Philosophical sci fi?

Karl Schroeder

Karl Schroeder's Ventus (available for free here: http://www.kschroeder.com/my-books/ventus/free-ebook-version) is a great read. From a literary standpoint, it did an amazing job of folding hard SF back into fantasy. It also made a significant impact on the speculative realist school of philosopy. From Wikipedia:

Two of Schroeder's novels, Ventus and Lady of Mazes, explore themes that have recently become central to the self-identified speculative realism movement in philosophy. Although speculative realism was not labeled as a movement until 2007[citation needed] both Ventus (2000) and Lady of Mazes (2005) ask questions that are very similar to those posed by speculative realists such as Jane Bennett, Ian Bogost, Graham Harman, Quentin Meillassoux and Timothy Morton. Speculative realism places ontology at the center of philosophical inquiry, and Ventus and Lady of Mazes both interrogate ontology, inventing new forms of relationship both between subjects and objects, and between objects in the absence of subjects. A primary example of this form of invention is the idea of thalience explored in Ventus.

Thalience is a concept invented by Schroeder to explore a realm of entities that are not quite subjects, but not entirely objects either. As presented in the novel, the concept sometimes refers to a form of inquiry, specifically an attempt to determine whether non-human sentient systems are truly independent minds, or whether they are merely "parrots" that give back to human researchers what the researchers expect to hear.[citation needed] The novel says that the word was deliberately chosen as an allusion to "silent Thalia", the muse of Nature. However, Ventus also more consistently refers to thalience as a state of being.[citation needed] Entities are considered "thalient" if they succeed in developing their own categories for understanding the world.[2]

Lady of Mazes contains a critique of what Quentin Meillassoux has labeled correlationism. By constructing a potentially solipsistic world of privately constructed virtual realities, Schroeder is able again to create ambiguities in the relationship of subject to object that undermine both categories[citation needed].

 
Can you explain the nature of your web link? Is it a book?

Actually it is the beginning of a novel I am writing. But it does have two characters arguing educational philosophy and I wrote it months before this thread started.

I find all of the arguments about education in the net really disturbing. Most of the people claiming to be teachers give me the impression that they think kids exist to create jobs for them. I guess that is why almost none of them seem interested in the concept of a National Recommended Reading List. So my story has a neuroscientist educating kids behind the back of the educational system.

I expect a moderator to beat on me. :cool:

psik
 
A List?

Do you have said list? Too many variables IMO. High school? Limited to English authors?
 
Do you have said list? Too many variables IMO. High school? Limited to English authors?

There would probably have to be more than one list. The atheists could not agree with the Christians I am thinking about 10,000 books. 100 for kindergarten, 200 for 1st grade, 300 for 2nd grade, etc. through high school. That would be 9,100.

Limit it to English authors until one is completed. Minimize complexities. I would not know good chemistry and biology books. I would suggest:

The Tyranny of Words (1938) by Stuart Chase
http://www.anxietyculture.com/tyranny.htm
http://archive.org/details/tyrannyofwords00chas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9H1StY1nU8

The Screwing of the Average Man (1974) by David Hapgood
http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/rape10.shtml
http://www.amazon.com/screwing-average-man-David-Hapgood/dp/B0006W84KK

The Accounting Game: Basic Accounting Fresh From the Lemonade Stand
http://www.exceltip.com/book-1570713960.html
http://www.fool.com/personal-financ...-book-review-quotthe-accounting-gamequot.aspx

The first book relates to Heinlein in connection with Korzybski and General Semantics.

The curious thing about this society is that double-entry accounting is 200 years older than Shakespeare but most high schools require 4 years of English Lit but know accounting. But then everyone is supposed to go out and get jobs and manage their money. So now we have economic problems. Surprise, surprise. Things fall apart when the rip offs get too great.

What did Heinlein say about competent men able to do accounts?

