Has Tolkien lost his crown?

My response to the topic starting question is that it doesn't seem to that Tolkien has lost a crown so much as gained a peerage. New great authors have made their mark on the genre and people are more widely aware of Tolkien's predecessors. Does that diminish Tolkien or add to fantasy? I think the latter is the case. If you are running a sculpture gallery that is blessed to have Michaelangelo's David on display and you add a Burghers of Calais by Rodin, that doesn't take away from David in my mind. same thing if you add a David by Donatello or even Bernini. That's my opinion anyways.
 
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That's an interesting point, actually. Rather than saying that Tolkien's vast influence on the genre is no longer relevant (whilst clearly it is), it is probably much more correct to say that Tolkien's position in the canon has been reassessed and placed more in a context relating to the writers who came before and after, rather than just saying, "Tolkien rulez," by himself. I've definitely noticed an upswing in the mentioning of, say, Howard, Dunsany, Peake and Vance in discussions of early (well, early 20th C) and influential fantasy rather than just citing Tolkien alone.
 
I think Tolkien's influence has been over-exaggerated. He didn't create the fantasy genre, but he definitely gave it a whole lot more popularity and if not for LOTR, the advent of epic fantasy, as opposed to sword and sorcery, would have been delayed a couple of decades. There is no doubt that he's a very important writer, especially to the genre.

I say his role is over-exaggerated because you can't pick up a fantasy novel without some blurb from a New York Times review that says, "In the tradition of Tolkien," or "greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien." Every author gets compared to him and every author is assumed to have been strongly influenced by him. But when I read Michael Moorcock's Elric stories, I saw no Tolkien influence. I saw Howard's influence, but not Tolkien's. I felt the same way after reading Elantris by Brandon Sanderson. It's simply not a Tolkien-esque tale.

I know just about every modern fantasy writer has read LOTR, and everyone has been influenced by him in some small way, but these constant comparisons make it seem like there's no point in reading anything Fantasy after Tolkien. Like it's all one big blur of unoriginality after him.

In short, every fantasy author may have been inspired by Tolkien in some small way. The key word is 'small.' Tolkien is like Elvis. Elvis was there when Rock n' Roll started, but you won't find him listed as an influence on a System of a Down album.
 
In short, every fantasy author may have been inspired by Tolkien in some small way. The key word is 'small.' Tolkien is like Elvis. Elvis was there when Rock n' Roll started, but you won't find him listed as an influence on a System of a Down album.

I think there is some truth in this idea, but mainly I wanted to highlight what is probably the best quote out of this entire thread ;)
 
I think there is some truth in this idea, but mainly I wanted to highlight what is probably the best quote out of this entire thread ;)

don't you mean the most...[relevant] quote out of this entire thread :D
 
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This is a tricky subject, but I think we can all agree that GRR Martin is blatantly ripping off Tolkien.
 
I think Tolkien's influence has been over-exaggerated. He didn't create the fantasy genre, but he definitely gave it a whole lot more popularity and if not for LOTR, the advent of epic fantasy, as opposed to sword and sorcery, would have been delayed a couple of decades. There is no doubt that he's a very important writer, especially to the genre.

I say his role is over-exaggerated because you can't pick up a fantasy novel without some blurb from a New York Times review that says, "In the tradition of Tolkien," or "greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien." Every author gets compared to him and every author is assumed to have been strongly influenced by him. But when I read Michael Moorcock's Elric stories, I saw no Tolkien influence. I saw Howard's influence, but not Tolkien's. I felt the same way after reading Elantris by Brandon Sanderson. It's simply not a Tolkien-esque tale.

I know just about every modern fantasy writer has read LOTR, and everyone has been influenced by him in some small way, but these constant comparisons make it seem like there's no point in reading anything Fantasy after Tolkien. Like it's all one big blur of unoriginality after him.

In short, every fantasy author may have been inspired by Tolkien in some small way. The key word is 'small.' Tolkien is like Elvis. Elvis was there when Rock n' Roll started, but you won't find him listed as an influence on a System of a Down album.

Actually, I was all geared up to get angry at you when I saw your first sentence. But the fact is you're right. Elvis is still the king of Rock, and Tolkien is still the king of Fantasy, but as you said there are plenty of rock stars who don't credit Elvis as their primary influence.

I also rankle at the number of times Tolkien's name is brought up in cover blurbs. Really, there are few writers I would compare directly to him. Just because someone laid the groundwork doesn't mean everybody copies their ideas to the letter.

I don't find Feist or Gemmell to be Tolkienesque at all. And yet what does the quote on the back of my copy of Silverthorn say? "Invites comparisons with The Lord of the Rings." I've read quotes calling Gemmell "The modern Tolkien".

