How do readers of self-published novels critique a book?

[Angelo Nero]

The author I spoke to suggested using an agent if i try get it published as a hard copy ( but apparently agents are very hard to come by in Australia as well)

They also suggested I get the manuscript assesses prior to getting it edited. There are several issues when I consider the best way forward, one being that the author I showed my first chapter to is not an sf writer or reader, and although she was positive, saying it was "unique and captivating" she also admitting she had no real experience in the sf style.

I have contemplated skipping the assessment phase she so veermantly suggested (as I am happy with my story line and character arc etc) and going straight to copy editing to cut cost. I have also not ruled out submitting it as an unsolicited manuscript to some Aussie publishers while I go through the process of going down the ebook road.

What are people's experice with getting funding for publishing projects on forums like kickstarter? Is that a viable option to raise funds for editing etc?

Thanks for your input, any advice is gold to a novice like me.

 

[TrackerNeil]

What are people's experice with getting funding for publishing projects on forums like kickstarter? Is that a viable option to raise funds for editing etc?

My co-author and I, after long deliberation, decided to give Kickstarter a pass, and here's why. First, we possessed most of the skills we needed for production, so we kept out costs relatively low. Second, we were afraid that if we had a Kickstarter failure it would look worse than no Kickstarter presence at all. Third, we kept control of our schedule, which came in handy when we were six weeks late with our second novel!

That being said, I think that it's entirely possible you could gain some exposure with a successful Kickstarter campaign. People do, after all.

Since you're asking for advice, may I suggest peer editors? That's a fancy word for the people in your life who are either analytical readers or experienced in publishing/literature, who read your manuscript and provide feedback. (Naturally, these have to be people whom you trust to be honest and unflinching in their criticism, so you probably want to avoid a spouse or other relative.) My co-author and I used them for both our books, and their participation was invaluable. I wouldn't consider publishing without them.

 

[Angelo Nero]

Yes, that's precisely what I've already done. My wife, which works for the government and regularly vets documents as well as creating them (along with having her on blog) finished editing the final draft of my book a couple of weeks ago. She was able to pick up a number of inconsistencies in the story along with a great deal of spelling and grammatical errors which I fixed along the way.

She is not a sf fan either, however my novel is a mixture between a mystery/crime novel and fantasy so she enjoyed it none the less.

Last night I was toying with the idea of simply submitting it for a final proofreading edit after I put it in proper manuscript format (which will still cost $1200) just to make sure it the final mistakes she may have missed get picked up.

I also have a lawyer friend who is a sci fi fan I could give it to.

Again, thanks for the advice.

 

[RichardWolanski]

KatG and Lucas Thorn make excellent points.


What's great about self-published books is that many of the writers are writing books that don't fit in readily apparent boxes. I had a similar experience as Lucas, when I was shopping manuscripts for a dark fantasy series involving insects. The agent told me that the story was well-written and it had a lot of strong relevant themes, but it didn't have any people in it and for that reason he had to pass (excellent agent by the way!). I was happy that I didn't get the default form letter. Now multiply that times the probably 200+ query letters I'd sent over the years and it's likely that my story would have never seen the light of day. Now, I'll tell you right now. I'm not one of those self-published writers who "hates" trad. publishers. The world is big enough for the both of us. I also am well aware that both mediums have great and not-so-great books being released every year.

Honestly, when I read, it's about the story first. I often like books where there are larger observations being made than what's on the page. That's why I love Richard Adams, Angela Carter, Rod Serling and Orwell. So, if I see a minor amount of typos grammatical errors etc. I'm more or less forgiving. Many of the writers who started self-published and then landed trad. contracts didn't have the most pristine manuscripts or covers. A lot of it is understanding how Amazon algorithms work, building an audience through direct marketing and luck.

 

[Angelo Nero]

Well I hope that's what my book does. I have a background in criminology and psychology and my story is as much about the heights and depths of the human condition as it is about angels.

