How do readers of self-published novels critique a book?

THIS!

I have to confess to a disliking of the term 'strong female character'. I understand the meaning people are trying to convey, but why does no one ever talk about 'strong male characters'? I hope I don't come across as a feminazi, but drawing attention to strong female characters, without using the same description for the males is very separatist to me, and reeks of a double standard. It implies that the 'strong male viewpoint' is the default and doesn't need to be mentioned, because it goes without saying that the men will be powerfully written protagonists, even though this isn't always the case.

Why can't we just have well-formed characters, regardless of their sex?

YES YES YES. It's not "feminazi" to want the same quality of female characters as male. And you're right; it's just assumed that the view of straight white guys is the standard according to which all fantasy fiction must operate. My view is that most of the goddamned planet is NOT straight, white and male, so why are most of the characters? When I saw the second "Hobbit" movie I nearly jumped out of my seat with joy when I noticed that some of the people in Lake Town were black.
 
I think ultimately, KatG is right.


It's about reading across genres, understanding the market to a certain extent, and in my opinion luck. But instead of focusing on the the "crap" why don't you try to make what you want to write or see on the bookshelves. There's tons of books I look at and think, "Really?" But, I move on and keep typing away at what I love and what I'd would love to share with readers.

As far as my views on critiquing a self-published book, I don't expect perfection but I do expect a valiant effort. I can ignore typos if there's a good story being told or characters I'm desperate to see make it to the end.
 
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Little bit of subject drift here, folks. If you want, you can set up another thread on the topic of the female characters or YA and I'll throw in some book suggestions. Rob can probably dig up some older threads on that, too.



I have not read widely of the current crop of self-published SFFH. (There are a good million of them.) It tends to be when they come on my radar somewhere, such as here in the forums or on the Net and I hear good things from other people (word of mouth) or I'm just intrigued. I found our good Mr. Lucas Thorn's books through his cover art, and then the premise sounded really interesting, so I got it. And I just got the second one in the Nysta series in my it's the holidays, I get books pile. I quite liked the first one. It is a dark satire secondary world pre-industrial horror western revenge adventure story. I can't, for the life of me, understand why an Australian publisher did not grab it. Being an editor always, there were probably parts where I'd go, I'd have suggested fixing that. But then I do that with partner published books too. (You probably don't want to go to a thriller movie with me either, these days.)

So far, I've had a good track record on the self-published fiction in my small sample size -- Mike Sullivan (who is evil and sneaky and writes wonderful dialogue,) and Hugh Howey (who I feel fundamentally misunderstands many facets of book publishing, but writes like the wind,) -- both of whom also went into partner publishing, and Tim Marquitz, whose work that I read (the wonderful Demon Squad,) technically was not the self-published series, but he has also self-published a lot of stuff. Ditto Chuck Wendig, whose partner published Miriam Black series I am now firmly into and the self-published stuff I may get to. And I'm very open to learning about other people out there.

But self-published or partner-published, I'm only going to get to a fraction of them. So I'm picking stuff that either interests me or that maybe isn't entirely my thing but might be worth it to check out. And some of them don't work for me, or are okay. I don't have too much in the way of a style preference. I will read a book that is snarky, dark and full of action, or broody, overly dramatic and full of bleak social commentary, or monster horror, or something like Genevieve Valentine's Mechanique, which was wonderful -- I would like her to write another novel, please -- or romantic or....

So if you don't like novels full of action and snarky dialog, wait for word of one that doesn't have that. If you don't like romances, don't read them, but surely that other people might like a love story is not that odd a concept. There are approximately 20,000 fantasy and horror books published a year, maybe more than that. If you can't find something you like, then you need to go hunting. Because it's statistically unlikely that the kind of stuff you like is not out there, even if you are pickier than me on your preferences. And by sheer statistical possibilities, that includes self-published works.
 
THIS!

I have to confess to a disliking of the term 'strong female character'. I understand the meaning people are trying to convey, but why does no one ever talk about 'strong male characters'? I hope I don't come across as a feminazi, but drawing attention to strong female characters, without using the same description for the males is very separatist to me, and reeks of a double standard. It implies that the 'strong male viewpoint' is the default and doesn't need to be mentioned, because it goes without saying that the men will be powerfully written protagonists, even though this isn't always the case.

Why can't we just have well-formed characters, regardless of their sex?

