October BOTM: Daughter of the Forest

[Eventine]

I'm currently halfway through.
This book reminds me a bit of Cecilia Dart Thorton's Ill Made Mute - there are several parallels such as the female protagonist (mute) and elements of traditional fairy tales included. The writing flows a lot better than Thornton though.
I haven't really enjoyed it though - it's not quite my thing and only 1 moment in the story so far has actual captured me.
I'll discuss some more when I'm done.

Anyone finished?

Discuss.

 

[Beleg]

Which moment captured you?


Personally I found the interaction between Sorcha and her brothers to be excellent... And Finbar is an excellent character.

In my opinion, the story expands and gets more pacy in the second half - atleast that's the impression I got from my reading [read it a few months ago], all the fun comes in when Sorcha reaches Harrowfield.

 

[Rob B]

I'm also at about the midway point, so there may be some spoilers. I started it earlier this week and work and life have kept me farther away from the book than I would have liked.

Impressions thus far - I am beginning to enjoy the first-person narrative more and more, and in Marilier's case, I find the style works very well with the story. I think the 1st person narrative is a great tool for the author to better connect with their reader, the "fourth wall" so to speak is less substantive and, at least I, feel this deepens the connection between reader/writer.

The characters have been built up very well, and I suspect as the story continues, we will see more (needed, imo) about Oonagh.

One aspect I really enjoy about the book/story is Marilier's emphasis on the power of story. Sorcha seems to have little tales for everything, from the tales she tells the injured Simon, to the tales she relates to her brothers, to the tales she tries to tell herself as she is being raped. To me Story is one of the more important themes in the book and Marilier weaves this throughout very skillfully.

For those interested here is a link to the Fairy Tale which inspired The Sevenwaters Trilogy: The Six Swans

 

[Nimea]

I am not yet half-way through it - too little time.

And so far I am really enjoying it. The writing style flows and the characters are interesting. Apart from the cover art , the writing somehow reminds me of Jacqueline Carey - can't really tell you why, and it's just a little bit.

I think Fitz is right with stories being an important theme . . . oh, and great idea to give the link to the fairy tale. Actually I really like this tale ever since I saw it on Jim Henson's Storyteller many many years ago. When the book was nominated first I was not really thrilled by it - but I did not take a close look, so I missed that it was based on that fariy tale. Now I am rather glad we are reading it.

More when I am finished, but I think that will take a while.

 

[Rob B]

Actually I really like this tale ever since I saw it on Jim Henson's Storyteller many many years ago.

I loved that Jim Henson show, hopefully I'll be getting it for birthday or Xmas, but that's neither here nor there.

Her style is reminiscent of Carey, agree, though whether this is due to both works being first person narrative or both authors being women, can't tell for sure. However, where Marillier is a stronger storyteller is the dramatic tension is still there halfway through the novel, the characters are sustaining interesting thoughought the whole narrative, thus far.

I reached out to Juliet Mariller hoping she will stop by.

 

[Nimea]

I loved that Jim Henson show, hopefully I'll be getting it for birthday or Xmas, but that's neither here nor there.

The DVD is already on its way to me. Hopefully will arrive next week.


About the book on hand:
I think it is more because of the first person narrative (for example the self-reflecting and foreshadowing) - I am always reluctant of looking at a writing style compared to the author's gender, but in this case I think it might have something to do with the female perspective as well. And yet it's not a general similarity - there are other female writers doing first person narrative and there I did not feel like comparing it to Carey . . . you know what I mean?

(And I can't agree with you about stronger storyteller (yet) - since I was hooked by Carey throughout and even had to read on while talking with friends visiting me. )

 

[FicusFan]

Warning Spoilers for Those Still Reading

I finished the book. On the whole I really enjoyed it. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it was written and at how much the story sucked me in.

I actually owned these books before the first one was chosen, but they are not really something I would normally buy or read. I think the covers are sappy, and the blurb on the back of the first one seems to be rather bland. Then there is a quote from the Romantic Times - which is another turn off. That said I was given the third book at one of the World Fantasy Cons and since I can't abandon an unread book, or read a series out of order I bought the other 2 in PB. But I was in no rush to read them.

