POLL: Is Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun Fan. or SF....please read post first

[Erfael]

After a discussion with Brys in another thread I'm really curious how people would categorize Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I'm posting this in both the Fantasy and the Sci-fi forums and ask that you only answer in the forum that you most identify with. If you read mostly sci-fi, put your answer in sci-fi. If you read mostly fantasy, put it on the fantasy side. If you read equal amounts of both, put it on both sides. Also, feel free to say why you answered one way or the other, but try to answer before reading other people's reasons. I'm interested in seeing if there's an breakdown between what people usually read and how they see BotNS and also how far through the books they are and whether that makes a difference.

 

[Mugwump]

I think it’s a true hybrid: Science fiction in Fantasy’s clothes. BOTS pays heed to the tropes of Fantasy employing traditional props such as swords, sorcery and strange creatures, but these are implicitly (and occasionally explicitly) rationalized in scientific / pseudoscientific terms. Mysterious, gothic castles are in fact decaying spacecraft. Father Inire’s mirror – a matter transporter whilst the monstrous cacogens are common-or-garden extraterrestrial visitors.

For all the Christian (Catholic) symbolism and allegory, I think the book is surprisingly skeptical, almost atheistic. Wolfe treads the same boards Erich von Däniken did years earlier with the argument: Technology to the technologically ignorant = the magic of the Gods.

 

[Yobmod]

I would agree with Mugwump, if i hadn't read Urth...

Spoilers:






The powers that Severian develops, his becoming the new sun, and the claw of the conciliator all have a mystical explanation. No scientific (nor a futuristic pseudo-scientific) is ever given or even hinted at.

In New sun we eventually find out that the claw of the conciliator is actually just a thorn that gets soaked in Severians blood. At some point in the past its encased in some kind of glass, but science is never used to explain its magical properties.

So i would say its fantasy using the tropes of science fantasy

Edit: and its one of the best books i've ever read!

 

[Mugwump]

I would agree with Mugwump, if i hadn't read Urth...

I haven't. And I'm not reading anything else you've written lest the whole thing be given away.

 

[Yobmod]

Which of the various tags is thee one for spoilers? I'll edit it in when i find out.

 

[emohawk]

I haven't. And I'm not reading anything else you've written lest the whole thing be given away.

I haven't read Urth yet either, though it's on my shelf waiting for the right moment. I want to read the first 4 books again before I do, though at my current reading pace they'd take me about 6 months to get through, alas.

 

[JonLaidlow]

Well it isn't an atheistic book - Wolfe is a devout Catholic.

So I think it is SF with added religion. Your view of religion may well push you over to the "fantasy" side of the argument. The fact remains that it is set far into the future, where technology has become indistinguishable from magic, and science fiction ideas and objects are described as if they are fantasy - the tall towers of the Citadel are the remains of spaceships, for example.

Jonathan

 

[RustyRed]

Well it isn't an atheistic book - Wolfe is a devout Catholic.

So I think it is SF with added religion. Your view of religion may well push you over to the "fantasy" side of the argument. The fact remains that it is set far into the future, where technology has become indistinguishable from magic, and science fiction ideas and objects are described as if they are fantasy - the tall towers of the Citadel are the remains of spaceships, for example.

Jonathan

Yeah, I agree with that. It's science-fantasy in which the fantastic is given a science-fictional rationale and the scientific is presented fantastically. The whole things turns out to be governed by a complex series of theological analogies and yes, your view of those analogies and their value will determine which way you go in deciding whether the series is essentially fantasy or SF.

A truly great book and, yes, I've read "Urth" and pretty well everything else Wolfe has ever published.

Rusty Red

 

[Yobmod]

But surely a fictional religion that turns out to be true (in the books universe) makes it a fantasy.
eg. American gods is fantasy even tho many of the characters are gods that at some point in history were believed to be real (and could be real for all i know).
and Loads of books have magical powers given by god/gods, but the fact that religion is involved doesn't make them less fantastic, does it?

so, (SPOILERS):

the fact that Severian's (and the Claw's) magical powers are facilitated by God / an angel / an alien doesn't mean they are less magical.




I suppose his powers could have a futuristic scientific basis that the reader is never informed about, but surely that can be said about all fantasies.

Maybe middle earth is just future earth and Hobbits are a genetically engineered slave race that escaped? And the ring of power is actually a peice of nanotech machinery that exerts a field mediated by as yet unidentified sub-atomic particles?

If something is left completely unexplained i generally consider it fantasy - although i accept that Mr. Wolfe may have intended it to be SF.

 

[Erfael]

Maybe middle earth is just future earth and Hobbits are a genetically engineered slave race that escaped? And the ring of power is actually a peice of nanotech machinery that exerts a field mediated by as yet unidentified sub-atomic particles?

Have you read Dan Simmons' Ilium? This is essentially what he does to the Trojan War, gives everything a scientific explanation, which I found to be very interesting because if you look at Homers version you have what looks like fantasy and if you take Simmons' version you have what appears to be science fiction, which accentuates the old quote that sufficiently advanced science looks like magic. From the soldier's perspective in the Trojan War the gods use magic. From a futuristic observer's perspective they use nanotech and flying vehicles and such....very interesting.

 

[Yobmod]

Have you read Dan Simmons' Ilium?

Thanks for the reccomend, i have illium but (still) havn't read it. I've been waiting til funds ollow olympus to be bought.

 

[JonLaidlow]

But surely a fictional religion that turns out to be true (in the books universe) makes it a fantasy.

..snip...

I'm not sure it is a fictional religion, so much as that Christian themes pervade the novel and can be seen refracted in the religions depicted. The idea of a saviour who is also a mortal man is the most obvious. Even the redemption shown in URTH OF THE NEW SUN could have an SF explanation (lots of discussion of white holes etc etc)

 

[Yobmod]

well its not a real world religion. There are similarities to christianity, but at least as many differences as between real world religions.

But, even if the religion was christianity, novels about new messiahs or the 2nd coming (3rd coming in BotNS?) are generally considered fantasy.
Eg. Master & Margarita has the devil in, but is fantasy even tho nothing happens that some christians wouldn't see as impossible.

An the fact that the New Sun will be brought (ignited?) by a 'white fountain' doesn't explain Severians magical powers!