You have all given me a great deal to consider. At this stage this is my plan in a broad stroke:

Commission cover art (something I am currently doing. He is a local artist, check out his previous work on
http://deerandfox.tumblr.com/ )

Configure my novel in manuscript format

Start a kickstarter campaign to get partial funding for a copy edit of my book (think I'll ask for about $1000AUD which will cover half the costs)

If I get the funding i will get a copy edit done then self publish, if I don't get funding i will get another peer edit and self publish after that.

In amongst this I'll also submit my manuscript to a local trad publisher who is calling for unsolicited work from Aussie authors.

Thanks for all of your advice an asistance. Once I get my kickstarter page going I'll be sure to let you know so you can have a look.

Thanks again.

 

[Siberian]

That of course assumes that what makes it to traditional publishing is the cream of the crop, and not the cream of the crap. I think that is an unwarranted assumption, and as evidence I call to your attention the Twilight series of shitty books,

Have you actually read the books? The first one was pretty decent for what it was trying to do (i.e. paranormal romance). And, despite what they're saying now, it wasn't only read by women. I did have big issues with the sequels but it seems that most of the backlash was started by the crappy movies (particularly the wooden leads).

 

[TrackerNeil]

Have you actually read the books? The first one was pretty decent for what it was trying to do (i.e. paranormal romance).

I confess that I was not able to make it entirely through the first book. I couldn't take it any more.

Let me just clarify that I don't think that those who like Twilight are wrong to do so. I think there is a difference between a piece of media that is fun and one that is good. For example, I think the movie "Dog Soldiers" is a fun flick and a delightful way to pass an afternoon, but I wouldn't call it high-quality cinema. Although I think in terms of literature Twilight is junk that doesn't mean no one should enjoy it. When I referred to that book upthread, I was responding to the suggestion that tradpub books are the cream of the crop, which I don't think is the case.

There are good tradpub books and dreadful ones, and some of those dreadful books are nonetheless fun to read. Twilight may be such a book, for you, and if so then keep on with the series! However, the suggestion that a book published by Little Brown or Harper Voyager or whoever has necessarily "risen to the top" in terms literary value is, IMO, just wrong.

 

[KatG]

Again, an "assessment" is something that a publisher or agent does, where they assess whether they are interested in the book. What you are talking about is developmental editing, editing focused on helping to develop the book, which can be useful and does not necessarily involve overhauling the plot. But again, cost is an issue.

What I've been told by Australian authors is that because of various laws and regulations that standardize Australian publishing contracts, agents aren't as used as much in Australia, and are used more for foreign rights sales overseas -- which you can attempt to do even if you self-publish. But you'll be better able to assess what you need there by guidelines of agents and publishers. If you self-publish the book at the same time you market it to publishers then publishers will be making any deal with you as a reprint deal instead of an original license deal and there are different factors on those two types of deals. You might want to try to talk to some authors in Australia who have self-published, and in particular those who have self-published and then done a reprint deal with a publisher.

 

[Angelo Nero]

The trad author i have spoken to suggested that I get the manuscript assessed before I submit it to an agent or publisher. Writers Victoria in Australia provide that service for a fee. The service is said to involve;

"What is a Manuscript Assessment?

A Manuscript Assessment (sometimes known as ‘structural’ or ‘substantive’ edit) looks at the overall structure, content and style of your manuscript.

This may include things like plot, character, point-of-view, pace, writing style, narrative, dialogue, presentation, length, use of research, readership, marketing or publishing possibilities. Manuscript Assessments differ from copy editing or proof-reading. These tend to look in detail at the accuracy of things like spelling, grammar and punctuation while a Manuscript Assessment will give you professional advice on the big picture."

I doubt very much I am going to take this step. As I said, I think I'll go straight to copy editing if I can raise the funds.

I know my book will not appeal to a greater audience like twilight or similar. It's not a love story in the traditional sense and instead is very gritty and dark. I am pretty sure that if I get it assessed I will be told that it needs to be tailored to a wider audience and perhaps be toned down. But this is the way I wanted to write it, I wanted it to be dark, I wanted it to be different from a lot of the pop stories outthere at the moment.

