Just get published online somewhere?

Bestertester

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I know there's a thread but it's waaaay too long and I can't figure out how to search it, so:

At a writer's group, I was told that once you've gotten a short story published - even just online - you've cleared a hurdle to getting an agent. Two details:

1. Fan fiction doesn't count.

2. Except for that, non-pay online DOES count.

Really?
 
you've cleared a hurdle to getting an agent.
I think the operative word here is 'a'. There are many many other hurdles to go through when searching for an agent. Having a publication (anywhere with a legitimate editorial process) helps when searching for an agent, but it is not a shoe-in. Nothing is when it comes to agents.

Remember, agents are business partners. There's a lot to consider when soliciting that partnership (on both sides).
 
Well, no.

First off, short fiction publications are not very important to most agents when picking fiction novels/authors to represent. Yes, they are a good indication that other people who are not your relatives thought you could write well enough to be in their publication, but that doesn't prove to the agent that the agent is going to like your writing, which is what the agent cares about. It's definitely not an indication that your novel is a story that editors will want to buy and that the agent likes and find interesting. It just means that your novel chapters may be less painful to read for the agent.

The majority of the authors who an agent will represent will either have no publication credits whatsoever or will have more extensive track records than a couple of short fiction publications. (This is particularly true of fantasy writers.) What those two groups have in common is that they all had projects that the agent liked, thought others would like and so can place it, and either is a newbie with a completed manuscript or an author with a track record who can manage to produce a completed manuscript. The story, in fiction, and your writing are much more important than the credentials of the author. The assessment of the agent of your writing and story will be 100% subjective and particular to that agent, the agency the agent is in, and the agency's needs and abilities at the time you submit.

That being said, there's no reason not to list professional publication credits if you have them. It may get an agent to look more seriously at your query, synopsis, to move you up in the reading queue, or to ask for sample chapters. But a lot of authors don't understand what professional means.

If you write fan fiction, that's entirely for your own amusement and is not a professional credit. They don't care. Even if you have an audience of thousands for your fan fiction, that doesn't mean you can write a novel that they can use. It means maybe you can, but they'd have to take a look at the novel, same as anyone else who didn't write fan fiction.

If you write fiction and place it with a publication that cannot pay you, online or print, that is an amateur publication. It's an indication that someone liked your writing, but it's not an indication that you particularly appealed to a paying audience. They won't much care, though it doesn't hurt to list it, since sometimes non-paying publications do grow to become paying ones.

If you write fiction and place it with a publication that isn't very well known in the SFF category media and they paid you five bucks, that counts as a sort-of professional publication, but it isn't really going to interest agents much. There are lots and lots of little SFFH publications out there and they help, but they aren't widely heard. Unless the particular publication has a strong rep in the community, it's not going to have much weight. It doesn't hurt to list it as it indicates that you've begun to build very slowly an audience.

If you write fiction and you get it placed in a respected semi-pro or pro magazine or respected non-category magazine, they will pay a bit more attention to that. It means you are building an audience and people who are word of mouth nexuses in the community -- SFFH magazine editors -- believe in your work and invested in it, which indicates you might have something good for a novel.

If you get published in an anthology and are paid for it, even if it's a small anthology for which you didn't get much, that counts as a solid pro credit. An anthology is a project into which a certain amount of time and expense has to be put and then is marketed. So the stories they pick, they pick with care, which again indicates that people who are often actively seeking voices in the community think your work will attract an audience. The bigger the anthology (i.e. if it's being put out by a major house, if a well known author or editor edits it, etc.) the more solid a credit it is. But, even so, agents are aware that there are authors who get lots of stories into anthologies but have trouble coming up with what various agents find a workable novel project.

(Novels can also come out of short stories that are well received in anthologies and pro or well known semi-pro publications, and agents are aware of that and frequently may go hunting among these for authors.)

If you self-publish short fiction, they don't care, unless it sold a lot, in which case, you've built an audience, so that's a solid credit. If you got on a straightforward Amazon bestseller list for short fiction, that may interest them somewhat. If you self-published a novel and it sold well, that is very interesting to them, including possibly trying to do a reprint sale of the self-published novel. But if it didn't sell well, then that's either a problem or you just didn't build a lot of book audience yet, which is not of much interest.

If you did a short publication of some kind and it gets a recognizable award nomination, that they would want to know, even more if you win it. That signals that people are liking your stuff so much that they are trying to get it awards or are rewarding it with merit if they are jury judges. That indicates you've got an audience and is something to attract other readers to. So that's a credit if they know what the award is.

