In a well written book I don't think sex is necessary. Not to say that a book with sex cannot be good, but if I wanted sex, I probably would have gotten myself a Playboy or Penthouse or rented a porn video. Putting sex in in my mind gives parents very good reason not only to discourage them but also outright stop buying fantasy books for their kids if they don't have the time to go over every single one beforehand. Just isn't practical.
Sex in Fantasy
- Thread starter Lani
- Start date
Well I can see a legitimate gripe being raised by parents against the His Dark Materials Trilogy, Rose of the Prophet Trilogy, Song of Ice and Fire, Wheel of Time. I can also see how some early or even pre-adolescents might be led to those pretty easily. You disagree?
ChrisW
Banned
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er yes. I would not let any child of mine read fantasy that is located in the sci-fi/fantasy section of a bookstore. Not because of sex but because of the level of violence in most fantasy books.
As for Pullmans Dark materials series well that really shouldnt be in the childrens section as it is to violent for kids.
oh and kids = 9-13 imo. 13+ they can read whatever they damn want.
As for Pullmans Dark materials series well that really shouldnt be in the childrens section as it is to violent for kids.
oh and kids = 9-13 imo. 13+ they can read whatever they damn want.
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This whole sex argument gets more ridiculous each time
EACH parent should decide FOR THEIR OWN children what is appropriate FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
It's been said before. Sex is a part of life. If an author chooses to use sex (or food, or anything from life) and plausibly integrate it into their story, that is their right.
Sex for sex's sake, just to put it there [like any aspect of a story] is not good writing. If it is integral to the story, as it is with George R.R. Martin's series then the writer has effectively told a story.
Pullman's DARK MATERIALS books are aimed at (young adults) kids 13+ and adults. Look at the numerous versions of the books, just like Harry Potter. At least here in the US there is a different version in the "Adult" Fantasy section and a different version in the Young Adult section.
As for Weis & Hickman, they were probably held with stricter "rules" for their DragonLance books since it is a licensed property. I read most of their books when I was a teen and I don't remember any over-gratuitous sex.
EACH parent should decide FOR THEIR OWN children what is appropriate FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
It's been said before. Sex is a part of life. If an author chooses to use sex (or food, or anything from life) and plausibly integrate it into their story, that is their right.
Sex for sex's sake, just to put it there [like any aspect of a story] is not good writing. If it is integral to the story, as it is with George R.R. Martin's series then the writer has effectively told a story.
Pullman's DARK MATERIALS books are aimed at (young adults) kids 13+ and adults. Look at the numerous versions of the books, just like Harry Potter. At least here in the US there is a different version in the "Adult" Fantasy section and a different version in the Young Adult section.
As for Weis & Hickman, they were probably held with stricter "rules" for their DragonLance books since it is a licensed property. I read most of their books when I was a teen and I don't remember any over-gratuitous sex.
Parental censorship has always been a matter of choice, altho I have to admit that seeing a book in the hand of any of my children gave me a safer feeling than seeing them perched in front of the TV.(thats another topic and not for this thread) There have been pivotal storyline developments that evolved from the use or even abuse of characters.. a long ago rape might set up the undercurrent & forgotten reason for a family's discord with another.. so I can accept the content in that way. Gratuitous sex... yawn.. give me a good battle scene... oh wait! aren't they about the same thing? Power?
Jumping on the devil's advocate stand with jbcohen.
Jumping on the devil's advocate stand with jbcohen.
Elan Morin Tedronai
The Betrayer of Hope
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There should be some cenzorship FitzFlagg! Alothough I am 16 I am diquested from your precios "a Song of Ice and fire"!
Barbarossa
Ancient Member
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Elan if you don't like it, that's fine, but that's your desicion, why should anyone make that desicion for you? I read stuff at least as adult as aSoIaF when I was twelve and certainly don't think I suffered from it.
If anyone had tried to censor me (the only time that happened was when a librarian didn't want to allow me to lend some books) it would only have made me try harder to get those books.
Personally my first argument against censorship is that it doesn't work, it's just another way of advertising.
My second and far more important argument is, that yes Kid can be hurt by too much violence and perhaps sex too, in books or films, but in my opinion, it's not reading/seeing it that hurt them, but being left alone to cope with it.
Look at the old fairy tales, they are violent like hell, but they were told by granny in front of the fire, and granny was there to assure the kids all would be good in the end, to explain things, to comfort kids.
The problem with videos and some kids today is, that videos have replaced the grannies, they show the violence, but they give no comfort, nor explenations.
If parents try to censor what their kids read, the kids will get more curious about the forbidden stuff, but will be barred to go to their parents for comfort and explenations.
If you don't want your kids to read somthing, don't buy it for them, but if they get it elsewhere don't make a fuss about it, try to keep their trust, and be there to pick up the pieces in the worst case.
In the end you can't protect you kids against the world, as hard as you try, but you can try to make your kids ready for it.
Personally I would have no problem reading Dark materials to some 8 year old (and would have problems to give it to some 16 year olds) but better to read it to your own kid, and be there for questions, than having the kid read it on it's own, without anyone to answer questions.
If anyone had tried to censor me (the only time that happened was when a librarian didn't want to allow me to lend some books) it would only have made me try harder to get those books.