I liked the writing style it was smooth, and had weight without being heavy - it reminded me of a creamy custard. Sorry but I actually feel the writing when I am reading and that was the best way to describe what I felt.

I don't mind first person narrative - it is limiting, but it can also be intensly riveting. In this case it seems that she is either omniscient, or writing about past events. The blurb on the back talks about an "Evil Stepmother, and Kidnapping, and Fighitng to Save her Brothers", but she starts the book with her childhood. She intimates that she knows what is to come in the future, several times.

I generally don't like books where the POV character talks about the story in the past - I find it static and I always feel that the past stuff is filler and the real story is ahead somewhere and the reader is being kept from it. I felt that here, even though I liked the tales of her brothers and how she grew up, and realize that it was required to build up their characters and relationship, and the connection to magic, nature and the land.

I thought her brothers were well done, and when she went to nurse Simon I also thought that was very well done. Good characters, good dialog, interesting plot, great natural pacing.

My first problem arises with the stepmother. I don't think she was really fleshed out. I can't decide if she was a human woman with access to evil magic, or an evil fairy taking human form. I suppose she may have been left blurry to add to the mystery. But I could never figure out her motivation. If she were a human woman and wanted to be lady of the manner, a house with seven mostly grown children doesn't seem to be a good bet for where you want to invest your time in trying to usurp it for yourself and your eventual children. She also seemed like the type who liked rich things, finery, and fun, and lots of courtiers fawning on her -and Sevenwaters was cash poor, isolated, and rather a dump in terms of style. It just never made any sense as to what she really wanted. If she were a fairy what was she after - there was no talk of gold, or magic items or anything else that they usually want.

I really liked the part in Britain, the journey there and her trying to fit in and finish her work. I liked the characters there though I thought Elaine was too modern, and her father the evil uncle another cliche. I liked Red, and his stiff mother and Margery and John and Ben.

I noticed though that the author used people and events for the plot and then seemed to drop them when she thought she was done with them and I felt just left them hanging.

If Simon was so loved by his family and the tenants why did he tell such a tale to Sorchia about being the unloved outcast ? I could understand him feeling they were overprotecting him, and smothering him, but not that they didn't care. The mother's love for her sons, their love for her, her pain and grief at losing Simon which forced Red to keep searching year after year is not even given any thought when he leaves home for good. The little dog in Britain just disappears after it is shot until it pops up again when Simon returns. Where is Elaine the strong minded independent woman who loves one brother and likes the other when her father is trying to kill Sorchia and steal the estate ? It is like a note is played to fit it into the weave of the story but once it is heard the playing stops and it makes the characters used that way seem shallow and lifeless, yet they are not that way in the actual story.

The next issue is how things all work out in Briton. At the last minute she seems to save her sixth brother even as she breaks her vow. She is saved in the nick of time, and Simon is returned home and made whole. It just seemed too pat and cliched for me. It wasn't until this part that the book took on a 'romancy' tone for me.

In fact once her brothers come back, the pacing of the story changes and everything just gets wrapped up so neat and tidy and very quickly compared to how the book was through 2/3 of it. Then they all just fade away and it seems that everything she went through was not really worth it. It just seemed to have a lack of balance between what she expended and what was returned to her, in terms of the depth of the story and the length of time it took to tell it .

I am not sure how much the author was tied into form and content by the legend, but I would rather have a good story than a good imitation of the legend. I think for 3/4 of the book the story was very good and very moving, and at the end perhaps either market forces or the desire for a quick ending got the upper hand, and the story was not at the same level.

Overall I really liked it. I think it was actually much better written than Carey's book and much more compelling in terms of the story.

 

[Beleg]

FiscusFan, IIRC the character and motivation of Sorcha's mother is expanded and explained exponentially in the third book.

I read Marillier before reading Carey and I never found Carey's writing to be remniscent of Marillier. Marillier seems to have a free, easyflowing, lyrical sort of a writing smile and is great at drawing out emotions. This specially shows in the third book, which IMO is the best of the three.

 

[Eldanuumea]

It would never have occurred to me to draw a comparison between the writing of Marillier and Carey. Of course, it has been well over a year since I read the Sevenwaters trilogy, and at least six months since I finished the Kushiel series.
Perhaps I just need to go back and reread.........(eying the already swollen to-read pile with guilt).