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." — Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

Our schools dribble out information and waste time on junk.

psik
 
The Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons is by far the best fit for what you need of the books I have read. It is amazing to me how the series is able to create a fairly interesting and involving science fiction back drop while also doing such a great job of characterizing the human condition. Make no mistake, even though it has a "space opera" (sort of) kind of frame work, the story is mostly about the thoughts and circumstances of a select individuals who represent a larger piece of the overall experiences of mankind. It is told incredibly well. I wouldn't be surprised if one day this series is taught in schools. I certainly would enjoy it much more than some of the crap I had to read simply because it supposedly captured the thoughts and perspectives of a generation or a people. In fact, most anything by Dan Simmons would probably be good for you to read.

Also, I hear Blindsight by Peter Watts is similar to what you want. I haven't read the book, only reviews though.




I finished Neuromancer when it first came out and was not impressed but then tried reading it later after it became a big thing and could not finish it. I still don't understand why it is a big deal.

I had a similiar experience as you. Perhaps I read it too late, or perhaps the effect was diminished by already being introduced to cyberpunk through other books like Altered Carbon, movies like Blade Runner, or games like Deus Ex. For whatever reason, my experience with the book was not as positive as most people's.
 
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It is amazing to me how the series is able to create a fairly interesting and involving science fiction back drop while also doing such a great job of characterizing the human condition.

That first story with the priest being tortured in an electrical fire storm said something about the human condition? I almost stopped reading it.

What I found odd was that the best story for me had the worst science. The woman getting younger and her parents raising her backwards. I found that very touching but the science ridiculous.

psik
 
I'm taking the entire series as a whole, not just the first story from the first book. That being said, yes, I did find that the priest's tale did say something about mankind. In fact, I found that most of the characters were able to demonstrate something greater than themselves about human existence. I find it odd that that "torture" is what you seemed to remember the most clearly when it would have been the last thing to come to my mind because there is just so much more to that story.

The woman getting younger and her parents raising her backwards. I found that very touching but the science ridiculous.

That was actually one of my least favorite stories of the bunch and the priest's story was, to me, one of the better ones. It's always interesting how opinions can differ like that.
 
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I'm taking the entire series as a whole, not just the first story from the first book.

I can't evaluate the series as a whole since didn't intend to read The Fall of Hyperion originally and then only read it because it is actually just the second half of a single book. I don't regard it as science fiction. I think of it is fantasy-horror.

That human condition stuff is what they say about Shakespeare. But he didn't live in a world with computers and jet planes. So now we have people who can't figure out if global warming is caused by human beings. The Laws of Physics do not care about the human condition but they can certainly affect it.

One of the curious things that a lot of science fiction seems to say about the human condition is that most humans are pretty stupid. Like:

It's Great to be Back by Robert Heinlein

Heinlein, Clarke and Poul Anderson all expressed the idea that the average human would not be allowed into space. It would cost too much and the environment would be too unforgiving of stupidity.

psik
 
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That human condition stuff is what they say about Shakespeare. But he didn't live in a world with computers and jet planes. So now we have people who can't figure out if global warming is caused by human beings. The Laws of Physics do not care about the human condition but they can certainly affect it.

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Global warming (for all the relevance it has here) should be hashed out by the qualified scientists whose expertise is in this area. Sure, the people have to accept their knowledge instead of dismissing it with conspiracy theories or head-in-sand retreats, but, other than that, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

If you're just lamenting the ignorance of the populace then almost everyone with any real knowledge is going to feel the same way. Human ignorance is by no means limited to science. As an economist, it annoys me how people in general will ignore proven models that can correctly predict the problems we have had, are having, and, assuredly, will have for the sake of something that fits their worldview better. It nags me how many of today's problems could be solved and prevented if everyone had a working knowledge of the basics of economics instead of looking for the politician or the paid shill to spout what they want to hear.

