September BOTM: Beauty by Sheri S. Tepper

[Erfael]

Discuss!!!

 

[Nimea]

Since I wasn't in the mood to participate in the last discussion (shame on me, but I tried several times, failing to be able to type anything), I better write something on this book right now.

I like Beauty. Tepper's language caught me right away - I haven't read anything by her before, I always wanted to. Now I want to read some more.
It's not as if the book is perfect. I think it's good, but there are some things that might trigger interesting discussions for various reasons.

What impressed me was the change of Beauty's voice from the young loquacious girl to the matured woman. Her time in the 1990s wasn't described in as much detail as the rest of her visits of various times and places, but nonetheless it made you realize how it changed her. This was a very interesting effect.

Unfortunately, the story dragged on too long. The drive was suddenly gone, but I am not sure at what point.

Some random thoughts (and asking for comments by others):

- it still irritates me a bit that Carabosse comments on Beauty's intelligence or lack thereof at the beginning;

- I liked Carabosses comments and still am not sure that I liked her change of role during the story; her comments disappeared and we were left with only the few descriptions we get through Beauty's eyes. I somehow felt like there was something missing

- Christianity and its use of magic . . . like a side blow and I think this is something to chew on. Not because I am religious but anyway.

- and not only Christianity, also her comments on birth control and abortion; explainable because of the rape and its result, and yet . . . It made me remember that I once heard Tepper called a feminist. (Now this all sounds a bit weird, and I don't think it says what I mean. It's not as if I do not agree with some of her opinions or that I myself wasn't called a feminist by some for nothing - it's just interesting and one of the things that I remember most about the book and needed to mention. Any thoughts?)

- at times this story was really dark; I felt somewhat ill at ease - and I am still not sure if the ending was satisfying. In the first moment I indeed felt hope. Somehow relieved. But some time after finishing the book I started to wonder the overall plot, the composition and everything.

That's all for now.

 

[FicusFan]

I read Beauty and enjoyed it at the start and at the end. The middle dragged a little. It was unfortunate that I read this right after the book for the SF group, because that was so fabulous this book suffered a bit by comparison.

I liked the diary entries at the start. I enjoyed the shortness and the fact that it was to the point. I didn't mind the comments by the secret fairy aunt, but thought that she should have fessed up much sooner to Beauty who she was and what was going on.

I liked how all the fairy tales were linked together and were part of Beauty's family.

I didn't really like the future trip, the whole thread didn't really work for me in terms of a story. I have read 3 or 4 of Tepper's books and like her. I have heard from others that she uses her fiction to push her political and social agendas (which I pretty much agree with so it isn't an issue of differing politics) but this is the first time I have experienced it myself. I really felt that her themes and messages were interfereing with the telling of a good story. I also felt that the characters were not real well developed - I didn't care much about what happened to most of them.

I also didn't like her trip to the world that disappeared, to fairy or to the dangerous enchanted kingdom. I felt it slowed the story down and it didn't really engage me.

I liked the the parts when Beauty is home best, and at the end as an old woman, and is trying to save everything. I cared about her and the characters then.

I thought it was too long and had too many boring bits, or places where the story was worn away and you just got her preaching about the future and the dangers of where we are going.

I thought there were some interesting points for discussion: How it seemed that humans have lost hope/magic and have become callous to everything that isn't some commodity; how fairy with no earthiness has become shallow and brittle and just as destructive. For real people I think she is talking about a lack of balance between the mundane and the mysterious. Too much of one attribute or the other and destruction will eventually result.

Funny I just finished reading it within the week, yet it is already starting to fade.

 

[Erfael]

Strange, Ficus and I are in agreement on both books this month.

I generally liked this book, but wasn't totally thrilled with it. Since I am pretty much in agreement, I'll just touch on some other points.


As far as the non-"home" sections of the book being less appealing: I felt this during my read, as well. Though in thinking about it, I wonder if it wasn't a stylistic attempt to make the reader feel more attached to the "home" setting, the "beautiful" setting, and less attached to the other settings, each for their own reasons. I think that may be what she's attempting here, but I didn't feel that it comes off very well, nonetheless.

One of the things I thought was interesting were the people she chose to list as going to hell. They're not the normal sort of choices, but they are representing her agenda with this book.

How it seemed that humans have lost hope/magic and have become callous to everything that isn't some commodity; how fairy with no earthiness has become shallow and brittle and just as destructive. For real people I think she is talking about a lack of balance between the mundane and the mysterious. Too much of one attribute or the other and destruction will eventually result.

