November '05 BOTM: Ringworld by Larry Niven

[FicusFan]

What did people think of the Pak protectors then?

I think they're explored more fully in his other books, but the basic idea was good. The parallel's to aging were cool, although they did make some parts of it a bit arbitary - if the Pak physiology and brain was so much better, why wouldn't humans have it?

The only real problem i had with them is how they randomly hated each other , and how they always ended up being a bit evil. A super intelligent completely altruistic being wouldn't have to have its evil schemes foiled quite so often by Loius Wu

I read the book Protectors by Niven which explains them. Humans are quasi-descendents of the Pak Protectors and they develop the physiology and brain of the Protector once they are finished the breeding stage and eat Tree-of-Life. Humans who are still breeders don't need those attributes to breed, and they are supposed to have Protectors to look after them. The Protector's aren't evil, they are just incredibly short-sighted and so focused on their off-spring to the exclusion of all else that they end up creating destruction around them in their efforts to 'protect' their off-spring. They will fight each other in the name of their off-spring. The term Pyrrhic victory springs to mind.

Edit:

I forgot to say that I thought the whole thing was cool. How Niven looked at old age differently and came up with the Protectors. That what was a negatvie could be a positive.

 

[AlienLogic]

Ringworld is my favourite novel and I would consider Larry Niven my favouite author.
I first read Ringworld about 23 years ago and have lost count of the number of times I've reread it. So obviously I am a fan.

I think that read alone it does not have the impact of when it is read along with Niven's other Known space work. Before I read Ringworld I had read a few Niven short story collections (including Neutron Star) and I believe this enabled me to appreciate and enjoy the story better.

I love the aliens (Puppeteers and Kzin).

With regards to Pak Protectors, although they have very high intelligence they also have extremely strong instincts to protect and advance their offspring - this theme is expanded on in Ringworld Engineers (which I enjoyed almost as much as Ringworld).

Glenn

 

[odo]

I have read Ringworld about 20 years ago, but I don't remembered much of it (though, oddly enough, I remembered Luis Wu travelling all around the world to have a 48 hours long birthday ). Thus, I read it again for the club.

I found the first part of the book (till they crash on the Ringworld) very, very interesting and enjoyable, but from that point on the plot seems really flat to me. It is a pity, since there are many goods ideas in the book, but it finally turns to be just a kind of adventure in a post-apocalipsys world. Not much interesting, IMHO.

I also found some similarities with Asimov's style. I mean, most of the "revelations" about the ringworld are given in the dialogues, and are discovered by the characters which are clever enought to figure everything out...

I read the book in a Spanish translation and I have to mention that it was not very good. I found many errors (grammatical, typos...) and it makes me think that there were other kind of errors too, since some parts were really difficult to understand and quite cumbersome.

Anyway, I think this is a book that every SF fan should read. It has many interesting ideas and the first part is really worth reading.

By the way, in Spain there is a series of books which is a kind of tribute to Ringworld. It has been written by Javier Redal and Juan Miguel Aguilera and it is set in Akasa-Puspa, a globular cluster which orbits the Milky Way. There are BDOs (for instance, a Dyson sphere), lifeforms adapted to live in the vacuum, alien species, von Neumann machines... And also a lot of genetic, engeneering and astronomy, a mix that I find particularly interesting in Ringworld. I should say that I find the Akasa-Puspa series far better than Ringworld (though sometimes the source of "inspiration" is quite evident). If anybody reads in Spanish (of French, since I think there is a translation) I recommend it absolutely.

 

[Archren]

I had read this before, but wanted to give it a thorough re-read before saying anything. (I've been really behind on the book club books recently, but I've got Cyberiad and will start reading it soon, I promise! )

I liked the book, no question. I think my favorite part is Nessus the puppeteer. That whole concept was just really cool to me. Also, I think the characterization was a little stronger for the aliens than it was for the humans (perhaps Niven felt less constrained by realism). I love the Ringworld concept, the machinations that Nessus goes through to bring everyone together, and the myriad attempts that Niven tries to get across just how damn **BIG** Ringworld actually is.

That said, there's something about the plotting that didn't work for me. I think it might be a pacing problem somewhere. I'm usually a big fan of idea-driven logic-puzzle adventure stories (ala Asimov), but something kept slowing me down while I was reading this. I can't quite put my finger on it. I agree with Odo that the first half moved more smoothly than the second.

Two other comments: both the female characters were concepts, not characters, which I found wierd, especially since they were both so over-sexed. The feminist revolution obviously had not impacted Niven too much when he wrote this.

And one thing that just absolutely cracked me up when I was reading it was the description of Teela's love interest Seeker, the absolute embodiment of every fantasy hero stereotype. I loved it!

