ADWD- October release?

[TheJC]

Not to mention Mr. Martin doesn't "owe" us anything. Sure I am fascinated by the world he has created and the his skill at storytelling. But if he decided tomorrow I don't feel this anymore, I want to write about puppies that like to ride on the backs of scaled down motorcycles after the apocalypse", then that is his perogative as an author. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be greatly saddened. But that is his choice. Unless he has contractually obligated himself to a publishing house to produce a certain type of work in a certain timeframe which he obviously has not, even then he owes the publishers, no-one else.

I would probably pick up the puppy book too, just to give it a shot!

I always thought their was an implied contract between the read and author that an actual ending to a series would be provided at some point. Otherwise readers would not purchase books until the series was finished, and epic series would be extremely difficult to make without authors/publishers turning a profit until the series was finished.

Not that i have a problem waiting for quality, but I do believe something is "owed" at some point.

 

[Seegee]

But if he decided tomorrow I don't feel this anymore, I want to write about puppies that like to ride on the backs of scaled down motorcycles after the apocalypse",
I would probably pick up the puppy book too, just to give it a shot!

I know this is OT, but I really want to read that puppy book!

 

[Glelas]

Martin doesn't owe his readers anything. He could be home right now watching re-runs of Happy Days and it is really none of my business.

If we paid Mr. Martin in advance for ADWD then yes, he owes us something. But since we haven't shelled out a nickel for the new book he is under no contract social or otherwise to finish the book. Of course he may owe the publishing house a product if they gave him an advance but he owes us nothing.

Maybe Martin is spending a little too much time getting this book on the shelf. Only the market can decide. Sure, he wants to create a superior product and ensure his readers hours of enjoyment but if nobody buys the book then the market has spoken and I guarantee he won't take this long for book 6.

But as long as we reach in our pockets when it is released, there is no reason for me to think he won't take just as long with book 6.

If I was him, I would milk this for as long as possible and laugh all the way to the bank...

Cynical, I know.

 

[TheJC]

I see now that I was wrong. I was viewing the idea of "owing" as it related to my own views on right and wrong. When in reality the only way anyone owes anything is when a controlling force makes you do something.

 

[Aether Monkey]

He's just waiting for the HBO series to get into swing; crossover synergy marketing.

 

[Dirvani]

I see now that I was wrong. I was viewing the idea of "owing" as it related to my own views on right and wrong. When in reality the only way anyone owes anything is when a controlling force makes you do something.

Yeah, in a business sense, he owes us absolutely nothing. The only contracts we have with him are through the receipts for the first four books. Now, in the sense of being a considerate human being, it would be pretty lame if he just kept us waiting forever. However, that goes both ways. While there's obviously some procrastination going on, if he wants to be a perfectionist about his story and take his time, there's really no reason why people can't be considerate of that. It may even benefit everyone by providing a more enjoyable story... or the story may nose dive. Either way, it's not the end of the world. The first few books were still excellent.

At least, that's how I view it...

 

[krm0915]

It's amazing how people are still posting in this thread every day.

 

[ChrisW]

repeating the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

[Ratatoskr]

It's amazing how people are still posting in this thread every day.

Yeah. It's the thread that never stops giving. I love it. Best thread on the internet!

On the the topic at hand, I've got a question to the people who feel the author has some kind of moral obligation to finish a series. If I get your argument straight, you're saying that by starting a series, the author made an implicit promise to finish it in a reasonable time frame, and as it's under that premise that you've bought the first book(s) in the series, the author now owes you (morally, not legally) to provide closure for you. In other words, there's some sort of silent agreement between the author and you.

I get it so far. I'm not sure how far I agree with you, but I get it. But answer me this: What about your part of the deal? Do you feel you are under a corresponding obligation to keep buying further books in the series? What if the author took the story in a direction you didn't want it to go? What if he killed off characters you liked, introduced subplots you found boring, jumped the shark in some way? Would you feel obliged to keep buying the books? Couldn't the author say: 'By buying the first books in my series, you created the impression that you would keep buying them. I kept my part of the silent agreement, I provided you with books, now you're under a moral obligation to buy them.'

