Just finished Wrath of a Mad God!!!

[catsrule1]

Choke, I suspect you are right. The editor is supposed to catch the grammatical and construction errors, and edit length and composition to a degree - but you are right, the writer is supposed to be responsible for the contents and adherence to the past story line. Having never written fiction, I just can't imagine doing what Feist has achieved, or for that matter any author who has consistently written quality literature for such a period of time.

 

[hazer]

my opinions + demonwar and chaoswar?

hey all, i just finished reading it today (we are a bit behind here in Aus and it sold out early so i got it late)

I completely agree about the proofreading stuff, it just doesn't make sense to me that such a hugely anticipated and famous release wouldn't get even the level of editing that my assignments get. anyway, that didnt bother me too much cause i can just ignore it.

Feist does ignore me when he forgets about previous storylines though as has already been said. and i agree about the power level things, but i realised a long time ago that this was unfortunately necessary to have decent stories. IE a long time ago Pug reached a level of power that would make most obstacles laughably easy for him to overcome but who would want to read a book where Pug walked over omradabar destroying everything in his path and that was it?

Overall a fantastic book regardless, loved reading about Bek totally owning the tekerana

Though if i read one more time that "Magnus is a prodigious magic-user and may well exceed his parents power some day" or some variation on that line again i may set fire to my fiest collection

well, maybe not lol.

anyways, to my other point, ive read in numerous places about the apparent 4th and 5th riftwars, the demonwar and the chaoswar. But i can't find any information on them except for their names and i have no idea where even this information came from, can anyone help me out?

 

[Alexander66]

Oh boy, I haven't had such a mixed feeling about a book since I don't know when.

On one hand, I loved the book, I really thought it was enjoyable to read, like so many of Feists books.

On the other hand, I really disliked all the changes in the history of Kelewan and elsewhere. Really disliked it a lot.

Let's take the list;

- Eric not being married to Kitty.
- House Lujan apparently never existed.
- House Anasati being one of the five houses able to become warlord. (while Jiro once claimed his family being older then one of the five families, I can't remember right now which one but I thought it might be the Tonmargu, if the Anasati are mentioned in the list of 5 names, then that other family should not)
- House Minwanabi living as vassals to Acoma.

And I really don't understand why he'd simply forget all about that. I mean I see no reason whatsoever why he couldn't have written the book and kept those few things intact and correct. It's not as if the story would have been worse had he not changed the things.

So if he chose to change those things, then I really don't see why. If he simply forgot about the things, as in didn't have his facts straight, then that's just sloppy.

 

[catsrule1]

The surprise ending is that this was an alternate universe variation of the story where much of history is changed. The next volume will be the actual ending in the universe we know and love. Alternatively, we were not told that those books in which the debated history was presented, those were the alternate history....

 

[pugwtfpwns]

I'm sorry to hear these things... but not surprised. I'll read his latest, due to a need to finish this series. This book sounds like a good candidate for a premature release of an Author's Edition to rectify the plotline problems.

 

[Ouroboros]

Saw a review of 'Wrath of a mad god' in SFX magazine ... They gave it, surprisingly, four stars and quite a glowing review. Praised Feist's "descriptive" prose and the darker tone.

 

[Watcher]

Oh boy, where do I start?

Simply put, I hated it. I feel after so much effort and time I have put in to the Riftwar Saga over the years that I was owed more. Certain aspects about the story were entertaining but overall I was crushed. The repetition in the story was really starting to drag on me. If I could go back and mark how many times the story mentions Magnus is going to be stronger then Pug and Miranda one day, I may just implode. The story as a whole felt rushed and incomplete. Magician: Apprentice was one of the first fantasy books I read and I feel I owe it to Feist to continue something that felt so right so long ago. Dare I say, the magic in the Riftwar Saga is failing for me.

Anyone else feel this way?

 

[MrWall]

I am suprised at just how many people liked it

Just finished it today and I feel cheated, a feeling that has been growing over the last few books.