I don't think it's a "feminazi" reaction. I've also reacted the same way and will certainly go on doing so. I think it's one of those things that stemmed from a good intention at some point, but then fell into the pitfall of wanting to do too much good, too fast, ending up in one huge misunderstanding.
But I agree with KatG—litle bit of a drift here. If there's an existing thread, I'll happily jump in it. Or post one if no one else does before.

But instead of focusing on the the "crap" why don't you try to make what you want to write or see on the bookshelves. There's tons of books I look at and think, "Really?" But, I move on and keep typing away at what I love and what I'd would love to share with readers.

In a much paradoxical way, though, reading crap actually helps me: it allows me to see, there, in print, what I shouldn't be writing. As painful as it is to wade through bad stories, at least in the end I realise that "OK, so this and that clearly didn't work; that reaction on the character's part looked artificial; those sentences were weak; there was a huge plothole in chapter 14 that ne", and so on. The only problem being that 1) it makes me waste some time, and 2) of course you have to combine this with reading good novels, otherwise you can't compare. Example: in one of my recent reads, I found "his green orbs" instead of "his green eyes". Instant laughter, and instant reminder to never use that in my own works, unless I want to write a comical sex scene, that is.

So if you don't like novels full of action and snarky dialog, wait for word of one that doesn't have that. If you don't like romances, don't read them, but surely that other people might like a love story is not that odd a concept. There are approximately 20,000 fantasy and horror books published a year, maybe more than that. If you can't find something you like, then you need to go hunting. Because it's statistically unlikely that the kind of stuff you like is not out there, even if you are pickier than me on your preferences. And by sheer statistical possibilities, that includes self-published works.

I guess part of the problem for me is also "misleading blurbs". I've picked a fair share of books (indie or trad) whose blurb looked like I would like the story, from authors I didn't know before so I couldn't even rely on that to help me, and found myself with something totally different, not in a good way. Sure, there are reviews, but you can't check them all if there's a lot of them, and even reviews can be misleading, depending on who writes them. For instance, let's say there's a fantasy book whose blurb didn't hint at much romance, yet contains a whole subplot full of it. Someone who loves romance plots may post "there was romance in it, and it was adorable"... but then, when I get to the romance part, it depicts a type of romance that I don't find interesting, all the more in a story where I expected there wouldn't be any or much. (I hope I'm making sense here.)
There's also the matter of wanting to read more in a genre you usually don't pay attention to, to give it a chance, to learn more about it. I'll think, "maybe I just haven't found the kind of romance stories I'd like, so let's try something else". If I have to give up on a genre, I'd rather it was because it really don't suit my tastes in general, not because of the few rotten eggs I picked. Besides, I don't like "giving up".

But all in all, I agree that there must be something for everyone out there. I just wish I'd find my picks more quickly (although I think I'm getting there, now that I'm discovering more and more authors).
 
When I think of times I've purchased self-published books, only a few come to mind. Two were friends of mine.

Shawn Speakman, webmaster of the Terry Brooks Forum, who self-published his novel The Dark Thorn and the anthology Unfettered. Shawn has been in publishing for awhile so he had better resources for doing so than most. Unfettered is now being published in the UK by Orbit, so he is one of those who seems to have transitioned self-publishing into being picked up by a big name publisher.

The other was Chris Dickerson, a playwright based out of Baltimore. Chris had some success back in the 80s with a play he wrote called To Bury Caesar, about the assassination of Lincoln. Sadly, that may have been his peak. He was a good writer who just didn't know how to market himself, and came to prefer the bohemian lifestyle to mainstream success. He taught a Celtic Literature seminar that I took in L.A. and I really enjoyed his class, which is why I bought his books. Sadly, he passed away last year of cancer.

The third and final book I can remember was a Spanish language book. I bought it just to keep up on my Spanish, and it had an interesting plot and low price. There is not much Spanish-language "fantasy" as we conceptualize it in the English-speaking world, except for books in translation. The book was surprisingly good, a tongue-in-cheek vampire tale that spoofed the likes of Twilight. I was pleasantly surprised.

Other than that, I probably stay away from self-published books for the same reasons other people do. That might be unfair, but without a personal connection or word-of-mouth there is no system through which to judge it. I do the same with books from mainstream publishers, to be honest, it's just that those books tend to get more reviews so there is more on which to base an opinion.

eBooks have certainly made it easier for people to self-publish, which might be both a blessing and a curse. It provides an alternative method for people like Michael J. Sullivan and Shawn Speakman to make their mark and get noticed. But that was also possible without eBooks, as Christopher Paolini's limited edition print of Eragon ended up in the hands of Carl Hiaasen's stepson, who showed it to Knopf. And now eBooks have also created a saturation that might lead an uninformed reader to the likes of Robert Stanek and turn them off to self-published books forever.
 