I agree here, and this is sort of how I view the world. It also touches some on some of the discussion that's been going on over in the Big Fat thread.

- it still irritates me a bit that Carabosse comments on Beauty's intelligence or lack thereof at the beginning;

Why does it irritate you? I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. I did ponder this through the rest of the book, though, as she really didn't seem all that dumb to me.


This is the second book of Tepper's that I have read, the first being Plague of Angels about four years back. I really didn't care for that book at the time. This one suited me better, but still didn't really feel like the kind of book that I would go for, which is strange, since everything that she's using (Faery, twisted fairy tales, etc.) are all things I usually really enjoy.

 

[Nimea]

Why does it irritate you? I noticed it, but it didn't really bother me. I did ponder this through the rest of the book, though, as she really didn't seem all that dumb to me.

That's exactly the point.

And it irritated me in combination with my points about Carabosse. It sounds at the beginning like she will give comments on the whole diary, but she then leaves the picture - and I am still not sure what to think about that either.


About her travels to the future and other places: those really felt strange. The first time that happened it was so sudden I was really surprised and wondered where this would go. But I think that's the point, those non-home episodes are the contrast to 'home' and the time when things are 'better'.
I had the feeling this was also presented throught the language, it was less describing, less detailed than the past. Harder, and it was when Beauty learned more about the world, matured and had to feel the loss of beauty the most . . .

 

[Nevyn]

I enjoyed Beauty immensely up until I had finished the book and given it some more thought . I liked how the story was used to describe mankinds distruction of the planet , of how we as a race are draining the world of it's magic (beauty) . I liked her spin on how Oberon thought he could trick God , I see mankind thinking they're equally as clever in the real world .

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

 

[Erfael]

I enjoyed Beauty immensely up until I had finished the book and given it some more thought . I liked how the story was used to describe mankinds distruction of the planet , of how we as a race are draining the world of it's magic (beauty) . I liked her spin on how Oberon thought he could trick God , I see mankind thinking they're equally as clever in the real world .

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

I notice that, too, but I think it may have to do with some of the problem that she sees coming is just too many people. I think it's more of "what's going to keep the Earth going the longest," and one of the problems that many environmentalists cite is the exponential growth of population. Does having more people help the planet? It doesn't seem that way at the moment. I think that's where she's coming from with that. It seems to me that with the second half of that sentence she's trying to say that having ids left and right without concern for what it will do to the planet in the long run is in and of itself destroying beauty in the long run. Just my take on it.

 

[Nimea]

Mmpf, I mentioned that before as well.

Interesting take with the overpopulation. But I myself instantly thought about Beauty's rape and resulting (mad) daughter - which kind of connected the comment to the story, still I was just as irritated as Nevyn.
Right now I don't recall if abortion was mentioned somewhere else as well, anyone remembering?

 

[FicusFan]

I found the book to be both intelligent and thought provoking only to be somewhat ruined by a huge contradiction bordering on hypocracy on Tepper's behalf ! The whole story is about how we destroy , rape and defile and yet Tepper chose to add this for who was in hell

" Others are here, many from the twentieth. Those who forbade birth control and abortion, worshipping the fetus over all other of God's creations. "

Either way I try to look at the meaning , I still find it out of context with the message of her story , for the destruction of life is still destroying God's creation ! Yes I am a Christian but I can assure you my personal beliefs diddn't help me reach this conclusion !

Anyhow , good book I will be reading some more of Tepper's books soon .

Uh I beg to differ you most certainely used your beliefs to reach that conclusion.

A fetus is no more deserving of 'life' than hair or nails or skin, or any other part of your body that is alive because you are. It has no independent existence. Once a fetus becomes capable of living on its own outside the womb then you are talking about something that does have life, a baby, and should be treated differrently. And I don't mean life as being hooked up to machines or turning into a vegetable for the rest of your life. Until that time it is no more than a collection of cells with the potential for life.

If you think differently then be true to your beleifs and don't have an abortion, but don't try to make everyone in the world live by them too.

I think that Tepper was worring about overpopulation not only for the environment but for women, children and families. Those who are better educated, and have more money have fewer children. When you have fewer children you can take care of the ones you do have better, both emotionally and financially. The children have a better start and more opportunities.

What Tepper should have done is talked about the people in hell because they prevented the type of society which made abortion and overpopulation un-neccessary. Abortion, like any other invasive medical procedure, should be a last resort and used for medical needs only - not by banning them but by making a society where the other reasons for them disappear because of the changes in people and the society.

 

[Nimea]

Uh I beg to differ you most certainely used your beliefs to reach that conclusion.