In short, have you ever stopped buying books in a series, for whatever reason? If yes, have you felt the slightest bit hypocritical?

 

[Lordwalker]

Yeah. It's the thread that never stops giving. I love it. Best thread on the internet!

On the the topic at hand, I've got a question to the people who feel the author has some kind of moral obligation to finish a series. If I get your argument straight, you're saying that by starting a series, the author made an implicit promise to finish it in a reasonable time frame, and as it's under that premise that you've bought the first book(s) in the series, the author now owes you (morally, not legally) to provide closure for you. In other words, there's some sort of silent agreement between the author and you.

I get it so far. I'm not sure how far I agree with you, but I get it. But answer me this: What about your part of the deal? Do you feel you are under a corresponding obligation to keep buying further books in the series? What if the author took the story in a direction you didn't want it to go? What if he killed off characters you liked, introduced subplots you found boring, jumped the shark in some way? Would you feel obliged to keep buying the books? Couldn't the author say: 'By buying the first books in my series, you created the impression that you would keep buying them. I kept my part of the silent agreement, I provided you with books, now you're under a moral obligation to buy them.'

In short, have you ever stopped buying books in a series, for whatever reason? If yes, have you felt the slightest bit hypocritical?

Very well said. I believe you illustrated my original point in a way I was unable to.

The books are the author's idea's put on paper. I feel strange as a fan, chaining Martin to his desk and telling him he will not have a life, he will not go enjoy the fruits of his labor, he will not go to cons and meet and mingle amongst his fans. He will sit there and THINK and write his IDEAS He is under a moral obligation to do so, because he hasn't fully fleshed out his own IDEAS on paper.

I'm usually a very cynical person, but I seriously doubt Mr. Martin is gain additional $$ by extending the series or taking longer periods of finnish each book.

 

[AndyLavigne]

I was just thinking about A Feast for Crows: god, it's been 5 years. Since then, the following has happened:

-OJ Simpson goes to jail
-Axel Rose releases Chinese Democracy
-China actually turns semi democratic
-black man elected President of the United States
-first human face transplant
-man cured of HIV
-Human Genome mapped
-Saddam Hussein killed
-Duke Nukem Forever canceled, developers sued, rights bought by another company, and now on target for a Spring 2011 release date complete with a demo

I feel so old.

 

[Ratatoskr]

I was just thinking about A Feast for Crows: god, it's been 5 years. Since then, the following has happened:

-Duke Nukem Forever canceled, developers sued, rights bought by another company, and now on target for a Spring 2011 release date complete with a demo

What? WHAT??? I totally missed this *hyperventilates*

 

[Dirvani]

Yeah. It's the thread that never stops giving. I love it. Best thread on the internet!

On the the topic at hand, I've got a question to the people who feel the author has some kind of moral obligation to finish a series. If I get your argument straight, you're saying that by starting a series, the author made an implicit promise to finish it in a reasonable time frame, and as it's under that premise that you've bought the first book(s) in the series, the author now owes you (morally, not legally) to provide closure for you. In other words, there's some sort of silent agreement between the author and you.

I get it so far. I'm not sure how far I agree with you, but I get it. But answer me this: What about your part of the deal? Do you feel you are under a corresponding obligation to keep buying further books in the series? What if the author took the story in a direction you didn't want it to go? What if he killed off characters you liked, introduced subplots you found boring, jumped the shark in some way? Would you feel obliged to keep buying the books? Couldn't the author say: 'By buying the first books in my series, you created the impression that you would keep buying them. I kept my part of the silent agreement, I provided you with books, now you're under a moral obligation to buy them.'