I'm a Tolkien fan, but I'm also a Kenneth Branagh fan, and you don't see me calling each new British actor "the next Kenneth Branagh."
 
I'm currently reading R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before. My favorite thing about it might not be even the story itself but the fact that none of the blurbs mention Tolkien. They compare him to Martin, Erikson, Guy Gavriel Kay, and Clark Asthon Smith.
 
I'm currently reading R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before. My favorite thing about it might not be even the story itself but the fact that none of the blurbs mention Tolkien. They compare him to Martin, Erikson, Guy Gavriel Kay, and Clark Asthon Smith.
Sir Walter Scott would be a pertinent comparison too.
 
I'm currently reading R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before. My favorite thing about it might not be even the story itself but the fact that none of the blurbs mention Tolkien. They compare him to Martin, Erikson, Guy Gavriel Kay, and Clark Asthon Smith.

I thought there was this one for TDTCB: “An epic fantasy that out-Tolkiens Tolkien.” , whatever that's supposed to mean.
 
Well, the cover blurbs are the movies' fault and the media. There weren't as many Tolkien comparisons being done on covers for a long while until the LOTR movies hit and did so well. Those movies brought in a wave of potential new fans who were reading LOTR and looking for others, so it made sense to throw Tolkien's name on just about every secondary world novel in hopes of attracting their attention. It was also a way to sell to booksellers and vendors -- here's something the Tolkien fans will like. (Because, altogether now, fiction is symbiotic.) With the reissue of Tolkien's story recently, that keeps the impetus going, but it will probably fade again in a bit.

And the other problem is that non-genre media is often familiar with Tolkien and not much else in category fantasy, so when they review a secondary world fantasy novel, they look at whether it is Tolkien-like, and then the publisher uses the quote from the reviews because it helps them out. Which again sort of argues against the claim that Tolkien's influence has dropped, in favor of his having become Coca-Cola, or, as has indeed neatly been brought up, Elvis.

And then there's the genre media, who keep the whole thing going in their reviews; the genre media, which are still obsessed with Tolkien and which has set all the standards of judgment of secondary world fantasy -- and really only secondary world fantasy -- around Lord of the Rings. Genre media is fixated when it comes to secondary world fantasy on originality versus derivative, whether it's good and evil versus darkly amoral, whether it is pastorally Tolkien-like or Moorcock-urban, etc. And so Tolkien's name is brought up again and again -- is it Tolkien-like? Yes, and that's good. Yes, and that's bad. No, and that's good. No, and so it's too weird. And publishers take the positive quotes from those reviews too, that have Tolkien's name.

The endless comparisons -- is this one ripping off that one, is this a clone of Tolkien or some other big name, does it have this cliche that we've decided we're tired of, or this cliche that we've decided we like and is cool -- mean that secondary world fantasy is caught in a conversational time loop. Even SF and other types of fantasy, that do some whining about derivativeness, are nowhere near as crazed about this issue as the secondary world community, which seems to feel that the future of everything has to do with the sub-category's relationship to Tolkien, for or against. We're unique, though I'm not sure after listening to this argument for 25 years, that this is necessarily a good thing. It seems to indicate a great deal of insecurity, as if we're constantly arguing about whether such fiction has the right to exist or not.
 
I came back to this subject because Tolkien might be the father of fantasy but a crown I would say would have to go to JK Rowling, she has been on the bestseller list for what almost every week for ten years. I would say if nothing else she deserves a little recognition.
 
I came back to this subject because Tolkien might be the father of fantasy but a crown I would say would have to go to JK Rowling, she has been on the bestseller list for what almost every week for ten years. I would say if nothing else she deserves a little recognition.

I'd say she's been given a lot of recognition. One of the biggest problems, I believe, in converting fantasy series into movies is that the genre is so dominated by series. Most of the time, a trilogy is all film maker's want to deal with considering the problems of budget and aging actors. However, they'll eventually have all seven books turned into films and they'd produce more if she decided to write more. They don't want this cash cow to ever stop producing milk.

I think that does make her Queen of Fantasy now. I think Hollywood should go for Hobb next.
 
I'd say she's been given a lot of recognition. One of the biggest problems, I believe, in converting fantasy series into movies is that the genre is so dominated by series. Most of the time, a trilogy is all film maker's want to deal with considering the problems of budget and aging actors. However, they'll eventually have all seven books turned into films and they'd produce more if she decided to write more. They don't want this cash cow to ever stop producing milk.

I think that does make her Queen of Fantasy now. I think Hollywood should go for Hobb next.

How about a movie with Drizz & his posse? Seriously, they could do an ongoing series with these characters. I'd rather see a series about Drizz & Co instead of Sword of Truth.
 

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