 

[TrackerNeil]

I know my book will not appeal to a greater audience like twilight or similar. It's not a love story in the traditional sense and instead is very gritty and dark. I am pretty sure that if I get it assessed I will be told that it needs to be tailored to a wider audience and perhaps be toned down. But this is the way I wanted to write it, I wanted it to be dark, I wanted it to be different from a lot of the pop stories outthere at the moment.

Ultimately, you have to go with your gut. It may not sell well - who knows? - but if you produce good work, that's all you really control. My erstwhile agent was fond of saying that nobody in the business knows what will sell; if they did, every novel would be a bestseller. I think she was right.

 

[KatG]

"What is a Manuscript Assessment?

A Manuscript Assessment (sometimes known as ‘structural’ or ‘substantive’ edit) looks at the overall structure, content and style of your manuscript.

This may include things like plot, character, point-of-view, pace, writing style, narrative, dialogue, presentation, length, use of research, readership, marketing or publishing possibilities. Manuscript Assessments differ from copy editing or proof-reading. These tend to look in detail at the accuracy of things like spelling, grammar and punctuation while a Manuscript Assessment will give you professional advice on the big picture."

Okay, so Australians call developmental editing "manuscript assessment;" good to know. I just wanted to make sure someone wasn't trying to sell you a service where they just tell you if it will sell or not, rather than actual editing.

But this is the way I wanted to write it, I wanted it to be dark, I wanted it to be different from a lot of the pop stories outthere at the moment.

Well, that's good. Because dark fiction is the most popular form of fiction in the fiction market and very popular in SFFH (indeed, all of horror is dark). Seriously, it really is. So perhaps you can find an audience for your work.

My erstwhile agent was fond of saying that nobody in the business knows what will sell; if they did, every novel would be a bestseller. I think she was right.

Wait, wait, you told us publishers know what is crap and that it sells and so publish crap, and that non-crap doesn't sell and you know what non-crap is. Now you say no one knows? I'm so confused!!!! (Sorry, I couldn't resist. But now you know why I'm not having you be my arbriter of crap, you see.)

 

[TrackerNeil]

Sorry...bad post.

 

[Yzabel]

Have you actually read the books? The first one was pretty decent for what it was trying to do (i.e. paranormal romance). And, despite what they're saying now, it wasn't only read by women. I did have big issues with the sequels but it seems that most of the backlash was started by the crappy movies (particularly the wooden leads).

I read the first one, and I wouldn't call it decent. I was seriously freaked out when a pupil of mine (14) told me that it was "soooo romantic when Edward gets into Bella's room to watch her sleep". Uh. NO. No, that's not romantic: that's creepy and bordering on stalker-behaviour. The book smacks of serious issues of "abuse is OK as long as the guy's hot" (Edward sabotaging Bella's truck so that she can't go and see a friend... among other things). And we even get cheated of the end fight because stupid Bella gets knocked out and can't tell us about it from the front seat. Nope. "Paranormal romance" shouldn't be an excuse for depicting girls who stand being treated like crap (not necessarily the physical way) under the pretense of "romance, but it's all right: the guy's sexy!" It wasn't even a fun read for me. The only fun I had with it was when I found a blog whose owner recapped each chapter with funny drawings and comments.

If this is what we have to write to be successful authors, I guess I'm just going to go weep in a corner.

 

[Angelo Nero]

Okay, so Australians call developmental editing "manuscript assessment;" good to know. I just wanted to make sure someone wasn't trying to sell you a service where they just tell you if it will sell or not, rather than actual editing.

Thanks, still think I'll go with the copy edit rathr than assessment if I can raise he funds.

Well, that's good. Because dark fiction is the most popular form of fiction in the fiction market and very popular in SFFH (indeed, all of horror is dark). Seriously, it really is. So perhaps you can find an audience for your work.

I hope I do find an audience but would rather just have a small following than produce something like twilight. I've never read the books or watched the movies on principle and based on what Yzabel described I made the right choice.

The darkness in my story is more about the real horrors the humankind inflicts onto its own kind. Placed in the context of a science fiction story the trad author that read it described it as a dystopia, I didn't have the heart to tell her that the evil portrayed in the first chapter is based 100% on real life events.

