A Feast for Crows - SFFW OFFICIAL SPOILER DISCUSSION

The reigning monarch can declare them legitimate. That would be Dany herself.
 
The big head they sent was the previous High Septon's, who was fat and knew of Cersei's and Jaime's incestual relationship. It seemed clear to me while reading it that it was his, though they don't mention exactly how he died.
 
I like the 'Tyrion Targaryen' theory an awful lot. I didn't tie the 'Tywin leaving Kings landing suddenly' thing with Joanna at all... or the dying 'youre not my son' comment etc. - that theory holds water well.

I'm wondering if anyone has had thoughts on the purpose of Jaimes golden hand?

He's been training hard to get back his fitness. He's always attracted to fighting ("the only time he feels truly alive" or some such quote... can't remember) so if there's a battle of some sort and Jaime is nearby I can't see him doing anything but wade in.

So assuming he gets back enough prowess as a knight to 'not-get-killed' in the first moments of battle, would his golden hand be any use for say catching a flaming sword? Or bashing a nasty old wights head in? Dunno - just seems to me like everything has a purpose in George's world...

And it gets a lot of screen time that hand of his...
 
Hmmm, I haven't thought about that before, tomdk. But the more I think the more I'm convinced you're right. It is too conspicuous to not be true. A lot of screen time indeed.
 
I agree - there must be great plans for Jamie's hand.

I think it's interesting how Jamie was the only person in the book who mentioned that winter is coming... We didn't hear it from the two Starks in the book. So was that on purpose? Because Arya and Sansa are trying to not be Starks, GRRM decided to show how well they were playing their parts by having them not say their house words?
 
i think that whole "fighting makes me truly alive" quote is more of an irony.

this i feel is a different jaime now. working more subtlely or "behind the scenes" than before. the "goldenhand" thing in my speculation:

1 - he will hand over the throne to the new ruler, literally, just like before.

2 - he will be the new ruler's "hand" or

3 - i don't know anymore. i just remember the whole Criston Cole (kingmaker) thing and that's what he probably wants to do.

i hate to say it, seeing that he and Tyrion are my faves in this series, but i think he's gonna die near the end, probably in a kick ass fight. saying something like: "now i am truly alive" or something like that before he wastes away...

people are gonna learn about all the good he's done though, but it might happen after he dies.
 
I think the hand is there as the makings of a new name for him - it gives people something else to remember him for, helps him move a step further fromhis reputation. There could come a point when everyone forgets the Kingslayer and remembers Goldhand.
 
Soarly missing its other half

I just finished this book & can't say much else other than disappointed. I loved the first 3 books. Was excited for this one until I found out that it was only half of the story & all the characters I really like (well most) are not even included in Feast of Crows:( This was one of those "more is not always better." Lot of wasted words in this book. Easily could have edited the 700 pgs to a good 300 pgs & then got to the other characters. Anway, had to vent after finishing this one which I expected better from George Martin. Now we all have to sadly wait till 2007 (but you know we all will :) )
 
how many people think the ultimately jamie will kill cersei? since she said her 'little brother' would kill her..and re reading A Game Of Thrones I saw that he was born after her (holding onto her foot). I think he's going to turn on her.
 
Aquafina said:
how many people think the ultimately jamie will kill cersei? since she said her 'little brother' would kill her..and re reading A Game Of Thrones I saw that he was born after her (holding onto her foot). I think he's going to turn on her.
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After finishing A Storm of Swords I would say 'no' but after A Feast for Crows...I really don't know. Everything is possible with Martin. I really thought Tirion was going to kill her but when I was reading AFFC I began to sway to the same suspicion you have.
 
Laying it down with authority.

This is my second post every. I made a post lack in November and accidentally pissed some one off because it wasnt in a spoiler thread. Hope I'm in the right spot.

1) Tyrion is not a Targaryen. In aGoT Twyin actually said "You are my son" to Tyrion on pg 770 of the paperback when he sent Tyrion to be his acting hand. Tywin does have a habit of saying you aren't my son, its his way. Also it slipped by me so many times but Oberyn was gearing up to fight the Mountain he said that "My brother Doran would be most pleased to meet the rightful heir of Casterly Rock" (p 966 aSoS, paperback) WHOOO. Martells are in it DEEP, they were some off the most loyal vassals of the Targaryens, and Doran planned to marry his daughter to Viserys but he was crowned with molten gold. Which segues into Jamie and Ceseri

2) Jamie and Ceseri are Tarargyen spawn. The get buck nutty like good Targaryens, but also in aFfC Jamie's aunt Genna told Jamie that "Tyrion is Tywins son, not you". Some of you may not that earlier in that passage Gemma is talking about hot Jamie is like Tyg and Kevan, which raises doubts, but im positive that Tywin married his cousin. Later, starting on page 669 (that's hardback y'all), the silent sister, who must be his mother said that his father couldn't stand to be laughed at. Recall in one of the early chapters where were learning about the Ninepenny Kings that Aerys was thrown in a dungeon and mocked. He was rescued by Tywin, but it was the capture that precipitated his decline into madness. The silent sister said that we don't get what we want and Tywin wanted a daughter to be queen and a great knight for a son.

