First novel?

[Asimovking]

Hi guys. I've been doing alot of thinking and have decided what I want to do as my first novel. I have heard that it is easier to get published for the first time if your novel is short (im guessing 250-300 pages?) But i think my idea, although being a one novel idea, will be more like 500-700 pages. Of course there actually isn't any way to know until its finished.

Anyway my question is: Is it true that it would be best to keep my first novel around 250-300 pages? If that's the case it would actually only be the first half of a novel (like Hyperion) or the first of two books. Or would I be just as well off trying to publish it at full length (something like 500-700 pages)?

 

[Wojciehowicz]

That is the general gist of advice I've seen over the years, but in this new age of the net, it depends. Stephanie Meyer could write in proto-Aramaic with a Highlighter® on toilet paper and churn out something going the length of a 24 count family pack of Charmin® and people would still buy it whether or not they read it as long as one vampire was in it. It's a matter of interest. In this new age, if you generate the interest first, you might get away with pushing with L. Ron Hubbard's level of assault on literary patience. Or, if the story starts at Warp 9 at the Crazytown city limits and only revs up from there, maybe then. And of course, lucking out because a book of the month club needed to deliver something that competes with the Los Angeles phone book because they haven't in a while.

Go with fast thinking characters whose circumstances don't allow for time to review their feelings for nine pages or people who want to wax philosophical about the economics of interplanetary fruit sales and shipping, and there you go. Don't choose anything that doesn't pace itself quickly enough to be done in the out of the gate opener. BUT, make sure it is a stand alone and DOESN'T need a sequel. As in, leave all the characters who might be popular enough for a sequel demand in some state where you could if you wanted, but you wouldn't care either way if the demand wasn't there. Just don't telegraph it. My 2 cents, for what it is worth.

 

[Laer Carroll]

story first, length later

Write what you love, not what you think the market “wants.” Even if you guessed correctly, and got the book published, what “everyone” wants two years down the line may be something entirely different.

Anyway, you don’t need to write for everyone. Only for enough of everyone to make decent sales.

And on the third hand people often don’t know what they want, absolutely, until they encounter that startling new take on an old theme.

As for length, consider the story first. Does it need length, because it has a lot of characters with complex issues, working in a complex milieu, or is it more compact?

AFTER your book is done and you’ve let it sit while you work on something else, THEN you may think about trimming it. Or, possibly, do some body-building on some scenes which are a little too puny.

 

[Ramirez]

Write what you love, not what you think the market “wants.” Even if you guessed correctly, and got the book published, what “everyone” wants two years down the line may be something entirely different.

Anyway, you don’t need to write for everyone. Only for enough of everyone to make decent sales.

And on the third hand people often don’t know what they want, absolutely, until they encounter that startling new take on an old theme.

As for length, consider the story first. Does it need length, because it has a lot of characters with complex issues, working in a complex milieu, or is it more compact?

AFTER your book is done and you’ve let it sit while you work on something else, THEN you may think about trimming it. Or, possibly, do some body-building on some scenes which are a little too puny.

I completely agree.

 

[Chris_KW]

Write what you love, not what you think the market “wants.”

Nail, meet hammer.

 

[kmtolan]

If you intend self-publishing, write as long a book as you want (and your distributors can handle).

Getting published does bring restrictions. The average length right now seems to be around 80k for the e-pubs (where new writers stand the best chance right now). You can push it with a good story, but not by too much (and even four hundred pages might be too much). Read the publisher's guidelines.

Kerry

 

[Taramoc]

I'm doomed... I'm just putting the finishing touches on my first novel, clocking at 200k words, that will never see the light of day in a bookstore.

I guess I should axe the storyline of the spy master handler posing as a priest of a new cult to run his operation. The should bring it down to 160k.

Wait, if I do that, the boy who redeemed himself saving her soulmate from a life of begging wouldn't have a mentor anymore. Gotta cut him out too, that should bring me down to 120k.

Hold on, if I cut the boy, I won't have any way to access the offworld portal in the basement of one of the abandoned house of the capital of the Empire. Fine, that goes too, that should bring me down to 80k, yeah!

Ops, just realized that without the portal, the army pushing to come into my world won't have a way to access it anymore. I'll take it out, that should bring me to 65k, a bit on the low side, but it should be ok.

Holy crap, without the army my main conflict goes out of the window. That means I'm down to 10k words of descriptions and social commentaries. I'm sure my readers won't mind...

Did I set out to write 200k words? No, I didn't. My characters and plot lines brought me there. Will I cut it to stay under a perceived number that I have to adhere at to be published? No, my story would lose its awesomeness.

Just write what you want to write, and don't worry about the word count. It's about the journey, not the destination. Also, you can always write another book after this one.

 

[kmtolan]

Just write what you want to write, and don't worry about the word count. It's about the journey, not the destination.

I would say that it's about the journey when you don't care about being picked up by a publisher. The artist vs the professional artist is a long-running argument on this forum that has been riddled with pummeled equine remains.

Speaking as a professional, I wouldn't horse around. Write what you want within the guidelines of what publishers are accepting. Any writer worth their salt ought to be able to do that, me-thinks. Book too long? Fine, make a series out of it. Been there and done that.

Kerry

 

[KatG]

I've been down this particular road here too many times. Publishers publish a variety of length, including long tomes, as first novels, particularly in secondary world fantasy:

Among Thieves, Douglas Hulick: 432 pages
The Unremembered, Peter Orullian: 672 pages
The Winds of Khalakovo, Bradley P. Beaulieu: 464 pages
Thunderer, Felix Gilman: 544 pages
The Warded Man, Peter Brett: 480 pages
Empire of Black & Gold, Adrian Tchaikovsky: 612 pages
The Red Wolf Conspiracy, Robert Redick: 544 pages
The Lies of Locke Lamora, Scott Lynch: 736 pages
The Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss: 672 pages

 

[Taramoc]

Thank you Kat, that was I was getting at.

