God, Fantasy and Belief

In the boat, apply the golden rule. The Captain makes the decision because he is the frigging Captain and that's what Captains are expected to do. No time for a vote and no time to lollygag. Greatest good for greatest number still applies. As long as they are multiples of others, the decisions become easier. If it's just the Captain and one other, it is not so straightforward.

Have trouble seeing where the golden rule will not apply as a basis for right and wrong. Even if I am the only one around, then asking whether something I am about to do, get a tattoo, get smashed, commit suicide, masturbate, anything at all can be answered with the same question. It's just easier to know what the answer will be.
 
In the case of the ship and the captain, he did do the greatest good for the greatest number. They threw the weakest overboard to save the rest of the survivors. The lifeboat was eventually rescued and the captain was tried for his crime.
 
Nobody ever said life was fair.
Sure makes a good case for the relativists, though, doesn't it? Easy to pass judgment after the fact.
 
You guys saw me off! LOL!

Interesting stuff. :)
So Gary, this is the ethical questing at the heart of your work? Has it thrown up any answers for you?
 
Hereford Eye said:
In the boat, apply the golden rule. The Captain makes the decision because he is the frigging Captain and that's what Captains are expected to do. No time for a vote and no time to lollygag. Greatest good for greatest number still applies. As long as they are multiples of others, the decisions become easier. If it's just the Captain and one other, it is not so straightforward.

Suppose quite a few of the stronger people who are supposed to row decide they do not want to survive on the deaths of weaker people. Suppose they decide to push the captain overboard, instead, so that they can tempt "fate". They all die. Was what they did wrong? They did know chances were slim from the get go. They didn't doubt the captain's assessment of survival chances. They just decided that on that head count survival wasn't worth it.

There are situations where whatever you do, you won't be happy with the outcome. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. But sometimes you just can't decide what is the lesser of two evils.

I think ultimately life is a gamble; you've got limited control over the stakes, some more over what kind of game you want to play. Right and Wrong are just macros for incredibly complex thought processes, anticipating rewards and frustrations.

The Golden Rule is useful when having to decide for a great number of people (i.e. for governments, organisations...). In face to face situations that defy routine it's only useful if most happen to subscribe to it.

There are no easy decisions, though decisions become a lot easier with convictions. That's - ultimately - why we end up with ideologies, I think. Because we can't always figure it out anew. It would wear us out (some sooner, some later).

***

Edit: Gotta love a thread where three posts appear while you're typing! :D
 
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It is at the heart of all of my books, even including my children's books. For me it's thematic. Has it helped me? Yes, in some ways. It always helps me to reason, and the discovery process of the story I am writing runs parallel to much of this. I do find though that the more I reason, the less I am comfortable with the answers that have sustained me most of my life. Again, the rift between logic and feeling, reason and sensibility seems always to grow broader and wider, rather than narrower. I was very hopeful in the beginning of GemQuest. The characters were more intuitive and less self-conscious. But as I examined more the intuitive aspects of their choices, they started to lose their solidity as foundations for ethical judgments.


Very very astute comment, Dawnstorm: decisions become easier with convictions. The conviction, the belief, convinces us of the rightness of our action.
 
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So how can society as a whole step outside the conscious world of "ego" and attempt to solve the mysteries at hand? Does anyone think it is even possible to objectively rid of "ego"?
 
Ah, DS, is not morality always a personal choice?
I give you, for example, the Oriestiai: Agamemnon, Clytemnestra, Oriestes all make personal choices. In the latter case, the poor sod is simply carrying out Apollo's instructiions. But, as the Furies are quick to point out, it was his decision and his act.
If the strongest make personal choices, they exercise their morality. The question I responded to was for El Capitan. If El Capitan is outed from the boat, then someone else makes the choice. If everyone is using the golden rule, sooner or later someone still has to make a decision. Whether all will approve of the decision doesn't matter, before, during, or after the fact. What matters is that a decision is made. After that, the news media can decide whether it was moral or not. :p The person making the decision has little doubt.
 
The greatest good for the greatest number? What if the majority decide the minority is to be destroyed? Nazi Germany being the obvious example.
 
Hereford Eye said:
Ah, DS, is not morality always a personal choice?

Certainly.

I give you, for example, the Oriestiai: Agamemnon, Clytemnestra, Oriestes all make personal choices. In the latter case, the poor sod is simply carrying out Apollo's instructiions. But, as the Furies are quick to point out, it was his decision and his act.