3) The Baratheons are related to the Taragyens. Rheagar called Robert his cousin on pg 118 of aFfC, and the appendix in the end of aGoT says that Orys Baratheon was rumored to be Aegons bastard brother. Additionally Maester Aemon was babbling in aFfC about the bloodlines. I'm getting tired so I'll hunt down pages if I'm challenged.

4) Loras is totally gay. He helped Renly 'pray' before his battle/murder, and when Sansa is offered a marriage to Willias she thinks shes marrying Loras the Queen of Thorns scoffs... I know that Loras was apart of the Kingsgaurd but Olenna knows. She knows.

Thanks Yall, and the name was supposed to be Suiciderun... its my gaming tag. typos....
 
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Found this forum a few days ago and just read the whole thread... A bit of my speculating about some of that theories had to come, nen? XD

Sweet Cersei the Bitch - I must admit I really enjoyed her POV, as relating events in King's Landing. I don't feel any sympathy towards her, but I can't hate her either. She's, well... not nice. A bad girl. Apart from that evil business (looking at Qyburn's doing), she isn't a good queen - and I don't mean by it her decisions only. Not being exactly stupid, she would make a unexceptional Lady, but she fails to see herself objectively, or at least partly objectively. Not everyone in the game of thrones is a genius, the first step seems to be understanding one's own weaknesses. How on earth Cersei was supposed to win, while she considered herself the most intelligent of them all, never having doubts longer than for a while? Besides she is too emotional, as said in someone's - Jaime's? - POV. She loved Jaime, despised (or even hated) Robert, but having her brother's child and not Roberts wasn't a wise move. Let's consider it: even if noone had ever discovered the truth, it would have been pointless to have pureblooded Lannisters - always named Baratheons... Who would know after twin's death? Perhaps Joff or his sibling might have been told, so as to ensure Lannisters/Baratheons will never forget. But the very moment someone had told it aloud, even after few generations, anyone powerful enough would get the perfect reason to destroy the royal family as bastards having no right to the crown. If it's never discovered, it does no good to House Lannister. And risk turned out to be serious... For Lannisters, including Cersei, for Baratheons, generally speaking: for everyone interested, it would have been better if Cersei had been careful not to give birth to some bastards instead of avoiding having children that was needed. While her decision is reasonable as loving woman's, it is unreasonable as queen's. Same goes for her feeling like horse - she screams something about being treated as a body, to produce children. That's not nice, but she can't change the people of Seven Kingdom's views in instant - wise woman could use it. Not being treated as an equal to men by her father makes her think herself better than she is in fact, so she underestimates half the people she deals with. And even if she made a good queen, there would be still Daenerys.

Arya - my favourite one from AGoT, though later I grew to like most of POVs. I don't believe she'll become a faceless woman - she is too much of a Stark for that. Even when she really tried to be Cat, she chose name that resembled the one of her mother's (she did something similar earlier, at Harrenhal?, telling Lord can't-recall-his-name-right-now that her name is Nymeria, but she's called Nan), and called the ship her "father" sailed on Nymeria as well. And she continued to have wolf dreams. She threw away her things, but hid the Needle, planning to get it back one day. IIRC, there were two scenes with old man from the temple telling her that if she can't forget who she is, she can't stay or learn or sth, and in both cases she said that if she wanted to, she could. Noone is perfect - she must fail on something. I believe her training would be partial.
[Ok, maybe it's just because of the fact that I consider her kind of similar to Cirilla/Zireael (a character from some fantasy book that's better not to be read in English - I don't recall hearing about translation being something better than horrible), who as well has learned from a few people at a few places, mixing what she has learned with her own natural "magic" abilities (Arya has wolf dreams).]
At first I suspected that the two swords made from Ice were destined for those two Eddard's children who weren't killed - Arya and Sansa. Well, that was when I didn't believe Bran and Rickon had any chance of surviving. And I wondered what Sansa would do with sword she can't use :). Now my guesses would be Arya and Rickon (Bran being rather unable to fight physically), though I won't risk a bet. With Arya getting Oathbreaker, of course. Ok, maybe she should rename it... mmm... 'Needle' will suit, won't it? XD

Littlefinger - one of "those" characters who know that where neither begging nor threatening works, gold will do. Maybe he'll survive, gaining nothing but experience, leaving for a new game... or we'll see his downfall. I'd love to read his POV, but on the other hand it would be like spoiling half the fun...