A fetus is no more deserving of 'life' than hair or nails or skin, or any other part of your body that is alive because you are. It has no independent existence. Once a fetus becmes capable of living on its own outside the womb then you are talking about something that does have life, a baby, and should be treated differrently. And I don't mean life as being hooked up to machines or turning into a vegetable for the rest of your life. Until that time it is no more than a collection of cells with the potential for life.

If you think differently then be true to your beleifs and don't have an abortion, but don't try to make everyone in the world live by them too.

I am not Nevyn, but is this not a bit too aggressive response? Sounds a bit like an attack while I see nothing in Nevyns post that could trigger this.

Sorry, if I just got that wrong, but I needed to say that first.

Aand then: well, what you state is not a fact. It's your opinion, but the anwer to the question when life, when personhood starts is a central question to the whole abortion discussion and is not yet answered conclusivly.

I am a Christian only on paper and I had my share of Christian class at school. Yet - and maybe partly because I am not a believer - I have a problem with the whole thing. I am not contra, yet not really pro which has to do with the question of when life starts (and I am not referring to a soul here or anything). And since I think life is important and precious without believing in a god . . . well, there you go.

Actually, I think this is were the whole discussion here might get very precarious. So I will just drop that from now on and get back to the book at hand.

Again: is it only about overpopulation? Trying to remember I think overpopulation is adressed indirectly.
But: what about rape and resulting pregnancy.

I looked up the quote that Nevyn gave, finding this some lines after it: ". . . endlessly pregnant, endlessly giving birth, endlessly suckling the demonic life that burgeons out of them, with no choice in the matter. Having allowed none, they are now given none, and the Dark Lord roars with amusemnt." (p.397f Bantam Spectra edition)

This, for me, has a lot to do with Beauty's experience as well . . .

I do not know, but is Tepper's opinion on these things (as well as on Christianity) coming through here? Probably, but honestly, it's a reason why I would like to read more of Tepper's novels.

 

[Nevyn]

Uh I beg to differ you most certainely used your beliefs to reach that conclusion.

A fetus is no more deserving of 'life' than hair or nails or skin, or any other part of your body that is alive because you are. It has no independent existence. Once a fetus becmes capable of living on its own outside the womb then you are talking about something that does have life, a baby, and should be treated differrently. And I don't mean life as being hooked up to machines or turning into a vegetable for the rest of your life. Until that time it is no more than a collection of cells with the potential for life.

If you think differently then be true to your beleifs and don't have an abortion, but don't try to make everyone in the world live by them too.

I think that Tepper was worring about overpopulation not only for the environment but for women, children and families. Those who are better educated, and have more money have fewer children. When you have fewer children you can take care of the ones you do have better, both emotionally and financially. The children have a better start and more opportunities.

Firstly , your opinion on a fetus is just that . Your opinion!
I do believe differently . I do not believe it is my place to judge others as well Tepper made clear in Beauty that only God could do this . It was this I had trouble with the most , not the moral or ethical but the fact that the writer herself passed judgement that for me felt like a square peg in a round hole !

Thanks Nimea

 

[Eventine]

I finished up Beauty this morning.
Wow - this book was a lot more than I expected.
I'll post my inital impressions here then have a read of everyone else's comments, so sorry if there's any duplication.

The Beginning:
I liked how it started out as a typical fairy tale story and got very wrong very quickly. Beauty's transfer to the horrific future was pretty interesting (and very dark).
I thought it was interesting how Tepper showed Beauty's preoccupation with life away from the book in 90's - she obviously had a lot more going on in her life, so the entries were short and far between.
I didn't really enjoy the whole visit to the river until Beauty go to meet her mother - this was one of the only flat bits in the book for me.

The Middle:
Some more good concepts here. It was interesting to see that Faery was only attractive to it's people - those who lived within it. When Beauty first visits it appears as marshes and hovels, and when she leaves she's filthy and starved.
I didn't think there was so much need to include all the fairy tales - I thought it was a good enough trick to play on the sleeping beauty concept without dragging in several other fairy tales.

The End:
Beauty (the thing, not the character) really gets passed as a powerful message (to me at least) during the visit to hell. The concept that hell is a place where those who have destroyed beauty really got me thinking about the world around me, and that I am guessing, is why the author wrote this book.
I liked Beauty's attempt to turn Westfaire into an Ark, only to discover that she'd beenh olding one inside her the whole time. We always knew she'd been holding beauty within her - it was just a matter of discovering what form it would take. I actually expected to see the blossoming of the gift, but I think that the book wa sprobably better without it.

