Are we in the Golden Age of Fantasy?

clockwirk

the enchanter
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
243
Fantasy/Sci Fi really...
I just got done watching an episode of Battlestar Galactica and I was struck at how well done that show is. It's arguably one of the best shows on television. That sentiment seems to apply to a lot of Fantasy/Sci Fi these days. Quality seems to have hit an apex at the same time as creativity is flourishing. I think of Martin, Erikson, Bakker, Mielville, Gaiman, plus newbies like Lynch and Abercrombie, and TV shows like Battlestar, Lost, Heroes, etc... It seems like there is always something great out there to get into.
Anybody else share my positive state of mind about the genre? Do you agree that we're in the 'Golden Age'? If so, why do you think that is?
 
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Hey, CW

I totally think we are in Fantasy's Golden age. And I don't think there will be an end anytime soon. There are a zillion reasons why, IMHO.

On the surface, I think that generationally, we are now dealing with a lot of young folks who whet their teeth on Harry Potter, who have now had children and are passing along the love of fantasy to them. The Lord of the Rings movies too had a generational impact. The entire entertainment industry saw that Fantasy can be critically acclaimed (what was it 14 Oscars for Return of the King?) and score MONSTROUSLY at the box office.

And look at what we have to look forward to, movies of: Narnia, Eragon, His Dark Materials, Inkheart, The Hobbit (by Peter Jackson's hand, I pray), etc. Each one of these that hits at the theater, spawns interest in the books, and then the readers of those want to know what else is like them.

Aside from being an author, my day job is middle school reading teacher. And I can tell you from observation that Fantasy is by FAR the hottest genre among tweens. Look at the NY Times and Amazon YA bestsellers. A staggering 8 our of 10 titles are fantasy titles.:eek:

If this generation loves fantasy this much, what fun the next generation will be.

Under the surface though, I think readers are flocking to fantasy:

1. To escape the problems of life
2. To vicariously live heroic lives
3. To discover worlds where virtues still have meaning

Not to be a cynic, but when the world seems to be going to h-e-double toothpicks in a hand basket, people can find an anchor point in fantasy. Ironic, isn't it?
 
if this is the golde age, does it mean that it cannot possibly get better? i'm a pathologic optimist, and i say the golden age is still to come. i have some small issues even with the modern masters you mentioned :rolleyes:

I digg the comment about worlds where virtues still have meaning.
 
if this is the golde age, does it mean that it cannot possibly get better? i'm a pathologic optimist, and i say the golden age is still to come. i have some small issues even with the modern masters you mentioned :rolleyes:

I digg the comment about worlds where virtues still have meaning.

Absolutely it can get better. I guess what I mean is that the environment is right for individual authors to be excellent and creative. How else could we have a full on series based on The Dresden Files and an HBO series in the works for ASOIAF. The SFF community at large wants to be challenged by the authors, and it's willing to pay to make it great. I don't think that it means that all of the authors writing now are flawless, but they all have a staggering amount of potential, a community who will require them to be fresh and creative, and some financial backing to keep doing it.
And...they haven't really yet been commercialized to the point of becoming stagnant.
 
I do think that the golden age is a time where moviemakers and such have found out that you can make more money. Isn't that how it always works? :)
But as a f/sf-fan then I say "lets dig some gold":D .

And I wonder, in Sweden it's not popular reading any type of book (in my age) and schools are trying to find new ways to get teenagers to do just that. Is that a problem everywhere or just here?
 
Growing up in a small town in Belgium I discovered fantasy in the local library. The choice was very simple : they had David Eddings, Steven Donaldson and Hickman & Weis as mainstream fantasy. If you wanted something more alternative you could choose between Tanith Lee, Jack Vance or Roger Zelazny. I think that's the great bonus of reading fantasy today : there is so much variety. It's perfectly possible today to read 30 fantasy novels a year without encountering a single elf or dark lord.

Are we living in a golden age ? Clearly never before has there been more fantasy published than today. But let's be careful. A lot of the material published today is mediocre or poorly written. I'am a little bit afraid that sooner or later the "fantasy hype" will go downhill and many publishers will be forced to downsize their output.
 
This is a really interesting question. There's no doubt that this is a period of massive growth for the genre. I remember, not so many years ago, that in my local newsagents the only fantasy they had filled one shelf and only the big names appeared - Williams, Brooks et al. Now, whenever you go into a bookstore the shelves (note the plural) are practically collapsing under the weight of dozens of books by dozens of authors.