There is a version of the Wild Swans fairy tale in my old Shirley Temple storybook, which I loved as a child. I think that has always been my very favorite "fairy tale," and I remember being thrilled when Mears suggested I read the series. (I miss him around here.....used to be a great poker partner at the old pub).

 

[Rob B]

I finished the book. On the whole I really enjoyed it. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it was written and at how much the story sucked me in....I think the covers are sappy, and the blurb on the back of the first one seems to be rather bland. Then there is a quote from the Romantic Times - which is another turn off. That said I was given the third book at one of the World Fantasy Cons and since I can't abandon an unread book, or read a series out of order I bought the other 2 in PB. But I was in no rush to read them.

I hate to agree, but I kind of felt the same way, at least of what appears on the surface. The opening summary on the back "Lovely Sorcha..." is a bit off-putting.

I think (US) cover artist John Jude Palencar is a very good and capable artist, but the (again Carey rises) woman on the cover looks very much like Phedre. I also like the UK & Australian covers more.

I liked the writing style it was smooth, and had weight without being heavy - it reminded me of a creamy custard. Sorry but I actually feel the writing when I am reading and that was the best way to describe what I felt.

I don't mind first person narrative - it is limiting, but it can also be intensly riveting. In this case it seems that she is either omniscient, or writing about past events. The blurb on the back talks about an "Evil Stepmother, and Kidnapping, and Fighitng to Save her Brothers", but she starts the book with her childhood. She intimates that she knows what is to come in the future, several times.

I generally don't like books where the POV character talks about the story in the past - I find it static and I always feel that the past stuff is filler and the real story is ahead somewhere and the reader is being kept from it. I felt that here, even though I liked the tales of her brothers and how she grew up, and realize that it was required to build up their characters and relationship, and the connection to magic, nature and the land.

Hobb does first-person narrative very well, so does Stover, and all three (Marillier included) handle this very well.

Maybe my comparison to Carey was superficial, because as I'm further into the book, Marillier is showing out to be a more deft and capable writer, she sustains a much stronger story throughout the book.

My first problem arises with the stepmother. I don't think she was really fleshed out. I can't decide if she was a human woman with access to evil magic, or an evil fairy taking human form. I suppose she may have been left blurry to add to the mystery. But I could never figure out her motivation. If she were a human woman and wanted to be lady of the manner, a house with seven mostly grown children doesn't seem to be a good bet for where you want to invest your time in trying to usurp it for yourself and your eventual children. She also seemed like the type who liked rich things, finery, and fun, and lots of courtiers fawning on her -and Sevenwaters was cash poor, isolated, and rather a dump in terms of style. It just never made any sense as to what she really wanted. If she were a fairy what was she after - there was no talk of gold, or magic items or anything else that they usually want.

Yes, so far, 420 pages in, still not enough about the Stepmother to make her more than almost a placeholder. Yes the dread the seven children felt for here was real and palpable, but not much else seems to have been don for her.

I noticed though that the author used people and events for the plot and then seemed to drop them when she thought she was done with them and I felt just left them hanging.

I didn't see so much of a problem with this, really. I see it as Sorcha moving on and not really having contact with those people.

Overall I really liked it. I think it was actually much better written than Carey's book and much more compelling in terms of the story.

Once again, FF, I think we are in strong agreement on this book. I hoped to enjoy it, I like it MUCH better than Carey's first book and I'm enjoying the book MUCH more than I expected.

There was only one passage/scene I felt was a little inconsistent with Sorcha's strong character throughout, though maybe on reflection, I'm rethinking it. Here goes, page 230 TOR MMPB (US)

My hands were not as deft as they had been, but all the same, it had been some time sicne I had spun or woven starwort, for I had neglected the task in my misery

Bold/underline my emphasis - I understand she's been miserable, but she is also desperate to save her brothers. Maybe this speaks to the true depths of her misery, but this little passage stuck out for me, Sorcha, to that point had been built up as a very strong and dedicated character I found it surprising she would abandon her task. I don't know, it just stuck with me.

 

[Rob B]

Forgot to mention, I did post about our discussion in Juliet Mariller's Q&A forum, she said she may pop in after she gets back from the Writing Conference she is attending and maybe some of her forum members may pop in and join in the discussion.