 

[TrackerNeil]

I read the first one, and I wouldn't call it decent. I was seriously freaked out when a pupil of mine (14) told me that it was "soooo romantic when Edward gets into Bella's room to watch her sleep". Uh. NO. No, that's not romantic: that's creepy and bordering on stalker-behaviour. The book smacks of serious issues of "abuse is OK as long as the guy's hot" (Edward sabotaging Bella's truck so that she can't go and see a friend... among other things). And we even get cheated of the end fight because stupid Bella gets knocked out and can't tell us about it from the front seat. Nope. "Paranormal romance" shouldn't be an excuse for depicting girls who stand being treated like crap (not necessarily the physical way) under the pretense of "romance, but it's all right: the guy's sexy!" It wasn't even a fun read for me. The only fun I had with it was when I found a blog whose owner recapped each chapter with funny drawings and comments.

If this is what we have to write to be successful authors, I guess I'm just going to go weep in a corner.

Yes, yes, yes! When I read that I was like, "Hmmm...yes, do let's teach young girls that obsessive and intrusive interest from a man sixty times their age is a thing to be coveted. Criminy.

I don't think, that stalker fiction is the only path to success. Just as there is nonsense, so is there quality. It's no different than the movie business, in my view. Hollywood has produced some truly dreadful films, and yet there are some that are both quality and commercially successful. ("Alien", I am looking in your direction.)

 

[KatG]

I would suggest to the folk here trying to write that you really need to read more widely in the field and know more about the field's bestsellers and category bestsellers, both in the adult market and in YA if you are writing YA, rather than freak out that Twilight was a successful book series and therefore that's all there is. What Hollywood is doing also is not a good indicator of what is actually happening in the fantasy and horror fields, or SF for that matter. The fields are very different and the fantasy fiction field is very broad. Even the YA fantasy fiction field is broad. Whether you are self-publishing or partner publishing, the more you know about the books that are out there, the better you will understand how your fiction fits in it -- and yes, it will fit perfectly fine in it -- and how to talk about it in the field. Just two cents of advice, take or leave as you find it.

 

[Siberian]

I read the first one, and I wouldn't call it decent. I was seriously freaked out when a pupil of mine (14) told me that it was "soooo romantic when Edward gets into Bella's room to watch her sleep". Uh. NO. No, that's not romantic: that's creepy and bordering on stalker-behaviour. The book smacks of serious issues of "abuse is OK as long as the guy's hot" (Edward sabotaging Bella's truck so that she can't go and see a friend... among other things). And we even get cheated of the end fight because stupid Bella gets knocked out and can't tell us about it from the front seat. Nope. "Paranormal romance" shouldn't be an excuse for depicting girls who stand being treated like crap (not necessarily the physical way) under the pretense of "romance, but it's all right: the guy's sexy!" It wasn't even a fun read for me. The only fun I had with it was when I found a blog whose owner recapped each chapter with funny drawings and comments.

If this is what we have to write to be successful authors, I guess I'm just going to go weep in a corner.

I guess I'm just used to the age difference and stalky behavior as genre conventions so I wasn't bothered much by it (the sequels is a different story). Believe it or not, but picked up the books on the recommendation of a guy (yes, that's right) who said it was like a comic story from the superhero's girlfriend POV. From that perspective, it was a fairly interesting read. I also didn't find it much crappier than, say HP, which I thought was too bloated towards the end.

Honestly, I can accept Twilight as a sort of a feminine fantasy. I'm much more bothered by supposedly strong females in books by authors like Jordan or Peter Brett who turn out to be anything but. At least with Twilight you know what you're getting into. But even with acclaimed authors these days, female characters are hit or miss.

 

[TrackerNeil]

Honestly, I can accept Twilight as a sort of a feminine fantasy. I'm much more bothered by supposedly strong females in books by authors like Jordan or Peter Brett who turn out to be anything but.

