Difficult names to pronounce

[Sammie]

Posted by Draxinusom:
Saruman is almost automatically pronounced correctly by a german speaking person, the "Sa" is not as in engl. sand but rather like the end in the name "Melissa" (ie not "sänd" like a german would write/speak it)

OKay, I'm sitting here in the computer room looking like a complete muppet, cos i keep muttering to myself, but i have said them both over and over and as far as i can tell i pronounce the 'sa' in both 'Melissa' and 'sand' exactly the same. The same way as i would pronouce the 'sa' in 'saruman' if i thought it wsa a german word. (also sitting her muttering "Er heisst Saruman" to myself )

Perhaps it's just me - my English can be 'frightfully' BBC & 'clipped' at times .

(and no, this post is not important - i'm just sharing )

 

[Mamb]

Originally posted by Sammie


OKay, I'm sitting here in the computer room looking like a complete muppet, cos i keep muttering to myself, but i have said them both over and over and as far as i can tell i pronounce the 'sa' in both 'Melissa' and 'sand' exactly the same. The same way as i would pronouce the 'sa' in 'saruman' if i thought it wsa a german word. (also sitting her muttering "Er heisst Saruman" to myself )

It took me a lot of foolish-sounding mutterings as well, but i think I've worked this one out. The 'sa' in 'Melissa' is more of a 'suh' whereas in 'sand', the 'a' is pronounced as a child says the phonetic alphabet (i.e. a, buh, curly cuh...).
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to try and explain this

However, that was just a side issue. I don't know the correct way to say Saruman. And by the way, how do you know that the film pronunciations are as Tolkien intended?

 

[Draxinusom]

Ah yes its very difficult to explain too...! (Should probably not have slept through the phoenetics part...)

The "-sa" ending in Melissa is more like an "saaahh" while the sa in sand is more like a "sa-end" which is why I wrote "sänd" in my post further up since ae becomes the ä-umlaut in german.

However, British english in my experience is nearer to the saah type then the "sae" of American english.

It might probably help saying Sauron (sour-on) and then to try to say only the Sa-part of that (without the beginning u-sound)

Well reading the above paragraphs and then thinking about them makes me realize it is possibly unclear what I'm trying to tell unless you already know what I really mean. It's probably far easier to simply watch the new, second Trailer of LotR:TTT which you can watch at the link below and listen to what they say because both names are spoken there. ("Sauron" at position 1:01 for the first time and "Saruman" at position 1:06 and 1:13)

Of course the Trailer is quite full of SPOILERS so if you don't know the story past The Two Towers I don't recommend watching the trailer at all.
(Link to Trailer here)


Mamb said:

However, that was just a side issue. I don't know the correct way to say Saruman. And by the way, how do you know that the film pronunciations are as Tolkien intended?

Good question. Peter Jackson was quite clever in not only get Alan Lee (a famous artist who created many Tolkien-inspired pictures) as Conceptual-Designer but he did also get a lot of the people who study the languages of Tolkien (there is an entire society doing that, see this link !)

As you might know, Tolkien left quite some notes on how to pronounce the words and dictionaries of his languages. Part of it is usually found in the appendices of the LotR books but more seems to be available in the "background-books" (Silmarillian, Lost tales, etc.) as well as in the notes from Tolkien himself that his son Christopher is collecting and publishing.

Also there are some audiosamples of Tolkien speaking parts of the book, so it is possible that there are audio-records where he speaks the names.

Whatever the case, IF someone knows how to pronounce all those names, then it is those few indivinduals who made it their pass-time to study those languages and those have been consulting and working with Peter Jackson. So I'm fairly confident that they have it right.

Edit: moved the link inside spoiler warning and made it more clear as to not repeat the stor-all desaster

 

[Stor-All]

Drax-
I unfortunately watched the trailor up until the part where they say Saruman and Sauron's names, and then proceeded to read

Of course the Trailer is quite full of spoilers so if you don't know the story past The Two Towers I don't recommend watching the trailer at all.

So I did have a minor something spoilt for me, however I had my suspicions. Not your fault though

 

[Sepulchrave]

Originally posted by Draxinusom
The reason for my scepsis is that, as I initially wrote, all the names are very easy to pronounce correctly by german speaking people but there is simply no th in german nor in the few nordic languages I know.