Yzabel said:
I guess part of the problem for me is also "misleading blurbs". I've picked a fair share of books (indie or trad) whose blurb looked like I would like the story, from authors I didn't know before so I couldn't even rely on that to help me, and found myself with something totally different, not in a good way. Sure, there are reviews, but you can't check them all if there's a lot of them, and even reviews can be misleading, depending on who writes them. For instance, let's say there's a fantasy book whose blurb didn't hint at much romance, yet contains a whole subplot full of it. Someone who loves romance plots may post "there was romance in it, and it was adorable"... but then, when I get to the romance part, it depicts a type of romance that I don't find interesting, all the more in a story where I expected there wouldn't be any or much. (I hope I'm making sense here.)

There's also the matter of wanting to read more in a genre you usually don't pay attention to, to give it a chance, to learn more about it. I'll think, "maybe I just haven't found the kind of romance stories I'd like, so let's try something else". If I have to give up on a genre, I'd rather it was because it really don't suit my tastes in general, not because of the few rotten eggs I picked. Besides, I don't like "giving up".

But all in all, I agree that there must be something for everyone out there. I just wish I'd find my picks more quickly (although I think I'm getting there, now that I'm discovering more and more authors).

They aren't misleading you; they just aren't giving you information that you want. A romance sub-plot, for instance, is quite standard in stories. It would not occur to most reviewers to mention it in much detail unless it was directly tied into the main plot, or necessarily for it to be the main focus of cover copy, given that it's a sub-plot. Basically, the more specific preferences you have, the more research you have to do. That research is fairly simple in this day and age. You go to a forum, like this one, and ask -- anybody read this? How much sex does it have? Etc. We've had some mind-boggling specific rec requests here, but usually somebody can come up with something. And this particular site isn't as good for things like historical and contemporary fantasy. But you can go to sites that are, multi author blog sites, etc., Goodreads which does cover just about everything, and ask. It isn't foolproof, and there's no telling if you will like the characters, but if you like the sound of the plot and so far as you've asked and looked up, no red flags for your preferences show up, it might be worth trying it. Libraries are your friend (and still pay authors.) We should enjoy them before they are gone.

A few years back, did you know that Amazon thought about charging folk for if they wanted to read a sample, their look in the book program? (On top of the money they already charged publishers for running that feature.) That idea was clearly scotched. So take advantage of the free samples everywhere. Google went to court to preserve its right to ignore copyright and database near complete ms. of books they don't own. So you can read, well, a lot of pages of books in Google. You can even run a search for red flag words that might be in the book. And Baen Books puts up lots of their older stuff for free and samples. Nearly every publisher site does this too. So if you like the first few pages, you have about a fifty percent more chance of liking the rest. And to encourage their self-publishing dominance, Amazon lets author publishers do the look in feature for free or near free, so you can do that with a lot of them too, even if they don't have many reviews. Authors' own websites often have samples, etc. And the books that authors you like say they like -- not always a lock, but it's not a bad system if you only like particular styles or types of stories.

We have never had more information so freely and easily offered to us about fiction offerings than we have now. Books are sold on word of mouth -- we've never had so much word of mouth than we have now. And I don't mean just from strangers -- your friends talk to you way more and more often in the Internet age than friends did in the past. The Internet is the melding of a phone network, a postal system, a television and a library.

The old fans, the ones who didn't have no Internet or even copy machines for awhile -- they just read whatever they could get their hands on. Of course, it was cheaper back then, widely distributed in drugstores and book shops, and a substantial part of their day every day was not devoted to the Internet. But there is something to be said for being a "Pac-man" of books. :) But because there are a lot of offerings, people have to make choices -- but we do have the tools to make fairly well informed ones, even for self-publishing books. They are riskier because they are many, but there are vehicles in place -- at Amazon particularly -- to sort out some and the small press offerings as well.

As for reading SFF romance and/or romance when you hate it, because you want to see if you can find something, well, that's fine. Just don't make sweeping statements about the romance genre, that's all I ask. Do you have a thread up where you are asking on specifics for SFF romance? (I promise to swat the people who come in complaining, "Why are we talking about romance? Twilight was awful! I saw the movie on t.v.!")