Agreed. I think that, for some authors, a "strong female character" is one who can swing a sword. To me, a strong female character is one who has her own agenda and ambition, and does not serve as a motivation for a male character.

 

[Yzabel]

I guess I'm just used to the age difference and stalky behavior as genre conventions so I wasn't bothered much by it (the sequels is a different story). Believe it or not, but picked up the books on the recommendation of a guy (yes, that's right) who said it was like a comic story from the superhero's girlfriend POV. From that perspective, it was a fairly interesting read. I also didn't find it much crappier than, say HP, which I thought was too bloated towards the end.

Hm, it can be an intriguing POV, indeed. Although I doubt the author intended it, or that most readers would agree to see it that way.

Honestly, I can accept Twilight as a sort of a feminine fantasy. I'm much more bothered by supposedly strong females in books by authors like Jordan or Peter Brett who turn out to be anything but. At least with Twilight you know what you're getting into. But even with acclaimed authors these days, female characters are hit or miss.

Oh, I agree with the "strong female" bit—so many authors (and readers) think that just putting a gun between a girl's hands, or making her a martial artist or something, is enough to create a "strong" character. They forget to consider the human aspects, because in the end, this is what we are, regardless of genres: human beings, with human qualities and defects. Being a coward, a liar, a manipulative bastard, a brilliant artist, a fighter, whatever, isn't limited to either male or female. Both can be those. To me, characters have to stand by and for themselves, rather than for someone else or for the sake of a plot only; once this is done, then we can start talking "strong man/woman".

What bothers me is the "feminine fantasy" part in those stories. It really makes me wonder if I'm an alien among my own kind. When I read such stories, as a woman, I don't feel satisfied, I don't feel that my fantasies have been fulfilled. I only feel sullied and debased, portrayed as some cheap idiot who will accept any crap because "it's True Loooooove!"

I would suggest to the folk here trying to write that you really need to read more widely in the field and know more about the field's bestsellers and category bestsellers, both in the adult market and in YA if you are writing YA, rather than freak out that Twilight was a successful book series and therefore that's all there is. What Hollywood is doing also is not a good indicator of what is actually happening in the fantasy and horror fields, or SF for that matter. The fields are very different and the fantasy fiction field is very broad. Even the YA fantasy fiction field is broad. Whether you are self-publishing or partner publishing, the more you know about the books that are out there, the better you will understand how your fiction fits in it -- and yes, it will fit perfectly fine in it -- and how to talk about it in the field. Just two cents of advice, take or leave as you find it.

I think I read a lot YA fiction—well, 50-60 books/year would qualify as "a lot", or at least as a decent amount for a single reader, right? Maybe I'm unlucky and haven't picked the right books, but among those, I find a good 75% is the same kind of cookie-cutter crappy formula when it comes to themes like "love" and "relationships". The rancid love triangles. The "girl always ends up picking the Bad Boy" cliché. The "it's OK if he's jealous and abusive, because he's sexy" argument. The double-standards. On a regular basis, slut-shaming. True Love that, once looked at more closely, is actually "true love makes you a doormat". By all means, I want to read a good YA story! So if anyone can PM-suggest something, I'm all ears (all right, eyes).

(I'm only talking YA here. I seem to have more luck with adult books, in terms of finding more varied picks.)

 

[Marlowe]

They forget to consider the human aspects, because in the end, this is what we are, regardless of genres: human beings, with human qualities and defects. Being a coward, a liar, a manipulative bastard, a brilliant artist, a fighter, whatever, isn't limited to either male or female. Both can be those. To me, characters have to stand by and for themselves, rather than for someone else or for the sake of a plot only;

THIS!

I have to confess to a disliking of the term 'strong female character'. I understand the meaning people are trying to convey, but why does no one ever talk about 'strong male characters'? I hope I don't come across as a feminazi, but drawing attention to strong female characters, without using the same description for the males is very separatist to me, and reeks of a double standard. It implies that the 'strong male viewpoint' is the default and doesn't need to be mentioned, because it goes without saying that the men will be powerfully written protagonists, even though this isn't always the case.

Why can't we just have well-formed characters, regardless of their sex?