However, I'm sure everyone feels that way about their chosen field of study. I can see a writer saying that everyone being better readers and writers would allow them to empathize with others and to cooperate more effectively. I could even see a boxer saying that if everyone was a boxer there would be less violence because everyone would get it out in the ring. So on and so forth.

Anyways, back to the topic. It's possible that the term 'human condition' isn't the best phrase to describe what goes on the the books, but it is definitely an incredibly philosophical series that I think the TC would be very interested in.
 
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As an economist, it annoys me how people in general will ignore proven models that can correctly predict the problems we have had, are having, and, assuredly, will have for the sake of something that fits their worldview better. It nags me how many of today's problems could be solved and prevented if everyone had a working knowledge of the basics of economics instead of looking for the politician or the paid shill to spout what they want to hear.

ROFL

45 years after the Moon landing and economists don't talk about planned obsolescence. What does the world lose on the depreciation of automobiles every year?

http://toxicdrums.com/economic-wargames-by-dal-timgar.html

Science fiction did economics:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23197/23197-h/23197-h.htm

The Space Merchants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Merchants

Double-entry accounting is 200 years older than Shakspeare but no one suggests that it be mandatory in our high schools. Who has models based on everyone knowing accounting? What did Adam Smith say about enlightened self interest? But game theory works better if most of the players are kept ignorant.

psik
 
Double-entry accounting is 200 years older than Shakspeare but no one suggests that it be mandatory in our high schools.

The double-entry bookkeeping system isn't something that needs to be taught. It is intrinsically understood by individuals that interact with our physical universe (similar to "equal and opposite reactions"). If you mean accounting in general, then I can somewhat agree although the important parts of accounting can be taught by parents in a few hours.

No one is ever screwed by accounting itself which is simply a generally accepted way to record transactions. It isn't even universal among companies, much less industries, countries, or the world. What needs to be taught is macroeconomics which is where most people are being screwed today because (one reason out of many) is counter-intuitive to what is rightfully considered common sense in business and microeconomics. If there is anything being misinterpreted it is the inalienable Law of Scarcity which most people violate whether they realize it or not. Someone can consciously claim that they understand there are finite resources and a finite number of things mankind can do at a time, but then proceed to suggest courses of action which subtly violate this law.

45 years after the Moon landing and economists don't talk about planned obsolescence.

Economists definitely do talk about planned obsolescence, but I think you're mixing the spheres of business and economics. Planned obsolescence has to do with the consumer which has far more to do with the business side than the economics side which deals more with the philosophy of the overall system.

What does the world lose on the depreciation of automobiles every year?

A common misunderstanding (one corrected in the first course of Accounting 101) is that depreciation is a loss at all (assuming I am understand you when you say 'loss' which I'll admit I am having a hard time understanding). Depreciation is simply an accounting method meant to factor in:

1) Cost of acquiring and using an asset.
2) Salvage value.
3) Estimated useful life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depreciation#Accounting_concept

Notice how all of this deals with the cost of something, not some imaginary lost wealth because a car gets older and is artificially appraised for less. What value is lost in a cars' resell value (something entirely different) comes about because mankind in general agrees that a 2014 automobile is more valuable than a 2000 automobile even if that automobile had never been used. Sometimes even before you factor in anything other than its manufacture date. All of this comes about from voluntary human interaction. Some of that is a result of a consumer culture (not a conspiracy, just human nature), but the vast majority of it is the result of other physical factors.

Again, I'm not sure I'm even talking about the same thing you are since I honestly do not understand what you are saying and this is all irrelevant to the topic at hand.
 
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The Hyperion novels are a touchy subject for some people. I hesitate to delve into them, but as far as philosophy in scifi, there was one concept in those nevels that really impressed me.

The idea that if you put enough people in pain at the same time, a timeless pain, then God might hear their cries and feel their pain and come to rescue them.

When that was revealed in the story, it gave me a pause. It really was ingenious. It is twisted logic from a twisted mind, but it really impressed me.
 