 

[magze]

Overall this is an excellent book . I think part of the reason I read it was because I remember reading this fairytale as a child and just wanted to see if it would still enchant me as an adult,and happy to say it did .My favourite character is Finbar .The stepmother comes back in the third book of the series ,you can read each one as a stand alone but they are more enjoyable if you read all three of the trilogy .

 

[FicusFan]

I didn't see so much of a problem with this, really. I see it as Sorcha moving on and not really having contact with those people. Once again, FF, I think we are in strong agreement on this book. I hoped to enjoy it, I like it MUCH better than Carey's first book and I'm enjoying the book MUCH more than I expected.

Yes Sorcha may have moved on but I as the reader didn't move on as completely as she did. Because the author did such a good job in setting things out, and developing characters, and events I wanted more completeness to them. Sort of like a follow through in a golf or tennis swing - you keep going after the important part (hitting the ball) until you complete what you are doing. The author set up the priest in the clearing, and once she finishes with him we know what happens to him. She doesn't just discard him the way she does with Red's mother or the little dog (until it popped back up). I realize there is a whole school of 'realism' out there that wants things to be undefined once the story moves on, to keep it more like real life - but I am not one of that ilk. I want to know what happens to those characters in a book (directly or through enough evidence to infer) who have made an impression on me, and to me she left several dangling badly and inconsistently with their prior character development.

There was only one passage/scene I felt was a little inconsistent with Sorcha's strong character throughout, though maybe on reflection, I'm rethinking it. Here goes, page 230 TOR MMPB (US)

Bold/underline my emphasis - I understand she's been miserable, but she is also desperate to save her brothers. Maybe this speaks to the true depths of her misery, but this little passage stuck out for me, Sorcha, to that point had been built up as a very strong and dedicated character I found it surprising she would abandon her task. I don't know, it just stuck with me.

I don't find it inconsistent at all. It is a symptom of deep depression and fits with her trauma and her emotional state. Perhaps the unrealistic part is that she ever got moving again, being that she was on her own and would probably have simply either frozen or starved due to inacitivy at everythng form eating, to washng to foraging for wood for the fire.

 

[Fola]

Greeting and comment from the author

Hi all, this is Juliet Marillier - I post on various forums under the name of Fola, a wise woman character in my newest book, The Dark Mirror.

It's interesting reading your comments on DoTF. It was my first novel and I am now writing number seven. My work has developed and changed quite a bit over the five years since I wrote DoTF, with a broader story arc and more balance between male and female characters. My newer books are still quite character based and deal with human journeys in a world that blends real history with folklore and magic.

DoTF is the only book I've written based on an existing fairy tale. Whoever said Lady Oonagh is rather one dimensional, as is Richard, was quite right. These are archetypal fairy tale characters, not intended to be more. They don't have deep motivations or complex psychology. My villains become more complicated and more real in my later books.

I also moved away from the first person narrative in all the books following the three Sevenwaters books. I found first person was great for getting under the skin of the protagonist and drawing the reader intimately into the story, but became difficult in later novels where I wanted to provide an insight into both male and female psychology and to be at the heart of scenes where certain characters just wouldn't have been. (It is difficult to put a 6th century woman in the middle of a battle. not impossible, but hard to make plausible!)

The comparison with Jacqueline Carey is rather surprising. I am a friend of hers (we toured the US together in 2001) and I really enjoy her work. Style-wise I don't think we are very similar at all. My language is much simpler than hers (at least, hers in the Kushiel books.) As someone said, the similarity is the first person narrative plus a strong female protagonist.

 

[Eldanuumea]

How awesome! Thanks for dropping in on our discussion, Ms. Marillier, it is a pleasure to "meet" you.
I am enjoying the discussion so much I think I will revisit the books, so I can join in with current perceptions.

 

[Rob B]

Ms. Mariller: Thanks for taking up on the invitation, dropping by and joining in! Was DoF your first attempt at a novel as well as your first published novel? It comes across as very well polished and very good, not only as a first novel, but as a novel, period. I’m looking forward to making my way through your subsequent novels.




