say power and empire, a third might say self-knowledge (think of prana bindu, just to name one thing). Perhaps that's the joy of Dune though... lots of themes! It has very few equivalents in the genre. In fact, I can only think of one - The Book Of The New Sun.

 

[Stanley Steamboy]

Yes, I think what you say is true, but my reading of the books (1 - 6) is that they're steeped in the flow of history. That's my personal reading though. Another reader might say superman, another might say power and empire, a third might say self-knowledge (think of prana bindu, just to name one thing). Perhaps that's the joy of Dune though... lots of themes! It has very few equivalents in the genre. In fact, I can only think of one - The Book Of The New Sun.

I wasn't disagreeing with you as much as adding what Herbert had said.

The later books reference 'story/history frequently, and Leto claims to suspend it.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Dune is a fascinating case. There were genre novels dealing with religion and politics before, but it is hard to think of one published prior using so many grown up themes as Dune. No wonder it has stood the test of time and remained a fan favourite. Though I love Lynch's film version, I can't wait to see the new one.

 

[hscope]

Dune is a fascinating case. There were genre novels dealing with religion and politics before, but it is hard to think of one published prior using so many grown up themes as Dune. No wonder it has stood the test of time and remained a fan favourite. Though I love Lynch's film version, I can't wait to see the new one.

I read DUNE for the first time (missed it in my youth for some reason) a couple of months ago and while I found it a little dated and wordy at times, I can see why it's considered a classic and it's filled with wonderful ideas and concepts. I watched the Lynch version straight afterwards - I did see that when it first came out - and thoroughly enjoyed it as I thought it really captured the spirit of the book.

I'm also very much looking forward to the new film.

 

[JamesMaxstadt]

(Fiction authors are famous for often not knowing their own themes and one of the reasons it can be difficult to get fiction authors to clearly describe their work is because they don't know its themes and/or how to describe them in the context of the plot premise and characters.)

Phew. I thought it was just me...

 

[Bestertester]

I've also had this strange experience of being told what the themes of my novels are. Some of them I had no idea were there...

I smell a clue here. What the reader thinks is a theme is not the same as what the writer thinks is a theme. What the reader is calling a theme may be purely subjective. He's simply describing how he reacted to the story as if it were something inherent to the story itself.

When you're writing, only one of these things matters. The other may not even exist until it pops into the reader's head.

No, I don't perceive themes in haiku - unless you consider a mood to be a theme.

I wouldn't contradict what a reader says a story means to him. It means to him what it means to him, and that's his business. If he thinks it's something that has objective existence in the work itself, I might let him go on thinking it - except in these days of cancel culture and dog whistles that can get out of hand quickly.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I smell a clue here. What the reader thinks is a theme is not the same as what the writer thinks is a theme. What the reader is calling a theme may be purely subjective. He's simply describing how he reacted to the story as if it were something inherent to the story itself.

When you're writing, only one of these things matters. The other may not even exist until it pops into the reader's head.

No, I don't perceive themes in haiku - unless you consider a mood to be a theme.

I wouldn't contradict what a reader says a story means to him. It means to him what it means to him, and that's his business. If he thinks it's something that has objective existence in the work itself, I might let him go on thinking it - except in these days of cancel culture and dog whistles that can get out of hand quickly.

That's how I play it. I'm always interested to hear what readers think of the themes of my novels. Every now and again something really interesting or useful pops up. Authors have to get used to this though. Once their works are out in public, they have to be prepared for any and all reactions...