A lot of self-publishing fiction is romance but that's because the romance category market was online and selling e-books as a regular trade market long before anybody else. When e-books were 1% of the retail market, about seventy percent of that was romance fiction. So with the expansion, there was already an established network and audience reading that genre online and that market has been able to support a lot more titles, many of which are paranormal romance. The romance category market has its sub-categories based on the type of romance including sexual content, so they are very easy to sort on that front. Horror fiction is sorted by type of horror. Fantasy fiction is sorted by type of setting. Science fiction is sorted by type of science content. Westerns are sorted by type of plot. Suspense is sorted by type of suspense, and so on. So you can make the first cut by sub-category and go from there.
 
This is at least somewhat related to the topic. It seems that even Ursula LeGuin, sci-fi/fantasy icon, is not safe from pressure to sell.

Nothing against Rowling, but I am glad LeGuin stood her ground.
 
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This is at least somewhat related to the topic. It seems that even Ursula LeGuin, sci-fi/fantasy icon, is not safe from pressure to sell.

Nothing against Rowling, but I am glad LeGuin stood her ground.

Sometimes I fear for traditional publishing and hope that self-pubs will save the industry. To elaborate, I see publishing going the same way as Hollywood, i.e. endless sequels and churning out what is essentially the same movie with a new title and/or cast. The corporates are extremely risk-averse and the whole industry suffers and stagnates because of it. This is where I hope the self-pubs can save the day, as these authors aren't afraid to go in new directions without worrying about which category Marketing will slot them into. And, if they manage to build a following, the contracts will (hopefully) follow, assuming that's what the author wants.
 
Why can't LeGuin be like LeGuin?

Let Rowling be Rowling. Let authors be authors. It's common sense. I don't understand why every author has to use the same formula. I love both LeGuin and Rowling for that matter. I can't fathom that a writer of her stature should be feeling any sort of pressure. She's already proven herself a million times over.
 
Why can't LeGuin be like LeGuin?

Let Rowling be Rowling. Let authors be authors. It's common sense. I don't understand why every author has to use the same formula. I love both LeGuin and Rowling for that matter. I can't fathom that a writer of her stature should be feeling any sort of pressure. She's already proven herself a million times over.


I know nothing about being a successful writer (yet:)) but I know the pressures of wanting to be popular. When I was writing this, my first ever book, and even still while editing it, I question my choices.

I chose to do a sci fi novel, limiting my audience
I chose to do a dark novel with little romance, limiting its appeal once again
And finally decided to make my lead female character an australian, again limiting my potential readership to such a small portion of the market

I question these choices regularly but would never change them. this is the book I wanted I write. I may have to self publish and hope (as discussed in this thread) that I join the tide of change washing away the tired and repetitive story lines we have all grown weary of.
 
I know nothing about being a successful writer (yet:)) but I know the pressures of wanting to be popular. When I was writing this, my first ever book, and even still while editing it, I question my choices.

I chose to do a sci fi novel, limiting my audience
I chose to do a dark novel with little romance, limiting its appeal once again
And finally decided to make my lead female character an australian, again limiting my potential readership to such a small portion of the market

I question these choices regularly but would never change them. this is the book I wanted I write. I may have to self publish and hope (as discussed in this thread) that I join the tide of change washing away the tired and repetitive story lines we have all grown weary of.

I'll tell you as a fellow (yet) to be successful author,

That romance bit you have will triple your exposure. Romance is easily the the highest selling genre. Almost no question about that. And authors, especially foreign, are sort of a trend right now. So you never know, Nero. Sci-fi has always had a limited appeal unfortunately. However, it seems if you hit a nerve that readers have been itching to get scratched your success shoots out and up into the stratosphere. I hope to see you up there.

The novel I'm currently writing now, and one I've already submitted, both have a romance element. Not to shill, it's simply apart of the story. I'm a sucker for well told love stories/romances. Not necessarily as a genre (i.e. erotica, romance novels) but in the sense that I love interesting observations about love and relationships in fantasy and sci-fi.
 
The thing is my book can hardly be called a romance, that portion of it making up less than 1% of the story. If it were a romance I think it might be more popular in the end. I steered away from that topic consciously as I didn't want to fit in the mould. Not to say there is no merit in a romance/ fantasy, I just wanted to be different and being different doesn't usually pay.
 
Sometimes I fear for traditional publishing and hope that self-pubs will save the industry. To elaborate, I see publishing going the same way as Hollywood, i.e. endless sequels and churning out what is essentially the same movie with a new title and/or cast. The corporates are extremely risk-averse and the whole industry suffers and stagnates because of it. This is where I hope the self-pubs can save the day, as these authors aren't afraid to go in new directions without worrying about which category Marketing will slot them into. And, if they manage to build a following, the contracts will (hopefully) follow, assuming that's what the author wants.