I was a little surprised to see Simon come back into the fold. Not in a big way, but in my mind, I think the story could have played with our without his return, but works better with him inheriting the lands. Moreso, I was initially surprised by his feelings for Sorcha, but as more of his tale was revealed and Sorcha's comment about how he will never be happy with what he has, my assessment of Simon evened out - I see him as a conflicted character. Not that I have any siblings, but his reactions towards his older brother and family came across to me as those of the jealous sibling.

Originally posted by FicusFan
At the last minute she seems to save her sixth brother even as she breaks her vow. She is saved in the nick of time, and Simon is returned home and made whole. It just seemed too pat and cliched for me. It wasn't until this part that the book took on a 'romancy' tone for me.

The happy ending, “pat ending” didn’t bother me, and having read the fairy tale, at least the version I linked to above, prior to reading the book, I thought the way things played out in DoF as an extension of the fairy tale rang true and worked for me.

The whole part about the little dog coming and going while Sorcha was in Briton didn’t even occur to me until seeing it here.

 

[Eldanuumea]

I saw Wolfskin and immediately bought it, was wondering if it is the beginning of a new series?

The Sevenwaters trilogy was one of the first extended series I read after discovering the fantasy genre almost three years ago. I remember being delighted by an author taking such a beloved tale and building such a fully realized world around it.

 

[Eventine]

Wow! We've nearly had more discussion in five days than we got all last month.

I've finished up now so I'll now make a bit of a rambling commentary based on the book and some of the discussion so far:
First up - the cover/blurb. My copy has a comment by Australian Women's Weekly on it, which is one of those magazines read by middle aged women so they can catch up on all of the latest gossip on the royals and get new recipes for slice. Needless to say, as a young man I was quite aghast to be seen with a book that would be more happily marketed at my mother (OK, that's a massive exaggeration, but I think you get my point). This resulted in me going into the book with the expectation of a soppy romance. I was happy to find it wasn't.

In my first post I mentioned that only one moment had really appealed to me in the first half of the book - this was the first time the brothers came to visit after they were cursed. This made me realise that I was only really enjoying the moments when the brothers were present - Sorcha, as a character, didn't appeal to me as much as Finbar and Padriac. I think this began with her knowledge of herbcraft and healing - the knowledge and seriousness of the character for someone that age really didn't fit for me.
The section Fitz pointed out where she stops weaving also stood out for me, but it wasn't on its own. There were several times through out the novel where I get the impression she was on a go slow on the weaving, to the point where I actually said aloud "just finish the shirts already!".

As the story moved on, I'd just wait for "yet another bad thing" to happen. FF mentioned the use of foreshadowing by having the story written in first person as if the author was recounting a tale in the past. I thought that too many times we were told something bad was going to happen before it did - this reduced the impact for me.
I think first person can be a hard way to write - as FF mentioned earlier, sometimes the trap you can fall into is not seeing the secondary characters as much. This reminds me of a trick Robin Hobb uses by having her protagonist see what's happening elsewhere in his dreams.

The evil uncle was too over the top for my liking as well. If he'd had a handlebar moustache and twisted the ends while laughing maniacally I wouldn't have been surprised.

OK - after all that it probably looks like I hated the book. I didn't. I thought it was pretty well written for a first offering, but was just a bit too angst filled for my liking. I thought some of the secondary characters such as Ben and Finbar were well done and were what kept me interested.
I'll contemplate picking up the sequels, although I did think it was well contained enough to keep me happy with how it finished.

BTW - I feel rude having said everything above knowing Ms. Marillier could read it. All I can say is, it's not you, it's me

 

[FicusFan]

The whole part about the little dog coming and going while Sorcha was in Briton didn’t even occur to me until seeing it here.

I notice everything

Edit:

Ev: Don't worry you weren't rude, just honest. By the way what is "slice" when its at home ?

 

[Eventine]

I thought that might come up.

Slice is a style of flat cake that's cut into squares and usually eaten with tea or coffee.
Picture several housewives sitting around sucking down coffee, chewing on slice and gossiping.

To give you a US example, brownies would be part of the greater slice family.

I just googled "Vanilla slice", and wouldn't you know it the first recipe that appears is from Australian Women's Weekly - http://www.fareshare.net/slice-vanilla.html

One of my favourites is caramel slice - http://www.netcooks.com/recipes/Cookies/Caramel.Slice.html


OK gang. There's todays lesson on the role of food in Australian sub culture.