Overall:
I really enjoyed this book. The concept was great, and well delivered. This book actually had a message to deliver, as opposed to being just entertainment, and it did a good job of being entertaining whilst doing it.
As I mentioned earlier, I felt that including some of the other fairy tales could have been left out, but it didn't diminish the book that much.
I felt that Beauty was a very tragic character - how long must she have lived? 25 years? 30? So much went wrong for her throughout the novel, her life was nearly an anti-fairy tale.

Now to read what everyone else has to say...

 

[Eventine]

I took Teppers comments about abortion to be a commentary on the Catholic church preventing the use of contraception and abortion
However, I didn't take the other church comments throughout the book (the transfer of magic from fairy to the church) as an attack on the church, and more of a plot element to explain the dissolution of fairy.

It looks like some people here didn't enjoy the future sections of the book. I thought they were the most important - without an understanding of the terrible fate awaiting mankind Beauty wouldn't have had the motivations she did throughout the rest of the novel.

It's interesting to me to see that other people thought the novel was "preachy". It seemed to me the whole point of the novel was its message - to me, without the commentary it would have been a boring modification of a fairy tale (as I mentioned above, the retelling of the fairytale elements to me were some of the slowest part so the book). I'd read Maguire or someone else doing parodies if that was what I was looking for.

One thing that bothered me:
Beauty never really attempted to alter her own past - numerous times she could have attempted to change Jaybee in his timeline before he met her, but she chose not too. Maybe she felt it was inevitable?
But if that were the case, why, when in the future as an old lady, did she retrieve her money and attempt to steer mankind away from Fiddipur?

 

[Erfael]

One thing that bothered me:
Beauty never really attempted to alter her own past - numerous times she could have attempted to change Jaybee in his timeline before he met her, but she chose not too. Maybe she felt it was inevitable?
But if that were the case, why, when in the future as an old lady, did she retrieve her money and attempt to steer mankind away from Fiddipur?

This reminds me of something: I'm not sure she could have altered Jaybee before they "met." I'm not sure she had much personal choice at all in the grand scheme of things. When she first meets Bill as a young girl he has the heels and the "soft things" that she gives him when she's an old woman. That to me sort of says that the future and the past are all laid out already, with nothing she does really changing them -- their meeting on the whaler, their not being allowed to finish their documentary. By the first time she meets the film crew (which is the last time in their chronology), all of the previous encounters had already been played out, implying that that was the course events were going to take (unless you want to get into some sort of quantum debate, but Tepper didn't structure it that way, so I'm not sure it applies). Just a niggling thing, but something that often bothers me in this kind of bouncing around in time book.

Maybe she's just trying to get the message across that even if something is inevitable, we still need to try to do something about it....I don't know.

 

[FicusFan]

I took Teppers comments about abortion to be a commentary on the Catholic church preventing the use of contraception and abortion
However, I didn't take the other church comments throughout the book (the transfer of magic from fairy to the church) as an attack on the church, and more of a plot element to explain the dissolution of fairy.

It looks like some people here didn't enjoy the future sections of the book. I thought they were the most important - without an understanding of the terrible fate awaiting mankind Beauty wouldn't have had the motivations she did throughout the rest of the novel.

It's interesting to me to see that other people thought the novel was "preachy". It seemed to me the whole point of the novel was its message - to me, without the commentary it would have been a boring modification of a fairy tale (as I mentioned above, the retelling of the fairytale elements to me were some of the slowest part so the book). I'd read Maguire or someone else doing parodies if that was what I was looking for.

One thing that bothered me:
Beauty never really attempted to alter her own past - numerous times she could have attempted to change Jaybee in his timeline before he met her, but she chose not too. Maybe she felt it was inevitable?
But if that were the case, why, when in the future as an old lady, did she retrieve her money and attempt to steer mankind away from Fiddipur?

I don't have a problem with books that have a message - I do have a problem when a book of fiction (ostensibly written for entertainment purposes) fails in that aspect because there is too much emphasis placed on the message and not enough on the entertainment aspect. I found that to be true in this book for me. I didn't really care about the characters for most of the book, I was bored by large sections of setting and I wasn't interested in the 'plot' for most of the book. That I actually was able to say after completing the book that I rather liked it is a strong testament to Tepper's skill because the parts I did like were stronger than my dislike. But I can't say that it was a great reading experience: perhaps Patches of Good.