 

[Phantos]

I was honestly disappointed overall.
I did enjoy the pace and reading the book, always looking for the 'next thing' to happen...

which..

Niven never really took me there.

the characters are paper thin. (i do like the puppeteer)
the world building, isn't really world building, it just eludes to it.

I am sure I would have enjoyed this book much more 10 or 15 yrs ago.
but now I am left wanting more, unfullfilled.

still a fun read, all BDO books usually are, but this was...

just such a damn tease.

 

[Mugwump]

I re-read Ringworld just for this discussion.

I don't see any reason to differ from my oft-repeated opinion of it.

 

[homosap]

Well that hits the nail on the head

I re-read Ringworld just for this discussion.

I don't see any reason to differ from my oft-repeated opinion of it.

Monthly book club, read book and offer opinion, seems straight forward. Some of us may not be aware of your 'oft-repeated' opinion and may value and treasure the insights it gives us.

I'm guessing it wouldn't be positive but hopefully it won't include an accusation of laziness against the author. Nothing more frustrating than a writer, or critic, too lazy to expand upon what they mean

 

[Mugwump]

Monthly book club, read book and offer opinion, seems straight forward. Some of us may not be aware of your 'oft-repeated' opinion and may value and treasure the insights it gives us.

I'm guessing it wouldn't be positive but hopefully it won't include an accusation of laziness against the author. Nothing more frustrating than a writer, or critic, too lazy to expand upon what they mean

I'll cut and paste from other threads:

I'll attempt the best answer I can:

Yes, Ringworld is dated - but that's not the problem. I read a lot of old Science Fiction. Stuff from thirty or forty years ago - right back to the works of H.G. Wells and friends. I can cope with dated. I can make allowances for it. If I couldn't I'd find it impossible to enjoy the anachronistic delights of Heinlein, Asimov, Eric Frank Russell, Clifford Simak, James Blish and so forth.

The main issue I have with Niven is, like Poul Anderson, he can’t write characters or dialogue. Now, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not asking for fully realized, emotionally complex “three-dimensional” protagonists. I’m not even asking for “three dimensional” (hell, I’d rule out two-thirds of SF if did). I just want, at the very least, reasonably interesting people/creatures who I can engage with on some facile level. Niven doesn’t deliver them because he’s a tourist guide author who has little understanding of the basics storytelling and writing full-stop. Yes the sophisticated and intelligent concepts are there. Yes his colorful and evocative descriptions of the ringworld work well. But the “living” elements are disastrous: jarring people who do and say even more jarring things. It’s this juxtaposition of the sublime and the ridiculous that I find difficult to digest.

A friend of mine thinks I’m a hypocrite because I like Rendezvous with Rama and loathe Ringworld. He argues that the books are pretty much facsimiles (awe-inspiring descriptions of backdrop, rubbish characters). I think he’s wrong because whilst Clarke’s characters are infamously lightweight (the only semi-decent character study written by Clarke I can think of is The Fountains of Paradise), they’re never jarring. Clarke also had the good sense to make his main character the spacecraft itself, which is without doubt the star of the book. Niven, on the other hand negates the spectacle of ringworld by shoving a seven foot walking, talking cat (or some other monstrous creation) under the reader’s nose just when his imagination is luxuriating in the grandiosity of it all. It’s like trying to eat a monster tub of Häagen-Dasz with the phone ringing every sixty seconds.

In short: nice idea, atrocious delivery. This is the book that left me wanting to read anything other than SF for months.

 

[Ropie]

I re-read Ringworld just for this discussion.

Blimey! Was it worth it, given that your opinion of it (that I happen to agree with) wasn't likely to change?

always looking for the 'next thing' to happen...

which..

Niven never really took me there.

Yes, there is a lot of waiting - for nothing - with this book.

 

[Mugwump]

Blimey! Was it worth it, given that your opinion of it (that I happen to agree with) wasn't likely to change?

I tried it again because people keep telling me how good it is. I figured I may have been suffering from manic depression or post-traumatic stress disorder or dengue fever when I read it - ergo my disappointment.

Turns out I was right all along and everyone else is nuts.

 

[Janos]

Alright, it's been a while since I've read this, and while I was thoroughly impressed with the idea of the Ringworld, I wasn't too impressed with the story overall. I didn't really have any desire to read any of the other books in the series.

I think Ringworld is a good example of a book that's designed to display a BDO in great detail rather than try to tell a good story. In contrast to something like Greg Bear's, Eon, where the BDO was prominent, yet the plot was very story driven. Even though the story kind of sucked in Eon, I think it was a lot more involved than the story in Ringworld, but you can tell Bear tried harder to focus on a story than Niven did. I guess if I were to make a comparison, a similar book to Ringworld would be David Gerrold's, Jumping Off The Planet. The story came in second to the great big Space Elevator.

