Conan

[Pugio]

Then again, Conan did have friendships with some non-caucasian characters, and he was an equal-opportunity lover. Those things, especially the amorous relationships, were quite progressive in the 1920's and 30's.

I don't want to come across as an apologist, because we're all flawed, but when I read books from different eras of the past, I try to put myself in the writer's shoes. It's a sad fact that most white Americans didn't think that non-whites were their social equals in Howard's time, and that was considered the moral, proper attitude. (Hell, a lot of whites still have problems in that department in our own time.) But does that mean no one from that era had anything important to say?

You definitely have to take the writer's context in consideration, I agree. There were certainly less progressive spec fic authors at the time. And I can understand how it would be hard for REH not to have developed some prejudices given the time and place in which he lived. But I don't know if I'd say Conan was a completely equal opportunity lover; at the beginning of Red Nails he goes on for some time about how black women disgust him. It's that particular passage I have in mind when I say REH's views can be off-putting, though the weird race things really come out more in the Bran Mak Morn stories than in Conan.

But like you said, that doesn't mean Howard didn't have important (or at least entertaining) things to say. To me reading Howard is a bit like reading Conrad; you've got to understand that a writer can create an interesting piece of fiction while still having personal flaws, which, let's face it, REH had in spades. So in the end while some of his views on race might not invalidate his fiction, neither should they be ignored (though I know that's not what you're arguing).

 

[Kazz Wylde]

They're original short stories that are collected in one of the recent collections, and Gollancz released two (I think) to celebrate the collection but also the latest movie. One of them is something like Queen of the Blades, which is the one I started a few moments ago.

Is it Queen of the Black Coast?

 

[Loerwyn]

Is it Queen of the Black Coast?

Oh. It may very well be. Red Nails & Queen of the Black Coast

 

[Jon Sprunk]

But I don't know if I'd say Conan was a completely equal opportunity lover; at the beginning of Red Nails he goes on for some time about how black women disgust him.

I haven't read Red Nails for quite some time, so I didn't remember that line. It's odd, since in at least one other story Conan plays lover to a queen of some pseudo-African nation. Maybe Howard's view were evolving over time? I hope that's the case.

But I think we agree about most of it. We're all a product of our time. A century from now, our descendents will look back and say how backward and racist/sexist/intolerant we were.

 

[Pugio]

I haven't read Red Nails for quite some time, so I didn't remember that line. It's odd, since in at least one other story Conan plays lover to a queen of some pseudo-African nation. Maybe Howard's view were evolving over time? I hope that's the case.

But I think we agree about most of it. We're all a product of our time. A century from now, our descendents will look back and say how backward and racist/sexist/intolerant we were.

It could well be that his views evolved over time, and his views on race were far from simplistic. I mentioned the Bran Mak Morn stories earlier and that's a good example. REH portrays the vast majority of the picts as backward savages, and yet REH said that the Picts were some of his favorite people to write about. That's interesting especially because the Picts are portrayed as much more intelligent in the Kull stories (which came along later), so maybe you're right that his views had evolved. And I agree that it's problematic to try and judge people of the past by modern standards. I mean even Lincoln had some views that would likely be considered racist today, so like I said, it's important to consider context.

 

[ayvo]

Conan stories definitely have many racist a sexist themes and although I don't like racism nor sexism, it wasn't off-puting for me, because I took it as a part of the world Howard created for his stories.
For me it is the same as with books about medieval world - in those books there is a lot of racism and sexism as well, because many people in that era had such views. So I think these themes emphasize the bleakness of his world based on our own past.

 

[Pugio]

So I think these themes emphasize the bleakness of his world based on our own past.

I definitely agree that an author can have a world in which characters are racist, sexist, etc., without those viewpoints being the author's own. Sort of like how a lot of characters in ASoIaF are sexist, but so far as I can tell Martin himself is not.

It turns out there's a whole Wiki article devoted just to looking at Howard's views, and it indicates that, as speculated earlier, Howard's attitudes toward race softened over time, in part because he became disconcerted by other racist authors like Lovecraft.

 

[raggedyman]

Im reading "Midnight Sun" by Karl Edward Wagner. It has the complete short stories of Kane. This is one of the best collections by a single author I have ever read! Every one so far gets 5 stars out of 5. Dark , brooding and grim are the best way to describe them. This book is very expensive now so you might want try finding the paperbacks "Night Winds" and "Death Angels Shadow" but even these are becoming hard to find. I can't believe they haven't been republished. If you see one grab it immediately!

 

[ayvo]

I definitely agree that an author can have a world in which characters are racist, sexist, etc., without those viewpoints being the author's own. Sort of like how a lot of characters in ASoIaF are sexist, but so far as I can tell Martin himself is not.

Yeah, when thinking about this, Martin's Westeros also came to my mind as perfect example of such world. It adds a lot of pseudorealism [I don't know how else to call realism in some fictional world ] to the story.