Dragons, Rhaegar, Daenerys, all that mystery - the theory I like most is with Jon being Lyanna's son and Aegon (Rhaegar's son) surviving - the only confirmation of his death ever are Mountain's words. There were many speculations as to who could he be... I suppose the most possible is the one with Edrick Dayne, (thought to be?) younger brother of Arthur Dayne (one of the Kingsguard knights who died defending Lyanna in Tower of Joy). He has Targaryen features, purple eyes and silver hair, and told Arya he sometimes sees things in fire. And he was milk brother of Jon Snow, their "mother" being Wylla, girl from Starfall, whose name Ned mentions to Robert - in the other words, everything is ok apart from his age:
"Arya got goosebumps when Lord Beric said her father’s name, but this Ned was only a boy, a fair-haired squire no more than ten or twelve."
Then again, if he was Jon's milk brother he ought to be closer to fourteen than ten or twelve... he might have even been fifteen, as Aegon should be. Arya might have judged him by her own elder brothers, described as tall, and he might have been relatively short or just start growing up rapidly later (which happens). Though would Martin put such an estimation if it was completely wrong? ; ).

Jaime - the last, but not the least... Have you noticed how the irony is exposed in his POVs? Other people's lifes might be harsh, awfull, unlucky, but only he seems to be Fate's toy, from the very beginning when he takes the white cloak, to having to break so many oaths - make so many choices like "betray these or those?", being called Kingslayer with s*** for honor, but having a horse named Honor, calling his sword Oathbreaker in his thoughts, etc. And he pays so much attention to Jeyne Westerling... first time it's mentioned when he thoughts something like "at least she hasn't disappeared", second while talking to her and her mother (making sure she isn't pregnant and that she won't wed too soon, so anyone could have doubts), third while she's leaving - "watch over her, she might be far more dangerous than Tully if she escaped"... Jaime's description of the girl doesn't suit Catelyn's. "Jeyne" is acting as if she's been just told her husband is dead, not some time ago. Blackfish didn't send off Jeyne and her family though they'd been pardoned. He kept the direwolf banner high, and didn't even consider (from others' POVs) leaving Riverrun to Lannisters. Maybe they waited for the baby to be born and wanted to send it off, then pretending Jeyne was never pregnant... but Jaime's intervence changed the situation. Edmure couldn't have known, could he? But then again, they needed someone to play the role of Jeyne... they found some girl, though without much choice, she was neither very similar to ex-queen nor knew enough not to be afraid to talk. Lady Westerling have every right to be distressed, with her pregnant daughter escaping through dangerous land and poor fraud. About her giving contraceptives to her daughter and collaborating with Lannisters - I've understood it otherwise... I think theory "Lord Tywin requested Jeyne to seduce Robb Stark" is a bit too weird. It seems to me that while pardoning Westerlings, Lord Tywin send a message "suggesting" that it would be better for Jeyne not to be pregnant, but Lady Westerling wasn't likely to kill her own daughter's unborn child.
Still think it's crap? Remember (and imagine) the part with Jaime meeting false Arya at Red Keep or wherever it was... She was just leaving, didn't look at him, but at the ground... exactly as "Jeyne" does later, though everyone else behaves normal. I like this detail xD.
Ok, maybe it IS overspeculating. But it is probable, at least ;). And why on earth would Martin write and write and write about Jaime's concerns about Jeyne's possible pregnancy?


/* I'm sorry for what I'm doing with English... it's not my native language... please, don't laugh too much at me ;) */
 
Suicide Rin,

Jaime and Cersei are Tywin's children. What Genna said meant that Tyrion inherited Tywin's intelligence and shrewdness.

is brienne killed?
i hate it how martin alwasy gives the impression some1 is killed, but then they arent.

eg.
something like 'the axe hit arya in the back of the head', but then it turns out it was the flat of the axe?
any1 else realise this?
 
i hate it how martin alwasy gives the impression some1 is killed, but then they arent.

eg.
something like 'the axe hit arya in the back of the head', but then it turns out it was the flat of the axe?
any1 else realise this?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think he actually did that twice with Arya. In GoT when he had night wathman swinging his knife at Arya's head at the end of her last POV chapter it gave the same general effect. In keeping with that trend I'd think that Theon and Davos are probably alive....
 