Agree.

If the strongest make personal choices, they exercise their morality. The question I responded to was for El Capitan. If El Capitan is outed from the boat, then someone else makes the choice. If everyone is using the golden rule, sooner or later someone still has to make a decision. Whether all will approve of the decision doesn't matter, before, during, or after the fact. What matters is that a decision is made. After that, the news media can decide whether it was moral or not. :p The person making the decision has little doubt.

Definitely.

***

And now, after all this, tell me: why do I need to speak about a golden rule at all. Basically, what it boils down to is this: do what you will and live with the consequences. See, in the Captain's case, you may say he applied the Golden Rule; problem is that he's implied a hierarchy of values: survival over honor (if we can call it that). Apparantly, he decided so over opposition. Fine. His decision.

Now this is a stretch, but say that boat was full of people who were (a) bound to honour those higher up in the hierarchy (and they recognise the captain as such), and (b) they are bound by honour to protect the weak at all cost. Let's say, (a) ovverrides (b), but doesn't resolve them of the possibility. The penalty for failing to protect the weak is death by their own hand. Now, they are all known to be stubborn moralists. If the Captain orders them to push the weak over board, they will do so. If the Captain orders them to row, they will do so. But once they are safe on dry land, the captain's power over them ends. They will now all kill themselves, because they violated (b). Assuming the Captain is aware of this, what does the Golden Rule say his decision should be? Force life over honour on them? If not, what exactly does the Golden Rule add to the decision process?

My point is that the Golden Rule doesn't solve any moral problems, it just makes decisions easier if you're stubborn enough to adhere to it against opposition.

Introduce the "Golden Rule" into a Game Theory framework, and all hell breaks loose. Prisoner's Dilemma anyone?

***

Edit: Hmm... perhaps, the Prisoner's dilemma actually supports the Golden Rule; or, rather, explains why it would work...

Sometimes you wish you'd thought longer, before posting random stuff... :cool:
 
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What if you were a sadist Yob? You would then be right in inflicting pain on others? The relativism you propose has flaws. And the imperative, the golden rule so to speak, seems nice, but it's hard to cover all bases with it.

Oh its not relativism. The race of canibal murderers should be locked up until they die. I don't care if they don't think its wrong, it just is.

Its unfortunate they choose to be an evil society, but thats not an excuse. I agree with most laws in my society, and those i don't agree with i generally ignore. Personal morality and societal morality are two different things, and for me the former is more important.

There is no objective way to decide if my morality is 'correct' or the cannibal's. But that's just life. Its another reason religion is attractive i guess - it gives you the answers. But IMO there are no answers.
 
Thank you, Boll. My sentiments exactly. Opinion is not the yardstick. The majority is not the yardstick. The herd can be taught to follow just about anyone when its personal safety and welfare is at stake, sad to say. And it can be even more easily coerced to follow.

So what should the yardstick be? What are our personal yardsticks? Again I ask, who are our gods and what shape have they assumed for us today? The god of Marxism has faded, the God of our fathers is ineffective and we see corruption everywhere. Rome fell ages ago. So who are our gods today? The god of nothingness? Nihilism? Surely we all have gods. The god of self indulgence? Who? Tell me?
 
Now this is a stretch, but say that boat was full of people who were (a) bound to honour those higher up in the hierarchy (and they recognise the captain as such), and (b) they are bound by honour to protect the weak at all cost. Let's say, (a) ovverrides (b), but doesn't resolve them of the possibility. The penalty for failing to protect the weak is death by their own hand. Now, they are all known to be stubborn moralists. If the Captain orders them to push the weak over board, they will do so. If the Captain orders them to row, they will do so. But once they are safe on dry land, the captain's power over them ends. They will now all kill themselves, because they violated (b). Assuming the Captain is aware of this, what does the Golden Rule say his decision should be? Force life over honour on them? If not, what exactly does the Golden Rule add to the decision process?

In this case surely the golden rule tells the captain he should order his crew (or the strong) to die. Their stupid honour would be satisfied for (a) and (b), and the same number of people survive.


Boll, i dont see the nazi's as using any sort of twisted golden rule. There was no 'need of the many' satisfied. There was a 'temporary uninformed desire of the many' chosen over the 'needs of the few'.
 