Ultimately, agents understand that people starting out with a first novel in the market don't usually have a lot of or any credits. If an agent doesn't want to deal with first-timers -- and there are some who don't -- they usually say so, telling first-timers not to query them or closing their stables altogether to submissions and just soliciting quietly targeted authors. But otherwise, if an agent will take submissions from first-timers, they aren't expecting you to have a ton of pub credits and they won't necessarily put you ahead of others if you do. They might read you slightly first if you have a lot of short fiction credits in major pubs, but unless you've published novels that have done well, short fiction credits are only indications that you might be able to write. The entire short fiction market of SFFH is largely a labor of love by the field. It barely to not at all exists in other fields. And it's not critical anymore to the SFFH novel field.

But what is critical to the SFFH novel field is new blood. First-timers are easier to market than mid-listers in some ways, and have a better shot at media attention as first-timers. Publishers regularly look for new novels which booksellers are willing to take a chance on and actually budget for. So first-timers have a good shot, if a good shot in a sea of good shots. Professional credits can make you stand-out a little, but they aren't required and they won't be considered the real word on your novel. The novel will have to work for the agent on its own.
 
I have a question that might relate to this @KatG .

Do the stories we enter in contests here count as prints?

An editor I wrote to recently told me that any publication of a story in a public forum will count as a print - which then means any subsequent publication of the story is a re-print, which is then worth less to the writer from a remuneration standpoint.

Does the password protected nature of the stories subsection in SFFWorld mean that it isn't public and therefore not a print?
 
I enter flash fiction on another site and was able to use one as a printed credit because it was published as the winning entry on their lead forum page, and because the prize was £10 in value (which for 300 words was paying rates.)

In terms of do you need credits - no, but it does no harm to have some as it does show a commitment to writing, and some knowledge of being copy edited and what not.
 
@KatG -- amazingly informative answer, thanks!

I think it's worth noting that agents are people. I've spent my entire career running a business to business services company, and our results are all down to personal relationships. Hard numbers barely come into it! It's all down to how well we get on with the clients, etc. It's the same with agents and everyone else. It doesn't matter how good your work or proposition is -- there's got to be some personal chemistry there.

That said, that only really kicks in after you've been noticed for the first time, and that's the hard part in this industry.
 
I have a question that might relate to this @KatG .

Do the stories we enter in contests here count as prints?

An editor I wrote to recently told me that any publication of a story in a public forum will count as a print - which then means any subsequent publication of the story is a re-print, which is then worth less to the writer from a remuneration standpoint.

Does the password protected nature of the stories subsection in SFFWorld mean that it isn't public and therefore not a print?

Sorry, Luka. I'm travelling and so my Internet use is sporadic.

SFFWorld does not consider the putting up of any work here for feedback as a first serial publication of any sort. It's workshopping a piece for feedback. We are not a publication. We do not solicit submissions or sell works to others or collect advertising presenting works to others online. We do not run the contests on the Writing Forum, which are mutual feedback contests and writing exercises. They were created by the members of the forum, are run by them and have no cash prizes, payments or credited publication. We have no interest in or contract with authors who may post works or excerpts of work here, or artwork when we've had artwork forums. We do not exploit your rights in any way, nor can claim the right to exploit them.

If you put your work up in whole and final on say your blog or website, for others to view, that can be considered a first serial publication -- first publication. Many magazines and anthologies take second serial publications (not a reprint exactly, but a second publication.) They may also consider a first serial publication that is just the author putting stuff up for free as not really a problem as first serial and publish it as first serial. But it can be considered a first serial publication because you the author are exploiting your rights in the work and presenting it to a reading audience as a finished story thereby. But to publish the work in a publication that is not yours requires an agreement of some kind between you and the publication that the publication has permission to exploit the rights with you in publishing the work in its finished form.

Again, we are not a publication and a public forum can't be considered a publication unless it sets up rules and agreements as to writers publishing their finished stories for a reading audience in that forum. So while you may run into the occasional editor of a publication who doesn't want stories others may have seen online before and counts you workshopping here as that exposure, as a first printing, we have no right or interest in such a first printing and you workshopping it here is not you self-publishing it as a first printing either technically. No rights have been used. So mostly it shouldn't be a problem. You can further reduce the issue if you don't put up the full text here of a story you want to sell.

As for how password protected we are in the story forum, I don't actually know. Presumably, members of the forums can access the story forum; I don't know if lurking visitors can. I can ask.

The reality is that if you put a draft story up here for feedback, and then change a few words and set it off for submission, you didn't publish the story, since the finalized story was never put up online. So you might run into a picky editor -- who you don't necessarily want to work with, but mostly it is not an issue.
 
Thanks, @KatG . Imma gonna copy that comment and save it as an RTF doc.

Seems fully legit soundin'
 
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