Ignoring the mistakes throughout the book

Feist at his best had a great system of magic, checks and balances, political intrigue and believable, flawed characters. Now we have a bunch of superpowered magicians wandering around doing pretty much nothing until they decide to

*******spoiler for ending************

Blow up a sodding planet, I mean really. he's tired from making a couple of rifts (7 if i recall) to another planet but can then make a mountain sized rift that also has the velocity and power to destroy a planet? I just don't buy it, and its a cop out anyway imo

************end of spoiler********

The concept was good, the execution awful. And please can we start seeing some real characters and not some typical fantasy cardboard cut outs like Magnus, or even worse his managing to make a brilliant character like Nakor become 2 dimensional

I just hope the Daemonwar saga is a step up (or flight of stairs up) from this

 

[Richardb]

I dunno about the innacuracies... I either did not notice them or just did not care. The story was well written, and the characters were interesting and fun to read. I've never expected Feist to be 'literary genius' but always expect a fun romp, great characters, and a few good twists and turns. It did not dissapoint me!

 

[catsrule1]

Actually, I liked it too, I'm willing to forgive a few errors here and there for a good story. Plus my memory is not so good that I remember each and every character well enough to see the discrepancies pointed out. I realize that for some one who is detail oriented, it would be very irritating. I still enjoyed it a lot. I look forward to the next, maybe even set 1,000 years in the future where another magician comes into power, and Pug and crew are history. It would be a shame to leave that universe and start another one - so much history and so interesting a place it is.

 

[Khallandra]

Yeah I liked it as well. Some parts weren't the best but on a whole it was an intriguing arc. Though for some reason the ending seemed a little empty, like it was missing some meat towards the end in the final scenes, maybe I should read it again to see if I missed what I think I was missing.

 

[...]

Yeah I liked it as well. Some parts weren't the best but on a whole it was an intriguing arc. Though for some reason the ending seemed a little empty, like it was missing some meat towards the end in the final scenes, maybe I should read it again to see if I missed what I think I was missing.

I don't think you missed anything, the first 3/4 seemed to do a good job of progressing the plot in a timely manner, by the last 1/4 seemed to be rushed. Feist should have stretched out the ending by about 50 or so pages to do it justice, considering the magnitude of what happens.

 

[mjolnir]

Finished the book, and shall now burden you all with my impressions thereof. They shall come in installments...

Well, I finished Wrath of a Mad God about two hours ago. I wish I could say I enjoyed it as much as I did Magician and the other early Riftwar books, but unfortunately these latest installments seem to continue a general downturn in the quality of Feist's work. For the purposes of what I'm about to say, I shall consider both the Conclave of Shadows series and the Darkwar as part of a single arc. The following is spoiler-ridden to the point that I'm not even going to try tagging everything.

One of the first and gravest problems with this conclusion to the Darkwar cycle is that it does not manage to give large parts of the Conclave of Shadows series a point, even retroactively. Let's look at this whole six-book arc for a moment: The first two novels in the Conclave of Shadows are told from the point of view of Tal Hawkins, who seeks vengeance against the villainous Duke Kaspar, who is in turn tied to the larger storyline because he is harbouring the arch-nemesis of Pug's Conclave, the unbelievably underdeveloped madman who's name I cannot spell. Two whole books are spent developing Tal Hawkins's only mildly interesting character, -- as well as ensuring that he becomes physically intimate with absolutely every woman with whom he comes in contact, but more of this at a later time. After his revenge plot wraps at the end of King of Foxes, Tal gets one point-of-view chapter in Flight of the Nighthawks to do his, [albeit entertaining], James Bond in Midkemia impression and then proceeds to do absolutely nothing of consequence for the entire rest of the arc. So, ... geez, ... guess those two books spent entirely in his service ought to have included some other stuff too. To his credit, Feist paints a fairly clear picture of the events of greater consequence going on around Tal's story, but why not use at least large parts of these books to follow characters who will actually be expected to go the distance in terms of character development over many books? Characters like, I dunno, Magnus, who we're so frequently told is oh-so-important even though he's got less personality than a brick wall that talks. Basically I see Tal as a character who ultimately turned out to be a waste of space, and take the first two books of Conclave as an example of sloppy arc planning. I have not actually read Exile's Return, and thus cannot comment on it usefully. It does strike me, though, having read Kaspar in later books, that his redemption story might have been handled in such a way as to make him a darker, more consistently tormented and angst-ridden hero, rather than just another of Feist's bluff-but-kind, hail and harty soldierly types. A lost opportunity.

