God, Fantasy and Belief

I wonder what would happen if we jumped chromosomes......46 & 2. Would this evolution bring us any closer to enlightenment or no? And if we jump, would the primates who are already at 48 jump to 50?

Interesting that humans are superior (or what we consider to be superior) by having 2 fewer chromosomes, than those of our closest cousins. The less is more arguement can surely be applied here, right? Hmmmm.....
 
I can't say that I don't tend to not disagree with you, Boll.

Dawnstorm- they did define cute: juvenile characteristics, a button nose, big eyes, pudgy cheeks. And they said that men and women showed identical responses to cute stimuli.
 
Boll Weevil said:
Dawnstorm,

Kudos to you, now I understand why you are titled "master obsfucator".

Never don't think that we do not fail to not enjoy such non-specific unrelated counter-factuals. Nor for these reasons are required to not understand those that might, but did not, come after or before the event didn't happen.

We would have not been able to salute you, had we not have been going to be doing something yesterday instead.

BW :p

I do my best(?). :cool:

Gary Wassner said:
Dawnstorm- they did define cute: juvenile characteristics, a button nose, big eyes, pudgy cheeks. And they said that men and women showed identical responses to cute stimuli.

Thanks, makes sense. :)

Sephira said:
Interesting that humans are superior (or what we consider to be superior) by having 2 fewer chromosomes, than those of our closest cousins.

Humans are superior? Care to expand on that?
 
The next question of course is why do we need clarity in this subject? And part of the answer lies in the fact that uncertainty makes us so uncomfortable. To think that we are not making our own decisions, when our entire identity is built around the sense that we have choice and that we are responsible for the choices we make, is very disconcerting.

It's very much like the contemplation of meaninglessness, and the subsequent adoption of a nihilistic attitude toward action and consequence. Why must we feel that we have a greater meaning beyond our personal pleasures and our personal lives? Are we hard-wired to need more than the physical and emotional? Is there a gene for meaning that if we stimulate it we will feel fulfilled spiritually?

No matter how often I hear that my actions are not my own and my decisions are subject to persuasions that I am unaware of, I am not moved by it. It just doesn't seem to bother me. I can't get hot under the collar about stuff like this.

But I can about faith and about God and about its relationship to fantasy and those who read and love it.
 
Gary Wassner said:
But I can about faith and about God and about its relationship to fantasy and those who read and love it.

Is this a clever and polite way of implying we should drop the "monkey" business and get back on track to the original topic? :p

**Dawn, what I meant to say was we are "intellectually" superior to primates. I don't think I have to argue that, or do I?
 
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Some of my best monkeys are friends. "Fly my pretties, fly."

I use them to terrorise the neighbourhood....and to steal small dogs.
 
sephira said:
**Dawn, what I meant to say was we are "intellectually" superior to primates. I don't think I have to argue that, or do I?

For the purpose of this thread, that's enough. :p
 
Boll Weevil said:
Some of my best monkeys are friends. "Fly my pretties, fly."

I use them to terrorise the neighbourhood....and to steal small dogs.

Your monkeys fly, but your squirrels don't. Who are you and where do you come from?

And thank you Dawn, I was hoping you would say that, for I am verbally languishing this afternoon.

Anyone think it strange I am having a craving for a banana right about now?
 
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And I am contributing to this too. Shame on me. ;)


I was having a discussion on another forum about darkness in fantasy today. I wonder if the trend toward graphic realism and dark, depressing themes has any relationship to the absence of the religious gene. In all seriousness, is there any correlation between the loss of faith and the change in focus in fantasy today? If we see no purpose and we feel meaningless all the time, then of course we would write dark books that reflect that. So has science and skepticism finally filtered down to the point where faith in transcendence of any form or even an imanent god of any kind is no longer an inspiring part of our fantasy reads?

We now have a new god, nihilism, at whose dirty feet we worship.
 
Vebally languishing? I once had a verbal langoustine..."don't eat me, don't eat me." It said, wouldn't shut up. Nag nag nag.

So, being a sucker for a sob story, I climbed to the top of the Empire State building and set it free. Did you know crustaceans can't fly? Sad it was.
 
Gary,

I think the developments in Fantasy today are evidence of the maturity of fantasy. It strikes me there are more overt "believers" in the middle of the USA than ever before...so I don't think that's a contributor to dark themes.

A lot of fantasy for a long time was dominated or influenced by the LOTR themes. Sci fi has for a long time walked the dystopia road...Fantasy is coming into its own, and finding itself more able to cast off the happy clappy land threatened by some dark force. Now in Bakker/Erikson/Martin and co they say, here are lands that are morally neutral..threatened by a dark force, or even an equally morally neutral force. In that respect they are reflecting more of a "real world" position.
 
I do think though that the level of uncertainty in the world today affects how and what we write. I am sure that each generation is influenced by what is going on around it. Many say that LOTR was in response to Hilter's European transgressions. Yet, it remained hopeful despite one of the darkest periods in history.

Today though the issues of God and faith are clashing within pluralistic societies everywhere. There is less tolerance, more militantism, more violence in the name of faith, and still more non-believers everywhere.