Tolkien really liked Old English, which is related to German but does have the th sound. *pages through Concise Guide to the World's Languages* I think the Germanic languages originally had it, but most have lost it. (Icelandic and English are the only ones I can find that have it.)

Originally posted by Draxinusom
However, British english in my experience is nearer to the saah type then the "sae" of American english.

I think the "ae" sound you're talking about is as in British English "trap." Here in the Midwestern US we use that sound for just about any short a.

Originally posted by Mamb
And by the way, how do you know that the film pronunciations are as Tolkien intended?

In the trailer, I heard them pronounce Uruk-Hai "Uruk-Hay." According to the appendix to RotK, which i am now referring to, that should be "Uruk-Hye." The movie pronunciation of "Sauron" is right, though.

Anyway, one unpronounceable name that deseves mention is George R.R. Martin's "Xho." Simple, but confounding. I can figure out sensible ways to pronounce his "qh," or even "jh," but "xh?" What the heck?

 

[Draxinusom]

Originally posted by Sepulchrave

I think the "ae" sound you're talking about is as in British English "trap." Here in the Midwestern US we use that sound for just about any short a.

Ah yes exactly THAT! Thanks. Yes the trap a-sound is exactly how the german umlaut "ä" (have fun finding THAT on your keyboard ) sounds. And which you should not use when pronouncing Saruman or Sauron.

In the trailer, I heard them pronounce Uruk-Hai "Uruk-Hay." According to the appendix to RotK, which i am now referring to, that should be "Uruk-Hye." The movie pronunciation of "Sauron" is right, though.

Actually were you to present me the three variations (Uruk-Hai, Uruk-Hay and Uruk-Hye) and told me to speak them in German I would pronounce all of them the same way. Possibly adding a silent "e" at the end of the third but basically its the same for me.

Anyway, one unpronounceable name that deseves mention is George R.R. Martin's "Xho." Simple, but confounding. I can figure out sensible ways to pronounce his "qh," or even "jh," but "xh?" What the heck?

Uh, I'd spontaneously say "Xsooo" or so.

Edit: note to self: getting old, forget to close tags again

 

[MrKip]

I always pronounced Xho (this is going to be bloody hard to explain) 'Jo' but with a soft 'j' instead of a hard 'j'. Like saying the middle part of 'Roger' in a French accent...I think.
Although thinking about it, it could be 'Zo'. I mean, Xylophone is a Z so why not Xho?

 

[Mamb]

Mmm, I agree with Mr. Kip about the soft J sound, which is sometimes phonetically spelled with a "zh", as in Dr. Zhivago.

And thanks for filling me in on the LOTR stuff, Drax . I had no idea that Tolkien was so thorough with his appendices and background books. Being the infidel that i am, I gave up reading FOTR after about 150-200 pages, but I plan to watch the films instead.

 

[Mamb]

Some SoIaF names, and my pronunciations. What do you think?

Cersei - Sers-EYE
Daenerys - Dy-AN-er-iss
Arya - Aar-ya
Grand Maester Pycelle - Grand My-ster Pee-SELL
Jaime - Jai-muh
Rhaegar Targaryen - Ree-gar Tar-GAR-yen
Arryn- a-RYN

 

[Beldaran]

I remember when I read M,S & T,I read the Pryrates as pyrates and Sludig as Sludvig. Which was my own misstake.

But there's many other names that are difficult to pronounce
in for example K.Kerr's bookes and R.Jordan's bookes
But in Finish you prounance the words as their written.

 

[Daenerys]

Originally posted by Mamb
Some SoIaF names, and my pronunciations. What do you think?

Cersei - Sers-EYE
Daenerys - Dy-AN-er-iss
Arya - Aar-ya
Grand Maester Pycelle - Grand My-ster Pee-SELL
Jaime - Jai-muh
Rhaegar Targaryen - Ree-gar Tar-GAR-yen
Arryn- a-RYN

Hmm. I have been asked how I would pronounce Daenerys, and I do treat it differently, because of my Dutch background. I would say either: Day-eh-neer-is or Day-neer-is. Since I shorten it (as my nick) to Dae instead of Dany (which led me to conclude the Day-sound in the beginning might be okay), I usually pronounce that as Day. But then, that is how I see the name.

Cersei to me should sound like sir-say... I guess. We should use the phonetics alphabet for this... if only I could find that...

 

[gwenllian]

Lol!! Reading all this was well interesting!! People who have problems pronouncing things should move to Wales! Lol!! They have some of the most impossible words!! It's hell trying to learn the language...!