Fiction publishing is nothing like Hollywood and self-pubs don't need to "save" anything -- they are just another sector of the market. And your fears are the exact same fears that they whine about in the 1980's when the bestseller lists had much less turnover and fewer authors tended to dominate the top spots because of the power of the wholesale market. (And in the 1960's, when they proclaimed the death of literature, and the oughts and the 1930's, and pick a decade.) It's the mythical imaginary fear where we pretend there are not giant "literary" bestsellers that stay on the list for over a year and then sell for decades to universities and high schools, and that every book that does well on the list is somehow there because of a commercial "formula," ignoring the thousands of other books that have "formulas" (otherwise known as mystery stories, romance stories, epic war stories, family dramas, etc.) that do not do well or certainly don't make the lists. Where we pretend that larger publishers are "the Man," enforcing sterile conformity and rejecting anything "unconventional," while citing for praise daring, original authors -- who are published by the larger publishers, and usually are bestsellers. I'm sorry, but the fairy tale world of the soulless commercial machine and the serious artist in the poverty gutter as the model of fiction publishing doesn't really exist except in Hollywood movies. Eighty percent of fiction authors, no matter who publishers them, are poor on writing income. Of the remaining twenty percent, only about half can still afford to quit their day jobs.

The fiction publishing market relies on variety to sell -- if they don't have variety, they don't have enough readers buying, and their profit margins and cash reserves are so thin, they can't afford that. Fiction publishing is the land of a thousand niches, because the combined total of the niches is far more successful than just relying on the bestsellers -- most of which they can't predict will be bestsellers or by how much (unlike movies.) New books from bestselling authors lose money because of the discounts, and publishers use them to sell the authors' backlist, which makes the steady (and unexciting) money. Larger publishers must publish a maximum number of niches in order to make bank. Phenomena authors, which are rare and largely can't be predicted and certainly not engineered, get all the media attention and can effect markets mostly by expansion, not contraction, but while they can be a huge financial support to the particular house that publishes them, they aren't the steady money, and all the glamor that comes with them, or rather their film/tv adaptations, doesn't really apply to the regular business of fiction publishing. There are no focus groups, marketing data, etc., because they aren't much use to publishers.

The books that appear in the self-publishing market -- thousands and thousands of them -- are not any more unconventional than the ones put out by publishers. They are dominated by romance, just like the fiction paperback and e-book markets, followed by fantasy, mystery and science fiction. They do not have a lot of contemporary dramas, serious historical epics or international sagas -- the books that tend to get called "literary" that publishers put out and often sell well. Instead, the self-publishing market is dominated by what we call "genre" fiction -- the stuff that you are calling commercial formulaic fiction. A small percentage of publishers' titles sell well, the rest not that much. A small percentage of the self-published titles sell well, the rest not that much. An author may have been told by various editors that they don't want his novel because X is not moving for them right now, because publishing pros can be as stupid as the next person (and sometimes because they think it's a gentler blow than saying that they just weren't that interested in the author's writing.) And the author may then self-publish and it may sell. That doesn't tell you anything about publishers or the market, because books rejected by one publisher are picked up by another publisher all the time. Anything might sell, but if it does sell, it will be by word of mouth -- not by formulas, not by ads, not by who publishes it (because readers really don't care.) And publishers know this well, but other businesses can't believe it's true and get very frustrated when they own book publishers.

Self-publishing existed for a long time before the e-book market developed into a viable retail market, in paper and then in e-books before the Kindle. The development of retail e-books is not a revolution, it's not going to save anything -- it's simply a market expansion, and it seems to have largely just taken over mass market paperback sales from the shrunken wholesale market, now leveling off. (Which is not at all a bad thing.) That expansion from e-books has been mainly from the publishers' sales of e-books, but does involve the sea of self-publishing.

RichardWolanski said:
Why can't LeGuin be like LeGuin?