Also, it's not true that you can always divide a long story in books, especially in secondary world fantasy.

I shiver at the idea of Gardens of the Moon (Erikson) or Game of Thrones (Martin) split up to stay under 90k words.

Taramoc

 

[Asimovking]

Thanks for the advice guys. And feel free to give more. I never intended to warp my story at all to fit guidelines. Just was debating one good sized novel or divide it in half. Also was asking to get opinions because i know there are real authors on here. In my opinion this idea is too big for one novel if it runs at 250-300 pages or 80k words. How much does it cost to self E-publish? And about how long would it take to shop the novel? I would definitely be writing another unrelated novel while shopping this novel. I've outlined two stand alone novels and the beginnings of two seperate series.

Also i apologize for not mentioning it before, but this novel would be space opera science fiction. Currently I don't intend on writing anything besides science fiction. Lol.

Speaking as a professional, I wouldn't horse around. Write what you want within the guidelines of what publishers are accepting. Any writer worth their salt ought to be able to do that, me-thinks. Book too long? Fine, make a series out of it. Been there and done that.

Kerry

I think this is what I will aim for. I know there isn't much money to be made. I could make $10 total off of having a million readers and I wouldn't care. But getting published means more exposure than self publishing, I assume. Which is what I want, people to have a chance to read my novels instead of not even having a choice because they never hear about them.

I believe that if I am wrong on this assumption then I might as well go ahead and write exactly how I want without any care for publishing guidelines, with full intention of self publishing and shop it first just to see what happens.

Any ideas? I think I just confused myself...

 

[Jon Sprunk]

I think the best advice for story length is: write it as long as it needs to be, not one word more or less.

As Kat (I almost typed 'Kit') pointed out, every year there are big, huge books published.

That being said, if I had a 200k debut novel waiting to be sent out, I would go through it with the fine-tooth comb and make I'm not wasting words. I don't know about you, but I tend to be long-winded in my first drafts, saying the same thing two or three times sometimes. I can lose up to 25% of the word count on the second pass when I condense those free-ranging ideas.

 

[Kaeru]

Jon: if you'd typed Kit, I would have been trying to figure out why you were replying to me. The resultant confusion could have been somewhat amusing.

I'm going to be original here and say let the story be the length it requires. Otherwise, it'll take twice the time and effort to smooth it out again and it still may not sound natural. Write it, then cut out the fluff that doesn't contribute. If there's very little fluff, that's still fine.

 

[kmtolan]

Any ideas? I think I just confused myself...

Regarding exposure, you will have more exposure than being self-published. You will also have "credentials" of being published. That said, your exposure is limited by three factors:

1. The small press audience. Each indie tends to have a readership that keeps coming back them. Among these folks you will have a good exposure. Keep in mind, however, that if the small press features multiple genres, some of that readership won't be interested in your SF.

2. The distribution methods of the small press. The more places the publisher sells their wares, the better for you.

Based on these two factors, your perfect publisher will be a well-established outfit with SF as its primary or secondary genre. You also want a publisher who is out there on Amazon, Fictionwise, B&N, and has a presence with both the Apple and Android apps. Better still if the publisher also provides digital print on demand.

3. Finally, when it comes to promoting, you have to do the work yourself for the most part with an e-pub. Become a fixture at local SF/Fantasy conventions. Get out on blogs. Get reviews if you can, and most certainly establish your own author's web site. Join EPIC (the guild that does accept e-book authors.)

Hope this helps.

Kerry

 

[Andrez]

Kerry, this is great advice (above). Couldn't agree more.

 

[KatG]

Space opera SF novels also run on the long side.

And yes, books can be split, whether you're working with a publisher or self-publishing. But the key thing is to get the story where you want it, then see if you need to chop it. And then if you want to try with a publisher first, try to get an agent first, I'd suggest.

 

[hippokrene]

Hi guys. I've been doing alot of thinking and have decided what I want to do as my first novel. I have heard that it is easier to get published for the first time if your novel is short (im guessing 250-300 pages?) But i think my idea, although being a one novel idea, will be more like 500-700 pages. Of course there actually isn't any way to know until its finished.

1. It's unlikely you'll publish your first novel. It's unlikely your first novel will be something you'll even want to see the light of day. This means there's no pressure to be publishable.

2. Page count doesn't mean much as it depends on font and page size. A good novel size is 80,000 - 100,000 words.

Write what you love, not what you think the market “wants.”

At the same time, don't love what you write so much that you're unwilling hack at it with a large axe if it gets too long, too bloated, or too unfocused. The goal is to tell a good story, not a long one.

 

[Asimovking]

Thanks for all your help. You guys rock

 

[Asimovking]

I think the best advice for story length is: write it as long as it needs to be, not one word more or less.

As Kat (I almost typed 'Kit') pointed out, every year there are big, huge books published.

That being said, if I had a 200k debut novel waiting to be sent out, I would go through it with the fine-tooth comb and make I'm not wasting words. I don't know about you, but I tend to be long-winded in my first drafts, saying the same thing two or three times sometimes. I can lose up to 25% of the word count on the second pass when I condense those free-ranging ideas.

This will definitely be how I write. I can already imagine shaving 40-50% off the first draft.

 

[A. Lynn]

...particularly in secondary world fantasy...

I sincerely hope nobody crowns me with the ignorance cap, however, I am not convinced that I truly know what "secondary world fantasy" is. Will somebody illuminate me?