 

[Zsinj]

I think the folk here probably expected me to respond to this a lot earlier.
In my opinion, Conan is a must for all heroic and swords & sorcery fantasy fans. Howard's work was leaps and bounds ahead of its time, and a worthy forerunner to Tolkien's concrete establishment of the fantasy genre. The prehistoric civilizations and empires and how they were established is nothing short of genius. It's sword and sorcery fantasy at its best and I love the grim, foreboding atmosphere of it too. In fact, as much as I love Tolkien, I love the world and style that Howard invented more than the one Tolkien invented, in fact, with the newer authors I believe it's more of the style they're going with now.
And as for the pastiches, I'm more open-minded about it. I've read some of the old marvel comics, and while some of the stories weren't so hot, some were really good. I imagine it's the same way with the pastiches. The advice I've been given regarding the pastiches is stick with the ones written by L.Sprague DeCamp, Lin Carter, Bjorn Nyemberg (sp?), Poul Anderson, Andrew J. Offut, Robert Jordan, and Karl Edward Wagner, and to steer clear of the myriad TOR pastiches from Roland Green, John C. Hocking, and the rest, as I hear they're deplorable.
I do wish they'd put the pastiches of DeCamp, Carter, Nyemburg, Anderson, Offut, wnd Wagner in multiple omnibus edition like they did Jordan's so I don't have to break my neck to find all of them as they're out of print in single form.
I've seen novels based around the MMORPG: Age of Conan, but I'm afraid they might be truly terrible. Has anyone here read them?

 

[Kazz Wylde]

Hey cool, another true Conan fan. You're right about the pastiches, its been quite a few years but I read a bunch of them, just cause I was that big a Conan fan, they were pretty bad. lol

 

[hippokrene]

Ferretbrain tackles the sexism and racism in Howard's work in We need to talk about Conan.

 

[Kazz Wylde]

Ferretbrain tackles the sexism and racism in Howard's work in We need to talk about Conan.

Yeah, Conan rules.

 

[Hobbit]

It's an interesting and well thought out article, hippo: thanks for raising it.

Though I don't agree with everything he concludes (at one point conflicts himself by saying both that he can see nothing to recommend Conan in reading for pleasure and yet in the history of the genre it is not an optional read) it's a thoughtful and honest attempt to examine Conan.

I like Elric too, though many dislike. And Lovecraft... even though a person I think I would find his views unpleasant.

Whilst I'm not happy with some of the things that happen in the Conan tales, they are there to make a point and they are reflective of the material being published 80 years or so ago. Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu, Doc Savage, Jules de Grandin - all have aspects of this too which make them sit uncomfortably with modern tastes.

We've come a long way: but I think it's important to at least have a go at reading some of the material that inspired, both in a good and a bad way, what we read today.

Mark

 

[Luke_B]

Reread the first Lancer collection of Conan stories by Robert E. Howard, L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter. The Howard stories remained great for me, but the de Camp and Carter contributions are pretty awful, even more so on rereading. It's not only that they didn't get the character, but the stories are bloated epics compressed clunkily into short form, not the sharp bits of fantasy noir that Howard mastered in. "The Tower of the Elephant" is probably my favourite in this collection, but "Rogues in the House" and "The God in the Bowl" are also classics. Despite the dross, this is a strong book just for the presence of those three tales alone. Also, great Frazetta artwork depicting the battle with Thak from "Rogues..."

 

[Hobbit]

Didn't de Camp & Carter re-edit some of the Howard stories in these collections "for a more modern audience"?

I seem to remember some fans really not liking them for that reason.

M.

 

[Luke_B]

The Lancer books purported to present the Conan stories in internal chronological order, and de Camp and Carter fill the gaps with their own pastiches or by completing fragments started by Howard before his death. The series is edited by de Camp and Carter but the changes to completed Howard works are minimal as far as I'm aware. For any Howard purist this series is likely to be an anathema though. Personally, I like the series for its important place in the 70s resurgence of sword or sorcery and the striking Frazetta covers. Also, I like de Camp when teamed up with other writers (e.g. the Harold Shea stories written in partnership with Fletcher Pratt).

My understanding in relation to de Camp and Carter's contributions to this collection is as follows:

• "The Thing in the Crypt" - a repurposed and rebranded Lin Carter Thongor story. Doesn't translate well as a Conan tale.
• "The Tower of the Elephant" - pure Howard.
• "The Hall of the Dead" - expanded from a fragment by Howard into a completed story by de Camp. Has some nice elements. Very rushed ending. Probably the most successful contribution from the editors.
• "The God in the Bowl" - pure Howard.
• "Rogues in the House" - pure Howard.
• "The Hand of Nergal" - expanded from a fragment by Howard into completed story by Carter. This one is where the joins show the most. The story starts with Conan, the lone survivor of a battle on a desolate field besieged by shadow bats, and is striking in its imagery. I assume this was Howard's fragment. Then the story devolves into a bland good vs evil struggle which is so out of place within the broader Conan cosmology and must be Carter' s contribution to what is ultimately a disappointing steaming pile.
• "The City of Skulls" - pure de Camp and Carter. Bleh.