She can and she did. If they were really chuffed about it, they'd have just cancelled the contract. Le Guin is famed in children's/YA for her Earthsea books, as well as her adult SF, which are firmly cemented into school curriculums and sell steadily each year. (The SF is firmly cemented into high school and university curriculums.) Her books are bestsellers and she has the potential to attract a lot of attention for each one. The three last books mentioned are middle school novels aimed at 5th to 9th graders. So somebody, probably younger someones, said, "hey, we could potentially have a Harry Potter effect, so why don't you have throw in (whatever they think magically made Harry Potter sell,) because the booksellers want it (because everything sounds more official if you say the booksellers want it.) And Le Guin being Le Guin, she patted them on the head. Annals of the Western Shore was unlikely to sell as much as Earthsea, it being late in her career, but they were children's bestsellers, published internationally, lead titles for their publishers, won her a Nebula and a PEN award, helped sell another wave of Earthsea backlist titles and further increased her children's backlist, which will keep selling for decades. Publishers would like every book to sell at Harry Potter levels, (as would self-publishing authors,) but as is perfectly clear, that doesn't happen. No one has sold as much as the Harry Potter series, except the Bible and perhaps Agatha Christie. Le Guin's sales path for a middle school series in late age is more sedate -- but quite financially successful. But it's not sexy enough to get media attention. Because the non-SFF media doesn't like written fiction, especially the visual media. They are usually little interested unless it's a phenom or there's a film adaptation. (Le Guin had to deal with a bad tv adaptation of Earthsea recently, but did get media coverage out of it.)

Angelo Nero said:
I chose to do a sci fi novel, limiting my audience

Science fiction is doing great guns right now, especially in YA, but also in the adult sector, with quite a lot of adaptation deals of older and newer properties too. (We just had the nice announcement, for instance, that John Scalzi's best-selling satirical SF novel Redshirts will be a limited t.v. series on FX.) Science fiction is one of the most international genres at this point. So no, you're not limiting your audience.

I chose to do a dark novel with little romance, limiting its appeal once again

Well then you're in luck, because science fiction readers mostly don't like romance. They looovvveeee dark stories, from SF horror to grim military SF and dystopias (post-apocalypse or other,) and noir cyberpunk crime novels. In fact, every genre loves dark novels, so all well and good.

And finally decided to make my lead female character an australian, again limiting my potential readership to such a small portion of the market

The Australians are now very insulted. Contrary to what is often folk wisdom, readers in America don't care much if the protagonist is American or not. The Australian market is a bit more limited because their SF sector has been smaller than fantasy, so they aren't as known internationally for their SF as they are for fantasy, and because their market is small, their authors need international sales. But many of them are getting those sales, with distance less of a problem. Led by the venerable bestselling Greg Egan, a whole crop of Australian authors are doing really well. If you're located in another territory than Australia, having an Australian protagonist is not necessarily a hindrance, though you may run into people who claim that it is. The female protagonist will also get you people telling you that you can't sell as well. Just wave the Honor Harrington series in their faces.

RichardWolanski said:
Romance is easily the the highest selling genre.

1. Suspense is the highest selling genre. But romance owns paperback -- but mainly in the North Americas. Category romance novels tend not to sell as much internationally. Romance has done well in e-books, being the earliest genre market in e-books.

2. There is a difference between a romance novel and putting a romance sub-plot in a story. Nearly every novel has a romance sub-plot -- it doesn't make them romances and it doesn't necessarily help them sell. A romance novel is a specific thing. A lot of books get called romance that aren't -- because a woman wrote them and they are stereotyped. The category romance market has its own set of publishers, media outlets, etc., though they do crossover marketing.

3. Lots and lots of romance novels sell only relatively low amounts, but romance authors are often a lot more prolific, having several books out a year. Category romance novels get fewer reviews than say SFF, and less library sales, and they are typically given less time on the bookstore shelves than other types of books, but they can do quite well. Erotica is a separate category market but overlaps with romance.
 
I'm glad to hear that. I started writing a suspense novel about five years ago, got 85,000 words done, but before I finished it I got the idea for my sci fi novel. I felt more strongly about the scifi story so i put the other on hold and 120,000 words and three years later here we are!

I started writing the scifi novel with the knowledge (belief) that because it would have an australian lead that it would not sell too well os where the scifi market is stronger. I know that books are not confined to a country, and hope my book reaches beyond Australian shores if it is taken up by a local publisher, but that's what I believed at the time.

After reading all these posts I have decided to ensure my work is the best quality (no matter whether it be self published or tradpub) I have employed a copy editor. So far I have only managed to gather up enough funding to get the first chapter done and can immediately see its worth.

Having said that the professional editor picked up many of the same issues (pov, spelling etc) that my peer editor did. However given this is my first book I will continue to work on my kickstarter campaign to collect the rest of the funds to get it done professionally, after all, we only get one chance to make a first impression!
 
Thank you for digging a little deeper, KatG.

