Philosophically speaking...

Semantically, an atheist can be a deist or an animist, since it's the existence of a theistic deity that is being rejected. In my own case, I call myself an agnostic because I don't know if there is a spiritual dimension to existence. Some days, I can posit a deistic entity that doesn't take much account of our doings, just as we don't take much account of the bacteria in our guts. Other times, I lean toward reincarnation and the idea that each life is a voluntary exercise of some kind, though the purpose escapes me.

I find it very hard to accept the concept of a judgmental deity who rarely communicates with us, and then only via obscure individuals in remote places who wander around telling stories to anyone who will listen, without bothering to accumulate even a few scribes who will write the stories down. To me, that's just too much underachievement.
 
But there's no REASON for me to accept their claim. Nor is there anything for me to dispel, because those are just ideas. They're concepts. Because I don't accept those claims does not mean I have some "faith" in the opposite idea. There's nothing "unknowable" to disprove. Rather, the person making the claim should be providing some proof.
I don't disagree with you. The only conflict here is whether we are agreeing on what the proper use of the terms are, not the underlying ideas. I simply wouldn't label what you're describing as "atheism". And I could certainly be wrong about the way I understand that term.
 
Atheism is also a faith.

I agree. Atheism categorically affirms 'There is no such thing as a God' and then is unable to bring forward any compelling arguments to prove it. The contemporary scientific method refuses to consider anything that cannot be empirically observed. Scientifically measurable causes must lead to scientifically measurable effects before there is any possibility of scientific certitude, but God cannot be scientifically measured so any causes that point to a divine cause are automatically disregarded.

But then it works both ways. Science cannot disprove God's existence either since, again, it cannot evaluate him. To affirm the non-existence of God is to make a leap of faith that is not built on any scientific certitude, hence - in this optic - not provable. Agnosticism is more logical. We can't prove or disprove, so we don't know either way.

Andrew, I'll get back to you. I need to bring a pile of data to the table but right now I have a job to hold down. :(
 
I don't disagree with you. The only conflict here is whether we are agreeing on what the proper use of the terms are, not the underlying ideas. I simply wouldn't label what you're describing as "atheism". And I could certainly be wrong about the way I understand that term.
Well said.

The reason (and it's an understandable one) that atheism is sometimes labelled a "faith" as that, for a religious believer, their system of belief colours their perception of reality and themself in an extremely powerful way; it's not surprising that they would expect a contrary position to manifest a similar weight. However, this is an imposition of their type of worldview; it simply isn't an inherent feature of disbelief, in anything, just as the furniture in your home doesn't leave a screaming vacuum in mine for not being there.

As @Matthew Hughes notes, agnosticism or other non-theistic concepts may also be shared in the atheist's mind when s/he contemplates the ineffable -- but we don't have to conflate the two.

@Justin Swanton, a thought experiment: you announce that you've just had fantastic breakup-and-rebound sex with Brangelina (pick your half). I do not have to posit an affermative counter belief to dismiss your claim - I can just "not believe you". Nor does my disbelief have to dominate my thoughts in some tangible way from that point on. There may be implications I can make as a result of the dialogue we shared, thoughts which, if articulated, amount to "Justin didn't have Sex with Brangie"... but they do not critically define my concept of the world, and if you hadn't made the claim I'd never have had them at all. That's the difference.
 
@Justin Swanton, a thought experiment: you announce that you've just had fantastic breakup-and-rebound sex with Brangelina (pick your half). I do not have to posit an affermative counter belief to dismiss your claim - I can just "not believe you". Nor does my disbelief have to dominate my thoughts in some tangible way from that point on. There may be implications I can make as a result of the dialogue we shared, thoughts which, if articulated, amount to "Justin didn't have Sex with Brangie"... but they do not critically define my concept of the world, and if you hadn't made the claim I'd never have had them at all. That's the difference.

Choose another example and we'll continue the discussion. Cool?
 
No need -- that one makes my point. But if you like, you can substitute "rebound sex" with "tea and biscuits" and "Brangelina" with "Bertrand Russell". I can't imagine why you'd want to do that, but...

...well, actually, I can, but I'd prefer to expand my schedule and do both.
 
The language "problem" is that there are people who actively believe that there cannot be a God, but we don't have a discreet term for that belief other than "atheist".
 
I agree. Atheism categorically affirms 'There is no such thing as a God' and then is unable to bring forward any compelling arguments to prove it.

I consider myself an atheist, but I don't categorically affirm that "there's no such thing as a god". You'll certainly hear me use that line on occasion, but that's a practical leave-me-alone-already type of utterance rather than a statement of faith. You may not know what's it like to live as an atheist among theists (Roman Catholic Christians with a range of protestant minorities in my case). I don't suffer any discrimation or hostility. But there's just so much in the daily speech and interactions. When you're feeling depressed people will suggest you pray or talk to a priest. But when you're depressed is the last time you'll want to put up with that stuff, because parsing God-speak takes energy you don't have. So you say "God doesn't exist," and you mean it, and people get it, and you have your peace and can do what actually works for you. That's just one example.