 

[Eventine]

This reminds me of something: I'm not sure she could have altered Jaybee before they "met." I'm not sure she had much personal choice at all in the grand scheme of things. When she first meets Bill as a young girl he has the heels and the "soft things" that she gives him when she's an old woman. That to me sort of says that the future and the past are all laid out already, with nothing she does really changing them -- their meeting on the whaler, their not being allowed to finish their documentary. By the first time she meets the film crew (which is the last time in their chronology), all of the previous encounters had already been played out, implying that that was the course events were going to take (unless you want to get into some sort of quantum debate, but Tepper didn't structure it that way, so I'm not sure it applies). Just a niggling thing, but something that often bothers me in this kind of bouncing around in time book.

Maybe she's just trying to get the message across that even if something is inevitable, we still need to try to do something about it....I don't know.

The thing is, she knew what was inevitable with her relationship with Bill and Jaybee, she knew her personal role in that timeline.

There was nothing to show her that spending the time and money trying to save humanity had to be done, but she tried anyway.

Maybe it's another example of Beauty's self sacrifice to save beauty?

 

[Eventine]

I noticed that Iskaral Pust nominated this book and hasn't commented yet. Come one Pusty!

OK - here's another attempt to get a conversation for a book running longer than a nomination thread:

During the early stages of Beauty in the 20th century and her period in hell, there are numerous comments by the author about horror novels and other forms of desensitising media. I believe thatTepper is saying that by desensitising ourselves to horror (or anti-beauty perhaps?) that we are less shocked as it pervades our world, and thus we slip easier towards the end.

So, the question is:
Is this a call by Tepper to reduce the amount of media desensitising us to horror/violence/starvation/death/anti-beauty?
Is this a call for only so called "consolatory" fantasy? How do you think China Mieville would react to this book?

 

[FicusFan]

I noticed that she seemed to be wailing at horror and I wasn't sure how to take it. I don't think I have ever read any horror that was anything near real life in terms of true horror. So it seems that she is getting upset at the wrong parties.

I agree she is probably talking about desensitizing, but I think the movies, and TV with all the shooting and the crashing and the destruction - where it is very quick (no after effects), and neat and only hits the bad guys is much more pernicious than horror. I agree that if you are engaged in trashing or destroying 'Beauty' its not a good thing - but without the dark you don't appreciate the light. You can't have just sweetness and light or eat only desert. So while she is aiming for an admirable goal I don't think it is achieveable, and maybe wouldn't even be all that good if it were.

Also one of my peeves with the book was how Beauty so quickly became a modern woman in terms of outlook, and expectation, and just using and knowing the same culture that we have. I feel that Tepper brought her to hang out in our time, just so she could have her shed even the smallest semblence of being from her original time.

 

[artyclayforever]

Beauty

Hi everyone, I new here.
Looking for a discussion on Tepper and her last book The Companions; in fact I came on line originally to find her latest 'humanist' fiction. I prefer this tern because I think she essentially preaches equality. If the feminist sermonizing gets to be too much my eyes skip over it....she's preaching to the converted . The Companions is a wonderful book, and has a satisfying ending.
THAT's enough for a first entry. Look forward to coming back, better get off to the studio.

 

[Yobmod]

Seeing as its been bumped:

I really liked Beauty, and it one of the books that are in my top 10 fantasy. In spite of this i agree with some of the flaws ppl have pointed out. I loved the fairytale setting, and was amused by the way the other fairytales were incorperated into Beauty's story. The trip to the future was unexpected for me, but i didn't dislike it, and it didn't last too long.
However, the stay in the 'fictional world' with the river seemed completely pointless, and could almost have been excised completely without affecting the story.
The social and political point Teppers trying to make didn't put me off for a change, and although i don't think she was correct about some things (ie Horror films / books being evil), i think she presented them with sufficient consistency that they made sense in that world.
One small scene i liked a lot was the last raddish TV clip, i thought it was funny and made the point about the intensive farming to feed the population without ramming it down our throats.
The fact that Beauty was old by the end of the story was a plus point too, it made the ending more poignant and stopped the point of conclusion feeling arbitary.
Finally, the use of magic was well done. There wasn't much beyond the fairy thread, but the 3 items of clothing she made were cool. The 1000 league boots and Invisibility cloak seem very obvious uses, but then again so did the thinking cap, but i still couldn't have predicted it before it happened.


I think this is the last Tepper book i really enjoyed. I have lots of her books from before beauty that i would rcomend (True Game, Mavin manyshaped, and Jinian trilogies, Gate to Womens Country, Grass, Raising the stones), but after it i haven't really liked any. For me Tepper managed to balance the story and message very well, whereas the later books (Visitor, Fresco) have had too much message, and its been much too obvious, to the detriment of the story