And then we come to Flight of the Nighthawks, and two huge walking, talking problems called Tad and Zane. These are the two brand-new young heroes who are introduced and endure their coming-of-age story in Flight of the Nighthawks, and they turn out even more useless than Tal Hawkins. Much paper is mulched in their service during the cycle's already short first installment, but by the time the book we're actually talking about here, -- [Wrath of a Mad God, in case you've forgotten due to the length of my digressions], -- roles around, they have been entirely sidelined. They appear as Kaspar's aides during Wrath, but don't even get speaking roles 'till halfway through the book. Even then they do nothing unique to themselves, nothing that would justify including them, and I could quite honestly count the number of lines each gets on the fingers of both hands. Examining both these two wastes of space and the earlier Tal Hawkins, it almost seems as though Feist finds it necissary to include a coming-of-age plot in each new leg of this vast tale before he can get on with business, despite the fact that it inevitably gets pushed aside once things actually start happening.

Also, while he receives relatively little time in Wrath, we must consider the man who has been asked to bear the role of primary antagonist for a while now: the necromancer formerly known as Sidi, a gibbering madman so completely insane that he has not even displayed a consistent personality, let alone development. The likes of the charismatic dark-elf Murmandamus have been replaced by a stereotypical evil wizard that I might expect to find in a fantasy videogame, and not one of the good ones either.

My apologies for the lengthy build-up. I felt it important, as Wrath of a Mad God too has had such a build-up, and I feel that its important to take the material that has gone before into account when discussing it. Basically what I'm saying is that the seeds of the novel's destruction are to be found in books printed years before we even knew its title. So:

To be continued...
________
Toyota Tundra History

 

[mjolnir]

Wrath of a Mad God:

Pros:

-- Feist gives us Pug doing Pug things: Pug's world-shattering, [quite literally!], power has become a problem for dramatic purposes, because he's simply just so awesome that watching him becomes brain-numbing after a while, rather like watching a CG-heavy summer movie. Also, his intergalactic/dimensional travels which are becoming more and more prevalent have a tendency to make the whole Midkemia epic look like nothing more than swords and sorcery in spaaaace. That said, these are also two of the elements that gave the Serpentwar its unique feel, warts and all, and its sort of nice to see Feist not being shy with them.
-- We get answers: Whether you like them or not, Wrath of a Mad God really does provide answers to several of the series's most pressing questions, [including what is up with Nakor.] Some of them are rather silly answers. Some of them feel like Feist made them up on the spur of the moment to dig the series out of holes. Some of them change with a wave of a hand plot elements that we've taken for granted since Magician. But they are answers and their presence is appreciated.
-- Miranda is not completely useless: She whines for Pug a lot. The only reason this is annoying, though, and not just the understandable and human response of a person who misses those she loves, is that Feist insists on calling our attention to it every single time it happens. For the most part however Miranda is an acceptably able character in this installment.
-- It is fun: I wouldn't recommend it to any but fans like myself. Its not even in the same ballpark as Magician and Darkness at Sethanon quality wise, and I'm fairly confident that I'm not just looking at those books through rose-tinted glasses. But it is still fun. Credit where credit is due: I still enjoy Feist?s vision of D & D-esque fantasy. [Incidentally, he introduces another elf off-shoot in Wrath with a name and appearance that is quite literally straight out of the Forgotten Realms D & D setting.] From the vague political intriguing that always quickly gives way to adventure plots, to the portrayal of almost Star Wars-like alien species in a blatantly faux-medieval fantasy setting, I still enjoy the Riftwar universe, and, considering all the problems which plague the book, that is an achievment.