The downside of this boom in fantasy is that a lot of the stuff being published is depressingly sub-standard. You have to take the good with the bad. I'm not sure whether this is a golden age for fantasy, but there's no denying it's a big period of growth that doesn't show any sign of dying out just yet, and for all of us fans that has to be more of a good thing than bad.
 
Fantasy is still getting started. When books by terrible authors stop making best seller lists, and the standard of books in the fantasy genre increases, then we will be in the golden age. Too many books are published now simply because they are about dragons and wizards.

As for sci-fi, my general opinion is that science fiction "ain't what it used to be". I enjoy reading classics far more than the stuff being published now a days.

Once fantasy takes the next step, and evolves into a more literary form, then perhaps we will be in a golden age. Though I must commend magic realism authors such as Salman Rushdie and Gabrielle Garcia Marquez who have taken non-realist literature to the next level.

There still are too many books of low quality being published, and until that stops the golden age will need to wait.

Plus fantasy is generally new-ish in terms of popular fiction. The genre only recently began evolving. Until we have seen where the genre is going, there is no way to label anything "golden age".
 
Definitely in a Golden Age as far as I am concerned. Have been for some time. Certainly a bit before Lord of the Rings ever made it to the big screen or Harry Potter took off. Both, in fact, seem to have enjoyed a lovely give-and-take with the benefits of such a Golden age. Helping to broaden and strengthen in some regards; most likely both acheiving success far beyond what they might have outside of such a phenomenon.

And sadly, both go a huge way at undermining much of the aspects of the very golden age of fantasy, some of at least are enjoying and continue to enjoy. Neither LOTR or Harry Potter really bring such a vast new audience looking for new fantasy that outweighs or compltely counteracts the damage both do to the perception. Without HP and LOTR, would Eragon have been published? Let alone made into a movie? Would Robert Newcombe enjoy bestseller status? Would the glaringly obvious ripoffs of both HP and LOTR proliferate and stand as false identifiers of the genre? It took years for the false stigma of Brooks and the franchising bland horror that was Weis and Hickman to wear off. Somewhat. All in all, I'm not sure that HP and LOTR do less harm than good. Certainly overall, looking back over the last ten years or more, the genre has enjoyed such a huge success in expanding and deepening and coming into it's own that both mainstream sucesses owe more to the already established Golden Age as I see it, than the other way around.

I'm not sure exactly when the Golden Age began. I certainly know it existed back in the mid '90's. All you had to do was walk into a Borders or a B&N superstore and head to the genre section and see several cases, not just shelves, devoted to just the new releases. To see hardcover offerings in the dozens in new books every couple of months.

And of course, even Brooks and Weis-Hickman, for all the damage I think they did with their work being rather low standard and incredibly deriative even of itself, helped trigger the growing awareness of the genre. If only, ironically, preparing a large loyal readership to want more. Want better. Want variety and want it in quality publications.

Thankfully, I see such a Golden Age not only having existed for some time now, but also neither being static nor finite. It can evolve and fluctuate, but I don't think it has to end. Or reach a certain point and stop.

The internet not only has created a new means of communication and appreciation between fans and authors and publishers. It has also created a growing awareness of the genre and what it has to offer that I don't see simply going away or dropping off suddenly. If there is a weary backlash, it will be in those niche trend markets that attract the flavor-of-the-month seekers anyway. Those desperately looking for the next HP or LOTR. And those who follow and bite at whatever the rest of the school of fish are feeing on. When HP ends the groupthink desperate to belong and be a part of the popular phenomenon will move on to something else. The same readership that created an atmosphere that saw the nurturing of such will continue. Albeit expanded by those who came to fansty through HP and LOTR and saw them both for what they truly were and decided to explore deeper and farther.
 
I don't believe its possible to view our current time period as the 'golden age' of anything. It seems only correct to look back on a time and say, "Boy was that the golden age of fantasy or what? Remember when Martin had us waiting (correction: loooooooooong wait) on the edge of our seats for A Feast for Crows? -Hobb was setting up the ending for her Soldiers Son trilogy? -Rowling was finally wrapping up her Potter books?" On the other hand we could be saying thirty years from now, "Pshh, A Song of Ice and Fire, thats childs play compared to whats coming out now."

We must remember that we are reading fantasy in its infancy. The Lord of the Rings was completed only sixty years ago. Sure we can say fantasy fiction predates Tolkien, be it didn't become popular fiction until the 80's. Only now is fantasy fiction being accepted as popular. Sure, A Song of Ice and Fire is brilliant, and Hobb IMO is virtually flawless, but I think we have yet to read the best fantasy.
 
Seeing as you can't predict the future, fantasy is definitely in its Golden Age.