 

[kyria]

I've always pronounced Cersei SIR-say, and Daenerys as DAY-ne-rees.

I think Xho should be pronounced as it is spelled. When you say 'x' as in the letter x, you pronounce it as 'eks', right? Now, just try it without the 'e' in front, just the 'ks' part. So, Xho becomes kinda like 'kso'. Then stick an 'h' sound (as in 'hand' or 'help') in the middle of the 'ks' and the 'o' sound, so it becomes 'ks-h-o', then practice and pronounce it really fast. Your 's' sound should sound like as if you have a lisp.

Then pronounce 'Xho' forcefully. Put your hand in front of your mouth and say 'Xho', you should feel a tiny blast of air on your hand.

Eddings has some difficult names. I quite forgot the names and I just borrowed the books. Cthull or something, and Txaroth, I think, mostly bad guys' cities.

Also, I started out pronouncing Nynaeve NIN-a-yev before I checked the guide at the back and found out it was supposed to be NY-neev.

 

[milamber_reborn]

Xho - zo
Daenerys - Day-near-iss, Day-en-eer-is, iz instead of is
Cersei - Ser-say (sers-eye sounds too weird)
Rhaegar Targaryen - Ray-gar Tar-gar-yen (not gar as in garth though)
ae should be pronounced ay (eg. Maester - may-ster)
Pycelle (Pie-sell - could be wrong though)
Jaime - Jamie
Arya - Agh-rya

I pronounced Nynaeve and Seanchan completely wrong for until book 4 I think when I first saw a glossary. I still don't pronounce Aiel as Isle though or Cairhien as Keerian - which sounds like Korean.

 

[Stor-All]

I used to pronounce Cairhien as two syllables - something like care (as in "I care about...") hin. Then I checked the back of the book and listened to someone actually saying it online and now I say it that way it is supposed to be said.

 

[Asraloth]

Xho: agree about the soft "j" thing. in english that is how we spell some chinese words like "xian," (chinese sword).

in one of my stories, there is a character called Xiu and this is pronounced as zhoo, with the soft j sound at the start.

Cersei; i always took this as the same as the witch out of the Odyssey, Circe. so i pronounce it ser-see.

i like reading simple names that are pleasing to the ear. one of my favourites is "Aurian" from the book of the same name.

 

[Daenerys]

Originally posted by gwenllian
Lol!! Reading all this was well interesting!! People who have problems pronouncing things should move to Wales! Lol!! They have some of the most impossible words!! It's hell trying to learn the language...!

O yeah? Well, I'd like to see the welsh try and pronounce "grachtengordel", inculding the throat-sound G, which sounds like some one clearing his/her throat to spit. Welsh does not sound too difficult... they just spell in a freaky kinda way...

The thing is that English has so many different sounds, that most authors struggle to find the correct spelling for the names and words they need. For some sounds there are many combinations, and some letters have many ways of being used to represent sounds in words. So there. If I were to pronounce some of the names in Dutch, instead of English, they would sound ever weirder.

Daenerys would be... dah-uh-nih-rah-ihs. And that is trying to spell as phonetically as I can...

 

[Cardo]

The words Sauron and Saruman seem to go right when I pronounce them as Finnish words. Didn't Tolkien study Finnish, I would remember that he learnt enough finnish to be able to read The Kalevala, which is an old finnish book of myths.

And about pronouncing words in fantasy books in general, I've never had any problems pronouncing them. I've always pronouced them first in a English-Swedish kind of a way and if that hasn't done the trick I can always use Finnish. Using Finnish pronouncing rules on a name is very easy but it can sound quite brutal to use Finnish rules on a name written by an englishman., but atleast Finns can pronounce almost anything, even if it would go as wrong as it ever can

 

[mikabl]

Kurremkarmerruk, might not be the hardest to pronounce, but I've always remembered it.

 

[Mears]

Originally posted by Daenerys
Daenerys would be... dah-uh-nih-rah-ihs. And that is trying to spell as phonetically as I can...

I would pronounce your nick De-nee-rees. The ae is pronounced E. and the y as in Ygor. A beautiful name it is too, if you don't mind me saying.

I just do the best I can with the fantasy names in general, after all it is only at public readings that it matters.

If you think Welsh is bad what about Irish Gaelic, Dun Laoghaire is actually pronounced Dun Leary.