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Yobmod said:
In this case surely the golden rule tells the captain he should order his crew (or the strong) to die. Their stupid honour would be satisfied for (a) and (b), and the same number of people survive.

You're assuming that killing themselves is "attonement". It isn't. It's a penalty (as I said). They are avoiding further dishonor by killing themselves; that does not negate the dishonor they've been through by pushing the weaker ones over board.

Thought experiment: A god whisks you away into just that situation. You have the choice: Strong, weak, captain. Who would you like to be?
 
Can we go back to Dawnstorm's statement earlier that decisions become easier when conviction supports them? What I am asking everyone who's posting here is to explain their convictions, in essence. I want to know what the reasoning process is behind the decisions, and so many have only told me what they believe to be true: their convictions. Few have told me why you put faith in these convictions and why you hold them to be true.

What's right about the golden rule? What makes it right and selfishness wrong? Why is it wrong to kill someone or to be cruel? What makes these things wrong? We may feel that they are wrong, but what makes them wrong? Our feelings are often mistaken and misguided. Why is it wrong to be selfish? Who's telling us it's wrong?
 
I mistrust convictions deeply, but I know I have quite a few. There are various reasons to express them in words; one of them is to instrumentalise them; to use them to gain some kind of advantage (not necessarily for yourself; see rhetorical speeches in politics). But another is to question them. By putting your convictions into words, you add an element to it that is not "purely you". They become tractable as other. The same words could have been pieced together by someone else; with another meaning in mind.

When I voice a conviction, doubt is implied. That is why I often find it hard to focus; I take my arguments apart, as I type them. I've been known, in the midst of a discussion, to abandon my position midsentence, even calling it rubbish, while the listeners were struggling to make sense of it. Frustrating for both.

So, ultimately, I suspect that the things I am convinced off are the ones I can't express yet. I do sometimes like a phrase, and repeat it, but my identification with it wanes with repition. It's automatic.

I've once wondered, whether I might distrust convictions because repetition bores me, eventually.

Then, there are those moments when you see your mind-set, as in a mirror. It happened in this thread. When Gary wrote this:

The Sawi people of New Guinea (now called Irian Jaya), in the early 1960s, were cannibals. In Sawi legend, their heroes weren't those who took the greatest number of heads, but those who were the most deceitful in befriending their victims before taking their heads. Friendship before betrayal would not prick their conscience because treachery was an ideal. So when missionaries, Don and Carol Richardson told them the story of Christ's life, who do you think was the real hero to the Sawi people? Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Jesus!

My first reaction was a chuckle. I had this cartoon impression of a gloating Sawi, and a naive Christian. The entire thing appealed to me on an anecdote level, but I didn't really think about it in depth. Reminded me of an aphorism, "Whenever cannibals are hungry, God sends them a nice, plump missionary." (Not verbatim, can't remember it; I think it's Oscar Wilde.) The appeal - to me - was that it showed up various mindframes. Different reference structures.

When Yobmod said the following, the entire thing changed, for me:

Oh its not relativism. The race of canibal murderers should be locked up until they die. I don't care if they don't think its wrong, it just is.

Strangely, I have less problems accepting "deceitful cannibals", than I have accepting this kind of attitude. I think it's the implied hostility and unwillingness to try and understand that upsets me.

But that's not the point, here. What struck me was that I realised I was caught in the same Judeo-Christian judgemental mindframe; thogh, with a different emotional slant. Remember how I said I had that image of a "gloating cannibal and a naive Christian"?

Turn your attention to the "gloating cannibal" part. I came to wonder, whether that isn't prejudice. All I have to go on is Gary's representation of - probably - some missionary's representation of the Sawi's legends. It didn't occur to me to question what the Missionary's might have missed.

Is the image of the "gloating cannibal" a projection? It didn't occur to me to ask questions. Such as: What did they make of Judas' suicide? Did they think Judas was Jesus enemy from the get go, or are things more complicated? What properties do the people have whose heads they take? Enemies? Victims? Cattle? Without lots of information, we tend to fill the holes in a story without ever realising we do so. (I saw the soon-to-be-headless as victims; even though most cannibal tribes tend to eat their enemies.) How do the Sawi behave to their friends? Are there taboos, things that are not to be used in the deceit? Do they reveal their prospective "victims" fate to them before they do it, or do they surprise them?

I'm convinced that - without answering questions such as these - any judgement on my part is incomplete.