It's not as if Tolkien invented fantasy- Dunsany, Hodgson, Eddison etc all came before Tolkien.
 
I think we're seeing much more gold in the pan now.

Does this mean it's a golden age? I hope not. I want to be finding more and more gold in what I read for years to come.

I hope it just keeps getting better and better. When I see the works coming out now, the new series, I get goosebumps at how good it is compared to what I read in the eighties. The beginning of a golden age then? Sure. But I believe it will keep getting better. As an avid reader of SF, I sincerely hope so.

But the more gold there is, the more dross too. Unfortunate. I don't think we'll loose the dross, but shine on fantasy nuggets, shine on!
 
Agree with the posts above that fantasy is still going strong.

Sci-fi shows still have a while to go I think. I enjoyed many of the episodes of Battlestar Galactica in the first and second season but the recent one has gone downhill for me and I've lost interest. I couldn't get into Lost, the story dragged on and on. Heroes looks promising though. Maybe I'm just too picky. :P
 
I think Goldenage may be the wrong type of terminology. That implies that their will be a downturn, a decline. And I don't really see that happening Popularity wise, fantasy has never been stronger, whether the quality reaimns strong enough in the future, remains to be seen. Though absolutely, I see Fantasy as getting progessively stronger and stronger.

The future is most certainly bright.
 
I know that Sci-Fi has a history of very creative and intelligent authors like Asminov, Bradbury, and Herbert. But if you look at TV, the old SF shows were just not good. Original Star Trek, Lost in Space, Original Battlestar Galactica... I don't know if anybody was really trying to make a quality TV show back then, so maybe it's a TV phenomenon, but modern SF shows have just recently put a priority on being good.
If you look at fantasy tv and movies over the past 20-30 years, it's even worse. Any kind of fantasy movie in the 80's was a joke. Even if you don't like the LOTR adaptations, you have to admit that fantasy movies can finally play ball with REAL movies, and LOTR had a lot to do with that.
On the fantasy book side...It's hard for me to tell. You've always had a thread of good authors through each decade - Donaldson 70s, Williams & Wolfe 80s etc. - but the mainstream guys like Brooks, Goodkind, Eddings, and to a lesser extent Jordan, seem to be on a declination while Martin, Erikson, Bakker, et. al. are in ascendancy. And most people would probably agree that the latter group is much more exciting than the former.
I see it as a Golden Age because it seems like Fantasy has grown up overall. It's past the adolescent decades of the 80s and 90s and is now really coming into it's own.
Does anybody feel like we are past the Golden Age of fantasy?
 
I'm not sure why a golden age has to be finite. At least in terms of a recognizable ending while experiencing it. I think a goldn age of fantasy can last generations, if not eras. Everything eventually ends, but the notion that because the hypothetical golden Age has begun means somehow a clock is ticking and this is all we get seems really such a zoloft "My glass is half empty with a crack because my dog knocked it over while it died" approach. And I'm not a bubbling little Pollyanna by any regard.

I see it as a Golden Age because it seems like Fantasy has grown up overall. It's past the adolescent decades of the 80s and 90s and is now really coming into it's own.

I think this is way too much of a subjective approach. And a bit too pat-yourself-on-the-back as it seems to imply that what you currently like and currently read is more mature and better than what was produced prior. That your own tastes as they have evolved are somehow indicative of market quality.

Just because the market has expanded and allowed for more variety and, at least in my view, more quality. It does not mean quality did not exist. Or that somehow the works of prior years are somehow less because a shiny new book is out by such-and-such. No matter how much I love Bakker, it hardly makes Donaldson's work less stunning or brilliant to me. Same for Erikson compared to Jordan. Or the vast trove of works by Cherryh, Asimov, McKillip, Tanith Lee and scads of other authors who did and in many cases still are writing wonderful stuff.

I think it borders on the smug on any of our part to think that somehow what we are reading is more mature and more meaningful than what was written ten and twenty years ago as a whole. There might be more of it. And there might be a greater recognition of efforts and a greater demand. But it hardly makes the current crop so much better and wonderful on an individual case-by-case basis. I hardly think that Martin or Erikson or some of the new guys on the block like Lynch or Ruckley or Abraham suddenly consign Stephen R. Donaldson, Tad Williams, Robert Jordan or even Melanie Rawn to adolesence in any way shape or form.