So, all in all, I think I too will give it a 7/10. I was really fascinated by the detailed descriptions of the Ringworld and the wonder of it, but the story really was nothing to write home about.

 

[Erfael]

Niven doesn’t deliver them because he’s a tourist guide author.....

I think this one little line just about sums up my issue with the book.

So then my next question is: Does he have any books that are significantly different enough to try and get a different reaction than I did out of Ringworld? Is his stuff similar enough that I'll probably dislike all Niven, or is there something wildly different in presentation and ideas that I'll probably like it?

 

[clong]

Some of his books are quite different in presentation and ideas. I am a big fan of The Mote in God's Eye and The Gripping Hand, but I know Mote elicits similarly divergent responses. You might try Lucifer's Hammer or The Legacy of Heorot or Destiny's Road.

 

[Archren]

Yeah, when he writes with Jerry Pournelle ("The Mote in God's Eye," "Footfall," "Lucifer's Hammer"), a lot of the plot, dialog, pacing & characterization problems fade away. It's a matter of each balancing the other's strengths and weaknesses.

BTW, I find Niven (writing alone) to be more enjoyable at the shorter lengths, where everything can be more idea-focused and his weaknesses don't have time to become apparent. Erfael, you might enjoy the short story collection "N-Space," which has some fun ideas and also has some good story notes by the author.

 

[jaded25]

I may have been a little late but I was just skimming through the topics and remember reading Ringworld back in my freshman year of high school. I vaguely remember the details of the story but me and my friend started to argue over if the cloning was ever brought up in Ringworld. I said yes because of the all the children and he said there wasn't any mention of cloning. Does anyone remember if there was cloning in Ringworld?

 

[LordBalthazar]

I was really looking forward to reading Ringworld. And, after the first few chapters, I was happily rewarded. Niven creates an incredibly inventive world peopled by some equally inventive characters. His writing style is possessed of a terrific, occasionally twisted comic bent. The idea of the ringworld itself, this mysterious massive artificial construct, is a brilliant, thoroughly engaging concept. I was loving this book - up until our characters actually being their exploration of the ringworld, at which point the wheels came off. In the words of one of Fred Williard's comic creations: "Wha happened?"

A great set-up ultimately undone by a frustratingly meandering journey through the novel's final two-thirds. Ultimately much ado about not all that much. I can't remember the last time I so struggled getting through the last 50 or so pages of a book.

I've heard very positive takes on Niven's work with Pournelle and was considering looking into Lucifer's Hammer, but I'm afraid this novel has scared me off.

 

[Ropie]

I agree with you that the exploration of the Ringworld itself is a bit dull compared to the build up to getting there. We are also constantly distracted by Niven's theory on luck as a universal force, which as far as I could make out had nothing to do with the Ringworld itself, other than the fact that Teela made it there and survived!

 

[LordBalthazar]

I agree with you that the exploration of the Ringworld itself is a bit dull compared to the build up to getting there. We are also constantly distracted by Niven's theory on luck as a universal force, which as far as I could make out had nothing to do with the Ringworld itself, other than the fact that Teela made it there and survived!

I liked the idea of "manufactured luck' and the long-term project put in place by the puppeteers but by novel's end, it was the driving force of the adventure and just became tiresome.

 

[Tony Williams]

I find it difficult to separate my opinion of this book from the context in which I became acquainted with it.

I read it when it first came out in paperback in the UK, in 1973. I was already a Niven fan (in fact, I still have almost everything he's written, including all of the "Known Space" series, on my bookshelf). I was at that time a young man who had been reading SF since the age of seven, and I was getting through two or three novels a week (of course, most novels were shorter then...). There also seemed to be far fewer SF novels published then, so I was able to keep up with most developments - out of the question nowadays.

It may be hard to realise now, but Niven was "The Man" at the time. His books had great impact, they were so packed with exciting new ideas and - by the standards of SF at the time - good plots and adequate characterisation, plus humour. "Ringworld" was the jewel in his crown. I think I read that book three times, the last maybe twenty years ago, and it still sticks in my mind as one of my favourites. I have to admit that the sequels were nowhere near as good, as usual.

Compared with a current author like Alastair Reynolds, Niven's books now seem simplistic. But IMO they are still a good read if you want something entertaining and imagination-stretching that skims along quickly and easily. With some modern authors, I know their books are good, but they are so densely written - and so long - that I have to wind myself up and grit my teeth before I can start on them.