To be concluded...
________
ZX14 VS HAYABUSA

 

[mjolnir]

Cons:

-- continuity screw-ups: Other people have been over this. I would point out, though, that Erik von Darkmoor was one of the main pov characters in the Serpentwar, and forgetting about an entire arc of his development is a major, major oops.
-- the writing is awful: Feist relies on vast tracks of descriptive text to get across what is going on, passages stuffed full of largish words to make them sound sophisticated and hide the ham-fisted narrative technique. We are, for the most part, told what characters are feeling rather than being shown. Words are often reused close together or in place of a more appropriate synonym, giving the impression that the whole book was written just to get the story out there with no attention to how it was told.
-- the point-of-view: Feist uses a funky point-of-view camera which any debut author would be raked over the coals for employing in this age of tight perspectives. The narrative voice seems to hover a little ways behind the focus character's shoulder, but can quickly swivel and focus on another character without warning. This is great for moving the plot along, but gives the story an ungrounded quality and does not help the flat characterization. The style on the whole is very wonky and did not help my sense of immersion.
-- portrayal of women: Sometimes Feist is so misogynistic it hurts. Has been for a while now. Back during the original Riftwar series we had it good, but ever since around about Prince of the Blood things have been getting pretty dodgy and its gotten really bad in this most recent six-book arc. Basically every female character, major or minor, encountered in Conclave of Shadows was portrayed as a sex-loving hedonist, [Miranda exempted, as she did her time in Serpentwar], with few other character traits. I thought Feist had solved this problem by simply not casting any women other than Miranda in Wrath of a Mad God, [besides a brief appearance for Elfqueen Aglaranna which fans will appreciate]. Yet near the end there is a conversation held between some of the useless men discussed above about Jim Dasher's theoretical love-interest Michelle which just struck me as coarse and unnecissary. Note that I am male and consider myself hard to offend. It was just so superfluous, as though Feist had to get a good dig in.
-- and speaking of Jim Dasher... : Really, now, if Feist misses Jimmy the Hand so much that he felt it necissary to essentially include a slightly older, rougher, more bad-boy version of him, why wasn't the character introduced years ago instead of appearing cold out of nowhere? Ultimately, this Jim turns out to be little more than a plot vehicle, but if he had been developed from the beginning of the Conclave series, in the place of Tal Hawkins, say, something might have been made of him. Another example of spur-of-the-moment story construction. And really, why just pick on 'ol Jim? Magnus, Kaspar, all the characters being touted as the new generation, they all smack of "I was done before, but better", and are really rather flat. Even old characters like Pug and Tomas have lost a lot of what made them compelling, because they've essentially reached the end of their emotional arcs and evolutions but are driven on, shambling dolefully, in service to the plot. Nakor, meanwhile, continues his growing tendency to be more of an irritating and talky know-it-all plot device than the cheerful and mysterious gambler we met so long ago. I often felt that all the action was being propelled solely by Nakor revealing things when it suited the plot, ['cause he really has got all the answers.] This problem, however, is solved by the end of Wrath with Nakor?s death, which managed to be reasonably effecting even though I?m kinda glad he?s gone.
-- power overload: First it was the Great Ones of the Tsurani Empire. Then it was the Valheru dragon lords, formidable foes by any standard. For a while we kept it reasonable and engaging with the moredhel and the Pantathian serpent men. Then we had to get a little bit more cosmic, 'cause we'd already done the aforementioned, so we upgraded to demons. Then we went for the Nameless One, the nigh-omnipotent god of all evil who's mere name brings his vile eye to rest on the lives of tiny men. Now we've got to go one better, so we're gunning for beings from outside of time and space who are antithetical to all life, [introduced way back as a gloriously threatening sidenote, but now brought to the fore], ... I think you see the problem here. Feist is engaging in an arms race with himself to create ever more dire threats for our heroes, and its getting rather silly. Its also getting to the point at which the intrepid soldier/spy/other non-magicians whom Feist loves so much, to put it bluntly, can't do squat all.

I could go on, but I don't think I will. I'd love to discuss anyone's theories on how we got to this sad juncture with the Riftwar, or what you think will happen next, or why I'm full of it and the whole mess is still as good as it was in days of yore. Wrath of a Mad God was an improvement on Conclave of Shadows, but the whole serialized Midkemia story's still got huge flaws and I'm not sure Feist can fix them at this point in the game. I would recommend the book to fans, as it really does have answers. However, for any who, say, stopped at the end of Serpentwar, and are relatively happy with that end, I would honestly advise you to give this latest arc a pass. Who knows? You may find more enjoyment here than I did, but it is my humble belief that there are other things you could be doing. I look forward to the first volume in the Demonwar duology, Rides a Dread Legion, but I do so with trepidation. Let's hope it has more going for it than just that awesome title.
________
Sick from prilosec

 

[Steve Brickman]

Wrath of a Mad Feist Reader

ummmm...I actually think you've hit the nail on the head in everything you've said!