Not So

Nightsorrow said:
Suicide Rin,

Jaime and Cersei are Tywin's children. What Genna said meant that Tyrion inherited Tywin's intelligence and shrewdness.
Click to expand...

close, but I'm afraid that is not so. There was a passage where Cersei was mocking Jamies beard saying it made him look like Robert and it was silver. I cant quote the page becasue i lent my book out. But it also may be he is one of the heads of the dragon, but im speculating.
 
Hello folks, I'm niamh and I live in Ireland. Good discussion!



First off, I loved the book. I didn't mind it feeling like half a book, because we had had ample warning it is, in fact, half a book :)
Here are a few thoughts, jotted down while I was reading the gazillion pages of this thread ;)


-Sandor: agreed. My eyes were opened. Grief blinded me ;)


-Gregor: Well, it seems to me they should put another head on Mountainstein, otherwise they're in deep trouble with Dorne. Even Cersei should know this.


-Jaime: Jaime loves and hates Cersei, the same way he loves and hates himself. Cersei is Jaime, and Jaime is Cersei. He hasn't a "crush" on her, she's him, deep down, and he cannot possibly leave her without leaving himself. Which he is actually doing: by turning against Cersei, he turns against everything he has become and loathes. If he is the valonqar, he will kill her, but it will kill him. There is no other way it can happen, I think.
I also have an irrational gut feeling he will get a hand back. How? no idea. Qyburn? (It IS irrational. The suggested special meaning of the golden hand works for me, too) I also think he will encounter the Outlaws, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in the North - can't wait to read more about arguably - one of the best characters.

-Tyrion: Interesting and probable he could be a Targaryen bastard. The argument can also be reversed: What if Cersei and Jaime are the bastards? What if Tywin knew it? Tyrion feels like Tywin's son (and indeed Genna hints at that), and is suitably hated for his difformity, and at the same time, his mental likeness ( or rather utter superiority) to Tywin. Cersei is insane, no doubt about that; inbreeding does that. That could put Jaime as one of the dragon heads ... interesting! (I've just been beaten to it by SuicideRin, but I let it stand anyway :P)
I do know they're blonde as Lannisters, but the mother was a Lannister as well. Jon looks a Stark through and through, and yet, the (interesting, I may say) theory is out he is a Targaryen ;)
It seems Tyrion is the obvious bastard, because he is a dwarf and ugly. It seems to have influenced some people to think "well, he can't be a Lannister, then, he's too ugly" ;) or some such :)


-Jon Snow: According to the prophecies and Maester Aemon, the chosen one doesn't have to a man. If it is a man, it has to be Jon Snow. If Eddard knew the prophecy, it stood to sense and honour that he would hide him, even though it ruined his life. He better beware of Melisandre, himself.


-I don't think GRRM kills people off, or not, to suit his story or the readers; we've been witnesses to that. In real life, people die because - well - they die. I believe we're going to get a few more kicks in the gut.


-The 3 heads of the Dragon: Dany, Jon, Tyrion/or Jaime. Any takers?


-Qyburn is a bloody mummer. I wonder if he dabbles with Rh'llor too? It's obvious he uses Cersei. Who he works for is anyone's guess. I can think of someone unsavoury enough to use him: Littlefinger. Anybody thinking Littlefinger fled KL without any backup is naive, and underestimates Petyr severely, IMO. That guy's makes my skin crawl. He's lecherous and half insane himself, I should think. I intensely disliked him from the word GO, still do, and won't forgive the fact he broadcasted everywhere how he took Lady Catelyn's maidenhead, while it's obvious he did not. He's dangerous, very dangerous.


-It's been mentioned Sansa doesn't behave like a true Stark, and is losing her identity. Very true; the fact she lost her direwolf is no coincidence, and the killing of Lady started the whole chain of events, as well. Those direwolves are terribly important, and as long as Nymeria is roaming without Arya, Arya will not be able to find herself.


-Asha will be the one, not Victarion. Victarion despises women ruling, anyway. There is NO way he will follow Dany, when he denied Asha. Asha is the one who doesn't mind bending the knee, and she's very strong and intelligent too.


-Freys: Is there a single redeeming Frey? I don't recall :D May the old Gods give them their reckoning. #1 to go was Tywin, and so on. I believe anyone who had a hand in the Red Wedding is now cursed.