I used to call myself an agnostic in opposition to an atheist for a while, because I bought that line about "atheism being a faith, too". I call myself an "atheist" in addition to an agnostic now, because I realised that the atheist-is-a-faith line is really just another instance where you - the atheist - let the theists determine how to talk about the topic. It's not a faith. It's just daily life. There may or may not be a faith attached to it. Secular humanists believe that it's special to be human and that certain imperatives follow from that (rational thought, empathy...). Naturalists believe that natural laws can explain most of the things that matter. Materialists believe another thing, nihilists believe that everything's equally worthless and so on. They're all atheists because what they have in common is that they don't believe in God. But they disagree with each other as much (and in some cases more) than with theists.

The amount of energy atheists expand on denying the existance of God is proportional to the perceived social dominance of theism; the lack of God is rather irrelevant to their personal philosophies, whatever they might be. If theists think that atheism is a faith, it's because they take God so granted that they think the lack of God in a persons philosophy or faith is the most important thing about that, when it's really quite irrelevant and wouldn't be there at all if theism wasn't so dominant.

Whether I call myself an atheist or an agnostic depends on context. If it's about daily life (see depression-example above) I'll call myself an atheist, because it's the lack of God in my life that's responsible for prayers being a burden rather than a help. When it's about "proof or disproof of God" I call myself an agnostic, because it's about how we know (or don't) that God exists. It's a matter of context.

The contemporary scientific method refuses to consider anything that cannot be empirically observed. Scientifically measurable causes must lead to scientifically measurable effects before there is any possibility of scientific certitude, but God cannot be scientifically measured so any causes that point to a divine cause are automatically disregarded.

There's no such thing as "scientific certitude", though there are certainly scientists who are certain. However the scientific method is all about explanations lasting as long as there aren't any better ones. It's why both naturalists and theists can do science. It's a handy method for a lot of topics, just not for proving or disproving God (or gods).

But then it works both ways. Science cannot disprove God's existence either since, again, it cannot evaluate him.

Exactly. It works both ways. I remember, during the early stages of the neuroscience craze, someone created a metaphysical experience in the lab, I think through brain stimulation. I saw a discussion on TV, and a neuroscientist thought that this has disproved God. No. How? Let's say God exists and causes a vision. Wouldn't that show up in the respective brain? If so, why shouldn't we be able to create that in the lab. If we could stimulate the brain in a way that makes people say the word "cat", nobody would come to the conclusion that people can't really speak - it's all in the brain. That's nonsense. Science can't talk about God, and it's my impression (though I may be wrong about that) that if you define God in away that science can deal with Him, He'd stop to be God.

I'll also note that I'm an atheist specifically in opposition to Christian/Judaist/Muslim monotheism (which is culturally and historically connected). I also don't believe in say Shiva, Zeus, Amaterasu, or Quetzalcoatl, but I'm unlikely to have to defend myself against their intrusion into my private lives. If those Gods count, too, then monotheists are also atheists with respect to a myriad of Gods. But (western) atheism is really a counter-movement to Monotheist dominance.

Atheism isn't a faith so much, as it's a shared fate of people who have vastly different faiths from each other (or none at all). And saying that atheism is a faith amounts to saying that what's most important about, say, secular humanism or naturalism is that they don't believe in God, when that's really little more than a footnote. There are plenty of atheist believe systems, but atheism itself isn't one.

I realise this is sort of off topic, but it's an irritant and posting scratches that itch. For what it's worth, I don't look at we're-all-living-in-a-simulation much differently than at theism. But it's certainly an atheist concept (at least if you assume that God didn't provide the ware).
 
The language "problem" is that there are people who actively believe that there cannot be a God, but we don't have a discreet term for that belief other than "atheist".
Some people use "antitheist" for exactly this purpose, I think Dawkins may be amongst them.
I realised that the atheist-is-a-faith line is really just another instance where you - the atheist - let the theists determine how to talk about the topic.
...
The amount of energy atheists expand on denying the existance of God is proportional to the perceived social dominance of theism; the lack of God is rather irrelevant to their personal philosophies, whatever they might be.
...
Whether I call myself an atheist or an agnostic depends on context. If it's about daily life (see depression-example above) I'll call myself an atheist, because it's the lack of God in my life that's responsible for prayers being a burden rather than a help. When it's about "proof or disproof of God" I call myself an agnostic, because it's about how we know (or don't) that God exists. It's a matter of context.
...
And saying that atheism is a faith amounts to saying that what's most important about, say, secular humanism or naturalism is that they don't believe in God, when that's really little more than a footnote. There are plenty of atheist believe systems, but atheism itself isn't one.
Great post, these are just the bits I especially agree with.
I realise this is sort of off topic, but it's an irritant and posting scratches that itch. For what it's worth, I don't look at we're-all-living-in-a-simulation much differently than at theism. But it's certainly an atheist concept (at least if you assume that God didn't provide the ware).
It's not so much "off topic" as "THE off topic".
 