And I think it's a fair assumption that there are always questions I fail to ask.

This is why I prefer comparatively simple moral frameworks (pain-pleasure, action-consequence) to those that involve blanket statements and words such as "noble", "evil"...
 
Gary Wassner said:
Can we go back to Dawnstorm's statement earlier that decisions become easier when conviction supports them? What I am asking everyone who's posting here is to explain their convictions, in essence. I want to know what the reasoning process is behind the decisions, and so many have only told me what they believe to be true: their convictions. Few have told me why you put faith in these convictions and why you hold them to be true.
Not sure if this is directed at me as not part of the "few", but let me say this....when I speak, I speak from what I know to be true to me. I am not a religious person, nor would I say I am an atheist either. I speak from my little, personal experience of 30 years in this existance. I say what works for me. I completely comprehend that what reasoning works for me may not and should not necessarily work for another person. I am a true believer in "to each his own".....especially when it does not affect my life.

What's right about the golden rule?
To me the golden rule is subjective.......now start talking about things based on the mathmatical golden mean and you have a different story! ;)
What makes it right and selfishness wrong?
Definitely KNOW I have already stated that my doing my whole "golden rule" thing it is self-serving therefore selfishness.....however, I think most of the time when I apply this, it betters others the same, regardless of my intentions.
Why is it wrong to kill someone or to be cruel?
It is wrong for me to kill or be cruel because it infuses ME with guilt. I do not know what the origins of this guilt is, all I do know is that if I did I would be left to deal with the results of my actions, something I don't wish to deal with, therefore I try not to make decisions or actions that would ultimately result in guilt. Not always successful, but I try.
What makes these things wrong? We may feel that they are wrong, but what makes them wrong? Our feelings are often mistaken and misguided. Why is it wrong to be selfish? Who's telling us it's wrong?
The greater society tells us when something is wrong, most of the time. From churches, to parents, to media to peer pressure, something will always be there telling us something or another is wrong. The key is to understanding and believing in oneself. Shakespeare said it best with, "To thine own self be true"....personal motto.
So is if being true to myself is wrong and selfish, then, well.....so be it.
 
Dawnstorm, it seems to me that you could deconstruct experience forever and not reach any sense that you have exhausted the interpretive possibilities. But I sympathize with the desire. I believe that's what a thinking person does all the time to different degrees.

Sephira, the more we discuss these issues, the more the moral quaqmire pulls us deeper in. God simplifies it all. And if we examine what underlies most of our convictions about moral choice, we can usually break it down to some form of God or gods. I say 'some form' because I interpret the term 'God or gods' in a much broader sense than most initially assume. I mean it as any transcendent or immanent concept, whether anthropomorphized or not, that we look to and say, 'the buck stops there'.
 
Gary,


I believe the moral quagmire of complex issues keeps pulling you into a simplifying assumption you want to be true. Now to address your idea of morals we have to address god otherwise we can't challenge your argument.

In fact it's a complicating assumption because you try to prove absolute morality with a god for which there is not and cannot be any proof. "Faith" does not qualify as proof. Further if you fuzzy up the edges of what you mean by god, as the baseline for your argument you have to define clearly what you mean, if you mean something different to what everybody understands by god it begs two questions: First is really therefore god at all? Second are you trying to have your cake and eat it by saying god is the bedrock of morality, but I have a conception of god that is vague hard to explain and you won't understand, thus using some sort of mysticism to deny logical deabte.

And we fail the Occam's razor test, by bringing in an entire mystical being concept to explain aspects of human behavior. I (and others) have argued that morals are modified survival traits deriving from evolution, there is actual evidence for this. Hence we do not multiply entities.

In the complex societies we have built our simplifying assumptions do not always suffice. We are like a donkey between two carrots that starves to death. It is not god that creates the donkeys confusion or indecision. Nor is it god that creates our confusion or indecision when faced with complex issues.
 
Oh and two other points:

1. If morals derive from god, then they must exist somewhere. Where are they? Can you point to them? Are they in the bible? If you cannot point to them then no solution is found even by invoking the god concept.

2. Which god? The bible...well contradictions are rife in the bible (as in most long word of god books). Unfortunately even if pointing to the bible then what about the Hindu, Muslim etc view. Whichever single book you point to places you in a minority, thus your bedrock absolute morals are not agreed to by the majority of the believing humans.
 

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