A subject near and dear to my heart (philosophical science fiction, that is).

My favorite science fiction of a strongly philosophical bent:

David Zindell ~ Neverness and the sequel trilogy A Requiem for Homo Sapiens, beginning with A Broken God. Zindell, in my view, is criminally underrated. His books are just packed with philosophical, often quasi-mystical, ramblings, speculations and inquiries.

Frank Herbert ~ Dune. I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned.

Dan Simmons ~ Hyperion Cantos. Another great, dense, philosophical work.

Philip K Dick ~ Anything and everything.

Ursula K Le Guin ~ The Dispossessed and other works. Le Guin is just amazing.

Ian Watson ~ Alien Embassy and others. Not so well known these days, he's written a bunch of great philosophical scifi.

Roger Zelazny ~ Lord of Light and others. Best known for his Amber series, I think his other books of the late 60s, early 70s are much better.

AA Attanasio ~ Radix ~ Very cool book. I believe there are four in the series, but the narrative isn't tightly related, more thematically.

Robert Charles Wilson ~ Spin. Excellent book, with two sequels.

There are others (Arthur C Clarke, Brian Aldiss, Octavia E Butler, etc), but those are my favorites. I think if you want the most "philosophical bang" for your buck, go with Zindell or Simmons.

p.s. Le Guin's Earthsea books are deeply, but subtly philosophical. Or I suppose they are more spiritual-psychological than outright philosophical.
 
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I would argue for the Foundation novels as well. The ending of Second Foundation is heavily philosophical, essentially a defense of social science as a foil to concepts of physical sciences. The last 30 or so pages of Second Foundation are really mind blowing, in my personal opinion.
 
A common misunderstanding (one corrected in the first course of Accounting 101) is that depreciation is a loss at all (assuming I am understand you when you say 'loss' which I'll admit I am having a hard time understanding). Depreciation is simply an accounting method meant to factor in:

1) Cost of acquiring and using an asset.
2) Salvage value.
3) Estimated useful life.

Here is an economist claiming to talk about the depreciation of computers:

http://econweb.ucsd.edu/~vramey/research/Computers_published.pdf

Notice all of the complicated mathematics. What most economists and ordinary people will not notice is that there is not mention of Passive Backplanes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backplane

The trouble with technology is that the quantity in which it is manufactured has considerable effect on the price but the design affects how easy it is to upgrade in the field. If IBM had introduced a passive backplane design in 1980 then the computer industry would be significantly different today.

A passive backplane would have allowed users to pull out the CPU and memory and replace them while keeping the case and power supply and all of the other components. The original purchase price would be somewhat higher but repairs and subsequent upgrades would be cheaper since they would not involve replacing the entire computer. Economists mostly use verbal BS to make the simple complicated.

Most science fiction gloss over this aspect of reality but it is actually important to society and the future of technology.

Cost of Living (1952) by Robert Sheckley
https://senjibqa.wordpress.com/2011/06/17/cost-of-living/

psik
 
I would argue for the Foundation novels as well. The ending of Second Foundation is heavily philosophical, essentially a defense of social science as a foil to concepts of physical sciences. The last 30 or so pages of Second Foundation are really mind blowing, in my personal opinion.

A curious aspect of the Foundation Series in relation to Psychohistory is that it was written before the advent of television. But if you read research about the psychology of Liberals and Conservatives and how they are selective about what television they watch then it is obvious that television is a factor in the Psychohistory of reality.

To me television seems to have become more stupid since the 60s.

Society too!?

psik
 
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A curious aspect of the Foundation Series in relation to Psychohistory is that it was written before the advent of television. But if you read research about the psychology of Liberals and Conservatives and how they are selective about what television they watch then it is obvious that television is a factor in the Psychohistory of reality.

To me television seems to have become more stupid since the 60s.

Society too!?

psik

That's an interesting point. Especially considering that Seldon's setup of both Foundations is completely reliant on the cognitive dissonance of the First Foundation.
 