Those are some eye opening facts. I'm still new to this, and I will readily admit I'm learning. It's actually nice to know some people aren't getting hysterical about "dooming and glooming" the trad pub industry. We can actually co-exist. Honestly, like you mentioned, it's just the market is growing wider and being self-published is viable. Trends change all of the time and I don't have the interest to switch up my writing style because of it. The truth is I'll write until they pry my cold dead fingers from the "publish" button.

The book I'm writing now is a supernatural thriller (maybe that falls under suspense?). Truthfully, I don't care much to worry about will I or won't I be popular. I simply try to write a good story. I'm so close to the story I'm writing now that when I finish editing this first draft, I'll be closely researching editing services as well (Content or Line-editing especially). I'm going to to be extra picky when I get to that stage.

Glad to hear it Nero! It's definitely a good way to start finding your audience. Let us know when you start your campaign.

Oh, I wanted to add that I do believe advertising is a sound investment. Now, no amount of advertising will make a bad book good. However, advertising on places like BookBub can be beneficial when you're trying to find an audience.
 
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Angelo Nero,

I just thought about this randomly, but have you heard of pubslush.com? It's a crowdfunding site specifically for self-published manuscripts. It's not nearly as popular as Kickstarter, but it's worth a look.
 
Angelo Nero: While people do refer to science fiction as "scifi," it's still generally expected that the term "scifi" means SFFH on t.v. and in movies, rather than the books. Just call it a science fiction thriller, I'd recommend.

RichardWolanski: Hugh has been very successful and has been dealing with both self-publishing and partnering with a large publisher, and he does understand many parts of fiction publishing obviously. (And soon, Hollywood!) But Hugh was also at the beginning of the new retail e-book market and self-publish expansion. Consequently, there are views that he holds and has expressed which I think are off-base and mis-read parts of publishing, such as with reviews of self-published books and things he thinks publishers are doing wrong, and costs involved. But that's going to happen. It's also off topic and probably a topic better suited for the Writing Forum.

What readers look for on self-publish titles is first off authors that other people who they trust or at least are willing to consider are talking about (word of mouth.) If it sounds reasonable and the story sounds interesting to them, they may try it, especially if it's cheap.

The second most common way readers end up buying self-published works is because the author is a hybrid author, doing some things self-published and others with a publisher, or started self-publish, then partnered with a publisher, or has worked with publishers and then did some things in self-publishing. With the hybrid author, if they liked the works put out by the publisher -- which are more generally visible to them -- then they are likely to move on to the author's self-published works. And some of those people will then try other self-published authors they discover in the process of buying the hybrid author's books or hitting their blogs (word of mouth,) etc.

In the SFFH community, additionally, fans search out authors, so they will actively look for authors who are recced or hanging out with other authors they like and try their books sometimes, and they will check out the blog of an author if they hear of that author and if they like the blog, a small percentage may try the author's books. (But small percentages is how fiction publishing works.) So a website/blog/social media stuff is 2A there -- the author being visible and involved in the community, but not in a pushy sell, sell way because fiction readers get peeved.

The third most common way readers end up buying self-published works is that those works are bestsellers who show up on lists and occasionally promotional displays by Amazon and such of them as self-published bestsellers. They notice them the same way they would in a bookstore display of bestsellers. If they are selling so well to get on the lists, then obviously a fair number of people like those books, so the person may take a flyer on that book. Once they read the bestseller, they may read other self-pub bestsellers if the first turned out good. They may also try other self-pub books if they decide to go exploring from there.

A fourth common way that readers end up buying is that they see the cover for the e-book somewhere on the Internet and they like the cover. They check out what the book is and if it sounds interesting to them, they may then try it. That's what happened to me in ending up buying Lucas Thorn's Nysta: Revenge of the Elf. That's why covers have not disappeared from e-books, even though e-books are just data files. That's why paper books still have covers that hope to attract with color and sometimes graphics. That's why SFFH has a tradition of full out cover art.

Next up are reviews, with trusted media voices first, trusted bloggers, and the average reader review a distant third. A lot of readers don't read reviews, but it is a source of marketing for self-published authors and can possibly generate additional word of mouth. What self-published authors are learning is that you can't actually control reviews, you can only ask for them. An industry has now sprung up, and it unfortunately includes legitimate media outlets who find it a useful extra revenue, of selling review services to self-published authors. The media outlets just give you a review in their publication. The review companies plant usually generally positive but not effusive reviews in customer review places like Amazon and Goodreads, that the author could have just as easily gotten friends to do for free. It's pretty much a commentary on the fact that most readers don't really read reviews, so publications that do book reviews are now often willing to sell them. And self-published authors are attempting to outfox the review system through this, even though they don't even get to control what kind of review they pay for. But whether there is much return on paid reviews -- there is no data because fiction publishing doesn't do marketing data. Probably it would be shown to be negligible if any benefit. And the other reviewers, who just pick and do reviews, like here in SFFWorld where we have the official site reviews (which are not sold,) and members' personal reviews (which as far as we know aren't sold,) are not controllable either.