-Darkstar: I reckon he's another of Petyr's creatures. (Or Varys? Not really in character though, neither with Tyrion's, who would never harm a child)


-The Word: I'm in the "Arya" clan. I'm willing to be swayed, though not by "Sword". It makes no sense to me, and I can't see what sense it would make for Lady Stoneheart. Making a Lannister sword out of Ice would be the same as carving the british flag in Stonehenge, and trying to tell one of the Old People what a good idea it was :P. When I read about Ice being melted was one of the hardest moments for me, and I still feel terrible about it. If I was a Stark I'd hang the culprits twice, just for it.


Well, it was more than a few thoughts, I hope you managed to read through all of that :)



edit: I realise I left Bran out of my reckoning entirely. Bran's definitely going to be able to talk to the Dragons, and he's always been the most important Stark (legit one). Bran will also probably save the world from the others, however he will do that.
 
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The Spoiler head of dragon

I wanted to list my ponderings here on bloodlines and the heads of the dragons so I dont ruins someones reading experience. But I cant post pages like i usaully do becasue my book is still on loan.

Jon is the son of Fire and Ice. He is Rheagar and Lyannas son. The Starks are ice. They are wargs too. The Tarageyns are kinda wargish with their dragons. The fire in him is taregyn (sp). When Dany was in the house of the undead seeing visions a dude with a harp (Rhaegar) was talking over his son, saying his is the song of fire and ice. Im not sure, however that Jon is a head of the dragon.

Dany- Duh.

Jamie- Not a Lannister, silver beard, good canidate for dragon head (see my ealier posts.

Aurane Waters? Whats his name? The new admiral, whom Ceseri just about gets hot for because he looks like Rheagar. I think he is Aegon (sp) Rheagars son with the dornish gal. I read something online where GRRM hinted that Aegon didn't die. I think he may be a dark horse head of the dragon.

I'll be more concise when I get my books back. Sorry for the spelling errors and lack of page numbers. Ill track down a link for GRRM talking about Aegon.
SuicideRun (rin is a typo)
 
Dragons behind the sofa

I must admit that I've never really bought into Jaime/Cersei or Tyrion as Targaryens. With Jon Snow a bastard and Joff, Myrcella and Tommen born of incest it would seem a bit much if more Lannisters turned out to be illegitimate. Too many crossed bloodlines floating around.

And that's when it hit me.

If Jaime and Cersei are half Targeryen then Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are also half Targaryen!

I mention earlier on another thread entitled "Illyrio" my thoughts on Varys' motivation. We've assumed up until now that either the Targaryen's offered him something no-one else can/will (possible related to him being a eunuch) or else for idealistic reasons.

However assuming he has a reason for wanting a Targaryen on the throne rather than someone specific who he knows to be a good ruler (Rheager, for instance) then why would he not settle for Joffrey? Maybe it needed to be a "pureblood" Targaryen, or someone who "knew" they were a Targeryen? But then, what good would knowing they're a Targaryen do, unless some sort of occult family knowledge passed with them?

Most of this is speculation, except that if Jaime and Cersei are half-Targaryen then so are Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. And that's a lot of Dragon's for Mr. Martin to be hiding behind the sofa!
 
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The Children

Family bonds are so incredibly important in this series. Right now one of the debates is who is Jon Snow's parents. There is the Rheagar and Lyannna camp and the Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. Ill be honest, I'm starting to think both couples had a kid. Ned Dayne said that he was Jon's milk brother and Wylla was Jon's mother. I dont really by that. Ned Dayne and Meera Reed both indincate that Ned and Ashara fell for eachother at Harrenhal. (Meera does it in her tale of the knight of the Laughing tree when Lyanna cajoles Ned into dancing with the girl with smiling lavendar eyes). I thouhgt that she may have been a fringe taragyn, but the citadel's website desribed the daynes as having lavendar eyes. I think that Jon is too stark-y to be a taragyn, esp with his wolf and all. I believe that Lyanna and Rheagar's get is out there, but we may not know who he is. Admrial waters is a taragyn, im sure. But if hes Aegon (Rheagar's true born son) or Lyannas I dont know. I think Ned Stark would put his nephew somewhere a little bit higher up. Only the next 3 books and a decade or so will tell for good.

A Lament. Ive read seveal GRRM interviews online at differnet places, and that gives me some of my guesses, as in my die hard belied that Aegon, Rheagars son is alive. GRRM was very oblique in answering that question. And we can count on Tyrion meeting Dany.

And i dont know who the daddy is, but tywin isnt Jamie or ceseri's

SuicideRun
 
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