In short, have you ever stopped buying books in a series, for whatever reason? If yes, have you felt the slightest bit hypocritical?

Not sure if you meant to quote krm or me or TheJC. I'm not in the 'there is some kind of contract between author and reader' camp. I don't feel there's any sort of legal or moral obligation, I just meant it would be somewhat lame if he just abandoned the series. However, it is fully in his right to do so. On the flip-side, it's lame of people to get all bent out of shape because he's taking his time with the series and writing it his way.

You made a much better argument for the situation though.

EDIT:

Ah, reread your post. I see why you quoted krm now. Either way, I wanted to clarify my position.

 

[Andols]

so is it out yet?

 

[TheJC]

Yeah. It's the thread that never stops giving. I love it. Best thread on the internet!

On the the topic at hand, I've got a question to the people who feel the author has some kind of moral obligation to finish a series. If I get your argument straight, you're saying that by starting a series, the author made an implicit promise to finish it in a reasonable time frame, and as it's under that premise that you've bought the first book(s) in the series, the author now owes you (morally, not legally) to provide closure for you. In other words, there's some sort of silent agreement between the author and you.

I get it so far. I'm not sure how far I agree with you, but I get it. But answer me this: What about your part of the deal? Do you feel you are under a corresponding obligation to keep buying further books in the series? What if the author took the story in a direction you didn't want it to go? What if he killed off characters you liked, introduced subplots you found boring, jumped the shark in some way? Would you feel obliged to keep buying the books? Couldn't the author say: 'By buying the first books in my series, you created the impression that you would keep buying them. I kept my part of the silent agreement, I provided you with books, now you're under a moral obligation to buy them.'

In short, have you ever stopped buying books in a series, for whatever reason? If yes, have you felt the slightest bit hypocritical?

Exellent point, I had not considered this. While I personally have not failed to purchase on going books in unfinished series I previously started, I can only assume at somepoint, either by me purchasing a first book I do not like or a decline in personal enjoyment, this will happen.

I was trying to express the bond of trust between author and reader inwhich the reader purchases ongoing work under the assumption that it will at somepoint (whether by the original author on another) be completed. The purchases by the reader allow the author to continue his work over a long period of time. Thus the author can support himself with his writing while working on an extremely long story(series).

Perhaps I was thinking about it incorrectly from the perspective of the reader. If martin was to never allow another book to be made in the series, or released a truely effortless turd, he might diminish the "bond of trust" that allowed him to financially successful writing the first 4 books in the series. Readers do not have to buy books until the series is finished, but I would assume most authors need readers to buy books prior to series completion. So if there was any sort of moral obligation to uphold the bond of trust between author and reader it would be for the sake of other authors.

but I am not an author so I can only speculate.

 

[Mithfânion]

Ratatosker

Couldn't the author say: 'By buying the first books in my series, you created the impression that you would keep buying them. I kept my part of the silent agreement, I provided you with books, now you're under a moral obligation to buy them.'

No. Which is why authors aren't doing that.

There is a wholly different sort of dependence going on here. I subscribe fully to the idea that GRRM has a moral obligation to finish the series, but not clearly not a legal one. I see you agree with this. By not publishing stand alone books, but rather segments, GRRM is basically providing us with parts of a puzzle, rather than a complete puzzle that you would pay for and be done with it.

So, the only way that you are going to be paying $25,00 for that first set of puzzle pieces is if you believe that the puzzle will eventually be released complete. This makes sense to anyone reading I expect.

Now, to go to your counterargument, as the reader/ puzzle buyer, I depend for 100% on the author providing more books, hence the obvious moral obligation. However the author does not rely to any such extent on me as a reader to complete the series/puzzle. As his popularity increases, as it has with GRRM, my importance to his success has become less than 0,001%. I am irrelevant to the continuation of the series, and GRRM can easily lose me as a reader. Only if everyone reading the series would stop buying future volumes would that be a similar impact for the author. So the moral obligation, if there at all, is on a completely different level.