Prefering what seems new is not a flaw. It is even a good thing for the genre as a whole as initial sales tend to bottom line the approach to another work by that author. Reading a new author's first work and being stunned by its brilliance is a hard act to follow. But to try and subjectively lump a current period as better than just ten years ago or twenty years ago, I think misses the point. One, it looks at a small timeframe in the scheme of things. NOt to mention applies one individual's tastes as a benchmark for a huge array of individuals. Two, it skews to that taste. For every great book there are maybe two or three good books and maybe a half dozen decent entertaining books and a good dozen not horrible but needs work books and two dozen or more books that were a blind throw at the wall and hope the stink sticks.

Regardless of what I think of Brooks and Eddings and Weis and Hickman, we have many authors I think are much worse and do the genre even greater damage when trotted out as representative of the genre. I see gimmick after gimmick in terms of marketing that actually works. And gimmick after gimmick by authors that really aren't writing what I consider fantasy but merely adding the slightest touch to their criminal procedure novel, their murder mystery novel and even their espionage thriller novel. Some of them are quite good. I guess my point being that for every Bakker in this current "period", there is a Mitchell Graham. A Robert Newcombe. A Christopher Paolini. Who write incredibly derivative dreck and have healthy, if not huge followings. I don't see any great maturity in that regard.

And what about someone like Brooks or Jordan who still sit firmly at the top of the sales bunch? Both certainly are reaching new audiences as readers either reach the reading age and awareness or just finally broach an author that is rather ubiquitous to the genre. No matter what the popularity poll is here or elsewhere, the fact that Jordan's entire backlist is still outselling most other "current" authors mentioned, if viewed outside the subjective realm, certainly does not indicate that the genre has "matured" so much as simply continued to broaden in scope.

We must remember that we are reading fantasy in its infancy.

Could not disagree more. Fantasy is something that has been around for ages and ages. Long before even the first "The Wooley Mammouth that Got Away" story. Various mythologies, legends and oral histories all embodied the continal fascination with the fantastic. Jules Verne. Edgar Rice Burroughs. Even Jack London. Flash Gordon and Prince Valiant comic strips. Superman. Batman. The Grimm Brothers. The Chanse de Roland. The Decameron. Shakespeare. Heck even Louis L'Amour touched on some type of fantastic that sparked the human imagination. L'Amour wrote "westerns". But did so in a way that made readers flock to falling into a world that really never did exist but in the legendary imagination of one person. Sure some things were "real" but many were part of the mythic culture of the Ole West.

So just as we are not looking a genre that has suddenly started shaving and needs to have a good heart-to-heart on why body cologne is not a deodorant; we aren't bouncing it on our knee and wondering what that dreadful smell is and where the hel its parents got off to either.
 
I think we are at the point where its not quite the golden age but its that bit just before. I feel that it will be the golden age when i walk into a book shop and theres a separate area for fantasy and a one for sci fi and that they will be very large sections full of quality books. or something like that. I dunno, i guess i havent read enough fantasy (because of my age) to judge.
 
Hey JohnH, who is this Mitchell Graham, and also "Abraham", you refer to in your posts?
 
Re what JohnH is saying, what you're really asking is whether category fantasy is in a Golden Age. (As opposed to the thousands of years of fantasy fiction that has come before and technically, in terms of historical dating, would be the Golden Age.)

Whether it is or not would depend on what sort of scale you are using for the term "Golden." If it's sales -- monetary gold, then yes, category fantasy has entered a Golden age, sort of. While some fantasy authors are selling more than ever before, placing higher and more consistently and in greater numbers on major mainstream bestseller lists, making inroads into new country territories, however, the vast bulk of fantasy writers are running into a number of problems. They have lower overall sales than their mid-list predecessors. Established authors have seen significant parts of their backlists go out of print. And paperback sales have seen the number of vendors reduced over the last twenty years, causing further sales pressure. So it's not really a Golden age for all on that scale.

We could instead use the system sf has used, which is again by date. In that case, the Golden Age of category fantasy would be its older works -- the period from the late sixties through the 1980's. This next period -- 1990's and the oughts -- would be the Silver Age, when fantasy authors built on what their predecessors originally founded.

We could go on quantity -- in which case, we're definitely Golden. Or quality, as in gold is high quality. This requires a subjective assessment from each person, with those who are under the age of 30 being given a handicap, and those who haven't read any fantasy written older than 1995 being given an additional handicap. We would have to officially discount all non-category fantasy -- titles that are not marketed to the category market, which in this day and age, could get a little tricky. (Plus, we'd have to decide whether to include Tolkein or not, as technically, he's non-category but did help start the category market.) Then we just have to tally up everyone's scores, and if the vote is high enough, the new generation gets the Golden nod.

Or we could just bag the whole thing.
 

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