@psikeyhackr:

Computers are already sold at an incredibly low margin decreasing the cost more would not benefit the consumer as much as you think, assuming all of what you say is true. You've got to understand that there is a significant portion of the Thai and Chinese computer hardware manufacturing industry that generates absolutely zero profit and only exists because of a subsidies which are meant to keep the people employed. Decreasing costs would make it so that private entities could not generate a profit and would, therefore, require government entities to provide these things such as with some forms of cheap energy. You do not want that.

Sure, you might be able to make it so that computers are easier to upgrade which is good in and of itself for the consumer (I build my own computers too) but it wouldn't help in the way you think. A better example would have been the automobile industry exemplified by the problems of Tesla motors trying to sell directly to consumers for much, much cheaper but is then blocked by *gasp* Republican *gasp* politicians. I mean in no way to imply that there isn't corruption or anything like that, but if you believe there is some kind of conspiracy across industries then you are wrong. For example, in computers, simply look at the prospectus of any hardware manufacturer or designer and you'll see that they don't make much profit margin at all. The only ones that makes money are the name brands like Samsung and Apple which use other parts from, say, Qualcomm, who operates on a very low profit margin, and don't make much of their own.

CPU and memory and replace them while keeping the case and power supply and all of the other components.

That all being said, I'm not following you here. You can already keep a case and power supply after upgrading CPU and memory. I have a power supply from 2004 that I am still using (probably at risk) and a large computer case that I got with my first personally built computer in 1998. Most times when a computer cannot be upgraded, it is because the motherboard does not support the CPU or the graphics card (even rarer the memory). It could be that Intel and AMD are making it so that they have to buy new motherboards to buy CPUs, but I doubt it, since they make little if any profit off of motherboards, and would benefit from more people buying more CPUs. Also, the back plane itself has its own limitations mentioned on the Wikipedia that may make traditional motherboard architectures necessary.

Either way, I doubt it would make as much difference as you think since the vast majority of the populace is scared to touch the inside of their own computer. The people that can put together a computer, do, and those who can't, go pay outrageous prices for pre-built PCs. Making computers easier to upgrade would only help a small amount. Consoles are a perfect example, its easy to make them upgradeable but the average person still has a problem doing it. Sure, I can say it annoys me that people continue to buy consoles when without exclusive games they basically inferior in every way, but the bottom line is that they are simpler and that appeals to the average person. Nothing else matters and that is the core reason for most inefficiencies like you (assuming you are correct) have picked up on. No conspiracy, just division of labor and human action which makes it so that not everyone has the time to learn everything, even if it would help efficiency greatly. Still, the market has changed since just a few years ago. I can now have certain online PC builders build a computer, give me a warranty, and tech support, for cheaper than I can order the parts from newegg.com and put them together myself. Again, subsidies in Asian economies and lower exchange rates and lower wage rates. Competition sorts it out, is what I am saying.

An even better example would have been razors. It used to be that someone could keep a razor most of their lives because it is fairly easy to care for a razor and to manufacture a razor so that it could last for decades with the kinds of wear and tear of shaving. Now, you buy a pack of razors and they last a couple of shaves and then you throw them out. Part of that is, yes, simply because *gasp* the company must make a profit or there will be no razors, period, but it's also because people stopped wanting to take care of their razors and prefer to simply use and discard. The market reflects that. There was no meeting of evil, greedy Illuminati god-like entities to determine this.

In summation, to an extent, I can agree with you, but, much like in regards to free trade or business practices in general, no one listens to economists anyways, it's all political, so you can't blame us for these problems, if that's what you were trying to say. Either way, these kinds of these are not generally what economists deal with anyways. Economists are deal with the overall system which makes the study much more like, say, history, philosophy, or sociology, than about microeconomic business transactions. This is the last thing I will say on the subject. This is too good of a topic and too interesting of a forum to ruin.
 
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