Readers don't care that much about negative reviews, especially from people they don't know. They tend to be skeptical about them and may even read a book because of negative reviews. Positive reviews have more of an impact to attract readers, and readers are skeptical about them to the degree that they know the person and that person's tastes. SFFH readers read more reviews than the average reader because they are core category readers who hunt for books and want to check out the new titles. So they will gather info to sort out which they'll buy. However, their personal preferences and word of mouth by close friends will weigh heavier than reviews, usually.

Fiction readers are marketing resistant, so ads don't usually do enough for the money they cost unless the author is already at bestselling levels. But ads can have some benefits for self-publishing authors -- they increase visible awareness of the book's existence, which can let the book be discerned from the thousands of other ones and spread the cover art around, which can be useful because self-published authors are actually fairly limited still in the number of outlets that they can sell their e-books through. Publishers have the advantage of being able to sell their e-books through many more vendors, and have paper versions that then are widely distributed through bookstores and a variety of other kinds of stores and through conventions and events. Having some big venues like Amazon means that some self-pub authors have been able to have large sales, matching publisher distrubtion, but we're talking about visibility -- that's still visibility in one place. For publishers or self-pub authors, the issue has always been making people aware that books exist. So visibility might snag some people who will check the book out and then usually apply the other criteria up above to a purchase decision. But ads cost money, so well-heeled self-pub authors will do better than poorer authors on this front.

So mostly, again, fiction readers choose self-pub books -- if they even know that they are self-pubbed -- pretty much the same ways they choose publisher produced books. There is a percentage of fiction readers who deliberately go hunting through self-pub books for finds, and this has certainly helped the expansion of the market.
 
Readers don't care that much about negative reviews, especially from people they don't know. They tend to be skeptical about them and may even read a book because of negative reviews.

That's good to know. It seems like there's a lot of review trolling in the self-pub community. It's certainly made me consider limiting my exposure to exclusively author forums/communities. It's an unfortunate dark side of the self-pub world. Honestly, when I pick up a new book I go with recommendations from friends or even something as simple as cover art(like you said). That's why it's imperative for authors to make their book look equally as good and better than trad pub books (even if it's only at a fraction of the cost.)

This whole topic kinda makes me want to start a "self-pub starter kit" topic in the writing forum to offer some friendly starter advice for people taking "the plunge". I don't know everything, but there's a lot I wish I knew before I started doing this seriously a month ago.

But ads can have some benefits for self-publishing authors -- they increase visible awareness of the book's existence, which can let the book be discerned from the thousands of other ones and spread the cover art around, which can be useful because self-published authors are actually fairly limited still in the number of outlets that they can sell their e-books through.

Definitely.

This isn't the same self-publishing market it was a few years ago when you could just turn your book free and and the readers would come flowing in. It does take some bit of marketing. You don't have to harass readers, but you do have to do a little leg work to find an audience. Self-pubbing is like running a business and what you're selling is your brand.

In my humble opinion, social media doesn't seem beneficial until you have really started to build your readership. From what I've seen of other authors who've "made it", so to speak, is that they've acquired a long list of books and built a platform through a mailing list and a spillover effect drew people to their social media profiles.


So mostly, again, fiction readers choose self-pub books -- if they even know that they are self-pubbed -- pretty much the same ways they choose publisher produced books. There is a percentage of fiction readers who deliberately go hunting through self-pub books for finds, and this has certainly helped the expansion of the market.

Yup, readers are looking for good books to read and don't concern themselves with the same minutiae we writers and authors do. I'm thankful for the self-pub market expansion. The joy of writing that first draft, editing (hiring editor this time around), typesetting, getting the green light from beta readers, designing a cover and finally holding the finished product on my ereader is a feeling that I simply can't describe.
 
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Angelo Nero,

I just thought about this randomly, but have you heard of pubslush.com? It's a crowdfunding site specifically for self-published manuscripts. It's not nearly as popular as Kickstarter, but it's worth a look.

Thanks. Plan on submitting it to a publisher in the first instance once the edit is done, with self pub as a fall back but will check it out for sure. Thanks.
 

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