Last edited:
But it's certainly an atheist concept (at least if you assume that God didn't provide the ware).
That's kind of a strange conclusion. If anything, you could also look at it as a promotion: God used to be in charge of the universe - now God is the head of a constantly growing number of universes. The fact that there are franchisees and subcontractors involved doesn't actually get anyone off the hook of being under one umbrella.

Which is not a stand I'm taking one way or another. I decided I was agnostic in part out of respect to the fact that there has never been a culture that formed without a creed or a population that managed to permanently reject some sort of faith. It is wired into us, and you have to actively opt out as an individual. That proves nothing, but it is a caution that any 'unbeliever' is likely outnumbered.
 
That's kind of a strange conclusion. If anything, you could also look at it as a promotion: God used to be in charge of the universe - now God is the head of a constantly growing number of universes. The fact that there are franchisees and subcontractors involved doesn't actually get anyone off the hook of being under one umbrella.

I wasn't really trying to talk about the logical/philosophical angle and compatibility. I was making an empirical claim: I think the we're-all-living-in-a-simulation concept is (outside of fiction and fun) more attractive to atheists, because I think that concept fulfills a similar need. I have no idea if Bostrom or Musk are atheists or not; I do know Belvedere (the article's author) is a theist and he argues against it. Maybe that's what led me to that conclusion?

Anyway, that's a claim that's easy to check: if a majority (say more than 2/3, 60 %'s not enough) of people who find believe this concept to be either true or likely are atheists, I'm right. Less than that, and I'm wrong. I don't have the numbers, so it's really just a wild guess.
 
If anything, you could also look at it as a promotion: God used to be in charge of the universe - now God is the head of a constantly growing number of universes. The fact that there are franchisees and subcontractors involved doesn't actually get anyone off the hook of being under one umbrella.
This reminds me of that quote used in Cosmos...oh, who said it? Found it: Geordano Bruno. Here it is in all its glory:
Your god is too small.
The point is that both theist and Musk can come up with all sorts of ideas, but in the end they (we) can only come up with theories that fit how we understand the world right now. So, back in the day, someone came up with a god to explain the universe. And guess what, he looks a lot like we do. Even acts like us, too. Same with the Greek and Roman gods. All the Hindu gods get mixed up with various animals because they were a huge part of their lives (both the success and failure). But notice how truly unimaginative they are. All the gods are just a hodge-podge of what already exists.

Same with Elon Musk's theory of the universe. A virtual reality? Is he serious? Just because that's all the craze right now? Pluuueaze. :rolleyes:

The universe is so big, and there's so much out there, we'll never know all about it. Our imagination has a hard time thinking beyond what we already know, but I'm sure we'll try - because that's in human nature. :)
 
I was making an empirical claim: I think the we're-all-living-in-a-simulation concept is (outside of fiction and fun) more attractive to atheists, because I think that concept fulfills a similar need.
Well that's interesting. Atheists that reject the idea of an old man with a long beard directing things from a cloud, but embrace everything being run by a fat, Mountain Dew swilling IT guy?
 
embrace everything being run by a fat, Mountain Dew swilling IT guy?
Yeah. I think the only reason why anyone (why we) talk about this virtual reality reality thing of his is exactly because he's popular.

I mean, he is changing the world and all. Plus he's got friggin' SPACE ROCKETS.

(What have you done lately? o_O Joking, of course.)
 
The language "problem" is that there are people who actively believe that there cannot be a God, but we don't have a discreet term for that belief other than "atheist".

You can always use the term humanist - which is how I'd describe myself, as well as atheist.
 
In reply to the various arguments in the thread so far, I would say:- it's more important to decide what the human condition is than to whether atheism is definitely true or just beyond reasonable doubt. Focus on what is, not what isn't.
 
Yeah. I think the only reason why anyone (why we) talk about this virtual reality reality thing of his is exactly because he's popular.

And because it makes a lot of sense. When we're spending centuries travelling between stars in the future, we're not going to be just sitting there twiddling our thumbs. We simply have no way of telling whether we're in a real world or a high-quality simulation. We can't even really define what 'real world' would mean.

I seem to remember Iain Banks saying in one of his Culture novels that his AIs spent much of their time building virtual realities because it was more fun than the real world.
 
When we're spending centuries travelling between stars in the future, we're not going to be just sitting there twiddling our thumbs.
Are we twiddling our thumbs right now? Do people living in a large spaceship really have such unfulfilling existences compared to people living in a city or town?

There are some potentially huge downsides to virtual living.
 

Sponsors


We try to keep the forum as free of ads as possible, please consider supporting SFFWorld on Patreon


Your ad here.
Back
Top