Fantasy is darker, grimmer, more violent, more skeptical, less hopeful. Does it mirror the sentiments of society? Is the new shape of fantasy being read by those who read fantasy in the past, or is it being read by a new generation whose belief structure is non-traditional and less faithful?
 
Gary,


Great questions as usual.

It is usual for media (in all forms) to reflect the times. The cold war analogue sci fi films and books. The Dark Lord WW2 analogues in Fantasy. The movies in the late 90s and early 80s about the rise of Japan. More laterally we are seeing China in the place of the USSR in Clancy style books.

In todays world the enemy is gray, hard to find, disparate terrorists N Korea, Iran smaller "rogue" countries and sometimes your own religiously infused and enthused citizens. Hence Mieville, Bakker (the consult), Martin and to a lessor extent Erikson.

I suspect then in aggregate you are right, current Fantasy is mirroring the present world.
 
Could this darker turn in the genre not just be chalked up to sensationalism of the times? Why does everything have to go back to religion? Things aren't any darker or bleaker than they were 100 years ago, we just have more instant knowledge of global current events thanks to technology.
 
The reason that I raise the question regarding religion is that fantasy is a genre that relies heavily on issues of faith. I don't mean that you need to be religious in the traditional sense, but for fantasy to appeal to you as a reader, your mind must be willing to accept the supernatural, magic, imagination, contemplation of the divine, the infinite, the ultimate etc.
Many people can't read fantasy because they don't understand how to imagine, how to speculate and fantasize about these kinds of issues. I think that the typical fantasy reader is a very spiritual reader, again not necessarily in a traditionally religious sense.

We read fantasy because it satisfies certain needs. We write it for the same reason. I don't believe that most people are aware, nor do they need to be, of all the deep and subconscious reasons why they read what they read. But fantasy readers are looking for a different kind of fulfillment from the books they choose than mystery readers or chic lit readers or readers of classics in many cases.

So why is everything so dark today? Europe during WWII couldn't have been a worse place to be living, and still there was hope. Maybe we just feel less in control of our own fate today. When in the midst of war and suffering, if you feel you are able to fight and to change the world thereby, liberate yourself so to speak, then there is great reason to feel empowered and hopeful. But the nature of warfare today has changed. The powerlessness of the individual is paramount. We fight cold, calculated, remote wars. Death is so random and we seem so helpless to control the future. I don't know that we ever felt that way before. Our literature reflects that feeling.

I have children. I must remain hopeful. They compell me to remain hopeful. So my books too are less dark, less dirty, less nihilistic than many other of my contemporaries. And admittedly, it's not the fashion today.
 
I'm not at all religious (or particularly spiritual), and in the real world I find it very difficult to accept even the slightest supernatural explanation. But I love fantasy - perhaps thats as a reaction to it. I think fiction should be about imagination, and where is that more prevalent than in fantasy? Fiction, after all, isn't real - that's what's interesting about it, that's why I read - not necessarily escapism in the sense of escaping from all the troubles that plague the world, but escapism in the sense of seeing something different from the everyday monotony of life.

The West, at least, is actually a better place than it has ever been before. Living standards for everyone are higher, people are wealthier and problems such as disease and lack of education are now comparatively minimal to what they used to be. But other parts of the world, particularly sub-saharan Africa, have got worse. The West is now in a state to help the developing world and to end poverty - but it chooses not to do so, through selfishness and arrogance. Perhaps this is what the new dark tone of fantasy is reflecting - that while we are in the best state we've ever been in, we jealously deny such luxuries to everyone else and decide, instead, to inflict pain and suffering on others through unjust wars. Since the television, we've seen how terrible war really is, even when it doesn't directly affect us. The huge protests over Vietnam and Iraq reflect this, and this more modern attitude pervades everything. And there is also the sense that government is increasingly becoming authoritarian, that individuals rights and powers are being slowly eroded in the name of security against a fantastical myth. At least in fantasy, we can see what we are defending against. We can see our enemy (note: there doesn't have to be good v evil for this), and whether we succeed or fail, it is a much faster process while reading a novel, than this slow, gradual decline.

Is it to do with the loss of faith? Most of the very religious feel that fantasy is evil from the outset. Naturally, therefore, many who read fantasy are not the most religious. Their may be a loss of faith for authors - they don't feel the need to preach a moral message that authors such as Tolkien and Lewis did.

But again, we're falling into the trap of assuming that there has been a sudden turn towards nihilism in fantasy. There hasn't - it existed in the 1930s, with Clark Ashton Smith's writing. It existed in 1950, with the Dying Earth by Jack Vance. It existed in the 1970s, with Viriconium by M John Harrison. It existed in the 1990s with Michael Swanwick and George RR Martin. Maybe it's become more obvious - fantasy as a genre has become larger, after all, but I think the answer behind it isn't any change in the writers, it's simply a reaction to much of the less realistic fantasy being worse written. Readers were choosing Martin over Jordan (though obviously not the majority) because they thought Martin was a better writer who could write a more intriguing, entertaining story. Questions of faith were irrelevant.
 

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