I also am pretty sure I don't look back at Magician/Sethanon (and even Silverthorn) with rose coloured glasses, they were awesome books, great stories, and just so entertaining.

With the latest Fiest installments I feel like i'm reading them JUST to get to the end and get the final result, kind of like reading all those crappy Goodkind books after book 3 or so (yes, I'm one of those people that stuck by that story to get a result)

SPOILERS!!

Pug has become way too powerful, which we may have wanted in the early books, but now (almost) nothing can stop him, hence the dreadlords re-introduction...
I really enjoyed the Tal Hawkins character in Talon/Foxes, but what was the point of him if he would occupy the first two books only, then be phased out so he can become a Gordon Ramsey type restaurateur??? What the??
Jim Dasher did nothing for me except remind me of how David Eddings used to "recylcle" his characters after the Belgariad series, basically the same character with a different name...not cool! Jimmy the Hand was an awesome character, and re-creating him as his grandson just seemed like the easy option...
I think I will look upon Fiests next installment warily, I have enjoyed so much of his work thus far, but I also sense a steady decline in his work, and would rather re-read his earlier work, then read the new stuff and be disappointed..

 

[maverikk]

well i certainly feel a bit sheepish following your indepth analysis - it takes me back to my A-level English assignments!! I think my problem was looking at this book (wrath) with the rose tinted glasses - glossing over the mistakes etc. Having re-read it since I do agree with the majority of the points made against the book. Largely it smacks of an author keen for closure - and impatience to start a new project - an opinion that has been echoed throught this topic!

I had never thought of the benignity of Tal Hawkins before, but now that it has been brought up - here's my 2c He's initially used (imho)to give us an introduction to the conclave from a newcomers perspective. I think his main use - although it takes a round about way in getting there - is to get to the point in the story where Kaspar is exiled to Novindus (you need to read exiles return for the details) and his subsequent redemption ala seoul on the road to Domascus - therefore leading to the conclaves knwoledge of the Talnoy etc etc etc...

going back to the errors in wrath - i still don't understand how if fans can clearly see errors in continuity and particularly grammar etc how an editing team have missed them - they should all be sacked!!!! - if i sucked at my job that much - i know i would be!

 

[maerek]

Feist fans deserve better

well i certainly feel a bit sheepish following your indepth analysis - it takes me back to my A-level English assignments!! I think my problem was looking at this book (wrath) with the rose tinted glasses - glossing over the mistakes etc. Having re-read it since I do agree with the majority of the points made against the book. Largely it smacks of an author keen for closure - and impatience to start a new project - an opinion that has been echoed throught this topic!

I had never thought of the benignity of Tal Hawkins before, but now that it has been brought up - here's my 2c He's initially used (imho)to give us an introduction to the conclave from a newcomers perspective. I think his main use - although it takes a round about way in getting there - is to get to the point in the story where Kaspar is exiled to Novindus (you need to read exiles return for the details) and his subsequent redemption ala seoul on the road to Domascus - therefore leading to the conclaves knwoledge of the Talnoy etc etc etc...

going back to the errors in wrath - i still don't understand how if fans can clearly see errors in continuity and particularly grammar etc how an editing team have missed them - they should all be sacked!!!! - if i sucked at my job that much - i know i would be!

Hi - newby here so be nice.

I've read around 1000 SFF novels (don't get out much!) and I found Magician/Silverthorn/Sethanon and the Empire to be two of the best trilogies around, defiinitely the few books I read again and again.

Since then Feist has given good stories but the books are about a third of the size of magician and seem to be just a money making venture and a bit of a means to an end - just something to keep the saga going without extending himself for the fans of his books.

To only get a 300 page novel (double spaced) and to have to pay what they cost now is ridiculous. Add to this the continuity problems and inconsistencies it is really frustrating.

Needless to say I'll keep reading, but I think we deserve better from such a grand tale.

So come on Ray (I know he will never see this post but anyway...) give back a little bit more to those who enjoy your work.