The comparison would only make sense if GRRM were my personal artist, like Johan Vermeer being commissioned by my good self to do a splendid portrait of me, and I decide to withdraw my financial backing as his patron. Then I too would have a strong moral obligation.

So no, if you're a reader and you don't like the series and choose not to spend more money on it, you are not even morally bound to continue purchasing just to make the author financially independent, since you are just a very tiny and insignificant cog in the great whole. Also, that is simply the risk that the author must take anyway. His series will be a success, or not, depending on many variables. If not enough people buy his books, he will have to find another means of income, because people have a right to log off a series if the author is no longer providing them with what they want to read. But in any case, these people would probably have been far less eager to give him any sort of support if they thought they only ever get half of the puzzle anyway. The very act alone of publishing 1-8th of a story requires a great leap of faith on the part of the buyer. The buyer takes the risk here, not the creator. In return, the creator has a moral obligation to provide the remaining pieces of the puzzle. If you're looking for anything that is the buyer's counteroffer to the author's moral obligation, that leap of faith is it.

 

[molybdenum]

I agree about 95% on what you just said, Mith, with the exception of two things.

The first is that this is not strictly a puzzle piece. This is a book, and on it's own can (and does) provide entertainment to the reader. So, if for some reason, this series is never finished, I expect people will still buy the completed books for what they are: entertaining masterpieces of fantasy. Saying one would only buy the books if there is a defined ending would be saying the ending is more important than the journey to get there, which I do not believe is the case, not with books. So, as a reader, you are not paying 25$ for a puzzle piece, you are paying for a book. It is not completely worthless if the other parts aren't there, such as a puzzle piece would be.

Also, GRRM may have a moral obligation to finish the series, but he is also morally obligated to put his best effort of work out there. And I think it overrides the finishing the series obligation. Why? Because it is not a puzzle that must be completed above else, but a book. And as a reader I would feel much more betrayed if something sub-standard was put out there than if the series was not completed, and Martin is of the same mind, it appears.

 

[ChrisW]

I agree with 99% with what Mith said. The one percent I don't agree with is that it was posted by mith.

 

[Thor]

I also love this thread. I come back here every year or so to see if the vigil is being kept. Maybe I should come back in September, rather than November. It's lost in time to me what year the October of the title is actually referring to, but every September, I can pretend its going to be next month.

Looking over some of the posts, I've noticed that while the apologetics is still there (defiant to the last!), the flavour of the apologetics has changed. Now it has become imperative to prove that George Martin owes us nothing. Yes, just because someone begins a series, doesn't mean they need to finish it. How foolish the reader for generating such an expectation. Most likely Martin intended it from the beginning to be an unfinished masterpiece. How naive to think otherwise.

But this (mildly exaggerated) depiction of the current state of ASOIAF apologetics has a key feature that distinguishes it from the apologetics of yore: now the mind of the apologist has been dragged kicking, screaming and grudgingly to the acknowledgment that there is a high probability that the series will go unfinished. In such a psychological state of affairs, we need to justify to ourselves the investment of time and energy we put into the series.

Yes, each book can be thoroughly enjoyed as a stand alone - the need for a completed series? An affectation of the impatient and undiscerning.

Indeed.

 

[sweetmartin]

George owes us nothing.whether books nor story.i am following this thread here about many years.and have been participated on discussions and read updates elsewere too(like on Festeros or The Fartzone).and i came to the conclusion that all is unnecessary and futile.

George has created his own world like other gods he owes nothing to the crearutes in or out of the world.he can decide to write all the rest books at once and keep them for himself without publishing.or he can publish only one example of ADWD.
now because he dont need money anymore,he can buy all released examples of the upcomming books and burn them on a convention called"burning books of ice and fire".

where are the dragons and krakens and where is King Kong?

ps:i am sure there will be another sequel to king kong