Personally my first argument against censorship is that it doesn't work, it's just another way of advertising.
My second and far more important argument is, that yes Kid can be hurt by too much violence and perhaps sex too, in books or films, but in my opinion, it's not reading/seeing it that hurt them, but being left alone to cope with it.
Look at the old fairy tales, they are violent like hell, but they were told by granny in front of the fire, and granny was there to assure the kids all would be good in the end, to explain things, to comfort kids.
The problem with videos and some kids today is, that videos have replaced the grannies, they show the violence, but they give no comfort, nor explenations.
If parents try to censor what their kids read, the kids will get more curious about the forbidden stuff, but will be barred to go to their parents for comfort and explenations.
If you don't want your kids to read somthing, don't buy it for them, but if they get it elsewhere don't make a fuss about it, try to keep their trust, and be there to pick up the pieces in the worst case.
In the end you can't protect you kids against the world, as hard as you try, but you can try to make your kids ready for it.
Personally I would have no problem reading Dark materials to some 8 year old (and would have problems to give it to some 16 year olds) but better to read it to your own kid, and be there for questions, than having the kid read it on it's own, without anyone to answer questions.
- Joined
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JohnH said this in another post, sums up much better what I was trying to say in my previous posts:
Elan:
Yes by children's parents--that is a parent should be the only person who can say what a their children can read. Just as an adult is the only person who should choose what they themselves read. If you are offended don't read it. End of argument, Period.
Elan:
Yes by children's parents--that is a parent should be the only person who can say what a their children can read. Just as an adult is the only person who should choose what they themselves read. If you are offended don't read it. End of argument, Period.
How about books where the sex is not obvious or described in the book, but is sort of implied. In some Dragon Lance books it is sort of implied. Caramon and Tika are married and in the next book their son shows up. Never once did the books talk of sex, although everyone knows it happened.
SusF
Who me?
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I heard that in the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms books are purposely kept very free of sex by the writer's guidelines.
There is so much "lack" of sex in the Realms books to be almost unnatural. Poor Drizzt is 100 years old and still a virgin. I think he's had one passionate kiss. That's swinging a little too far in the other direction. Bothers my suspension of disbelief. Other than that, the books are entertaining.
Susan
There is so much "lack" of sex in the Realms books to be almost unnatural. Poor Drizzt is 100 years old and still a virgin. I think he's had one passionate kiss. That's swinging a little too far in the other direction. Bothers my suspension of disbelief. Other than that, the books are entertaining.
Susan
alison
Books of Pellinor
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- 671
My kids (aged six to 13) seem pretty unfazed by sex - that is, the 13yo will laugh at rude jokes that the others don't get, and the 11 yo still hates kissing in the movies. My standard on what they want to read is whether it makes them uncomfortable - for the 6yo, whether it gives him nightmares (so he won't be going to the LOTR). My 13yo can read whatever he's capable of, and regulates himself. It's all pretty subtle and depends on the capacities of each individual. Mass censorship is obviously not the way, and parental discretion much more important, and being able to talk. But as far as behavioural stuff goes, it's what happens at home that matters most of all - as some have said here, context.
A note that Dragonball Z (one of my fave cartoons, and aimed I guess at 10year olds) has characters marrying and having children, and this seems to faze no children at all - it's what they see going on around them, after all...
Alison
A note that Dragonball Z (one of my fave cartoons, and aimed I guess at 10year olds) has characters marrying and having children, and this seems to faze no children at all - it's what they see going on around them, after all...
Alison
So what form do you want your censorship in Elan? Holes in the story where all mention of sex is removed? Remove those aspects from ASOIAF and it won't make sense.
Ban the book entirely? Then those of us who aren't bothered by the sex miss out.
A classification system like in movies?
Or maybe they could just have a childrens section of the bookshop, where all the books are well screened and suitably *clean*? Hang on - that last point is reality. Head back to the kids books if you can't handle lack of censorship, Elan.
Ban the book entirely? Then those of us who aren't bothered by the sex miss out.
A classification system like in movies?
Or maybe they could just have a childrens section of the bookshop, where all the books are well screened and suitably *clean*? Hang on - that last point is reality. Head back to the kids books if you can't handle lack of censorship, Elan.
To Nefarian, also WAAY back...
I didn't say there was no gratuitous or other kind of sex in Mission Earth. I just said I didn't remember any. I guess the whole book didn't make much of an impression on me. I used to commute to the city on the LIRR 1 hour each way, so I read a lot of books. As far as sex goes, written or otherwise I love to come across it wherever and whenever. But I find it offensive when it is totally unnecessary and/or violent, which is how the sex was in The Gap book. Like I also said before, I thoroughly enjoyed "Margaret and I", the bookk was clever and the sex was good, too!
I didn't say there was no gratuitous or other kind of sex in Mission Earth. I just said I didn't remember any. I guess the whole book didn't make much of an impression on me. I used to commute to the city on the LIRR 1 hour each way, so I read a lot of books. As far as sex goes, written or otherwise I love to come across it wherever and whenever. But I find it offensive when it is totally unnecessary and/or violent, which is how the sex was in The Gap book. Like I also said before, I thoroughly enjoyed "Margaret and I", the bookk was clever and the sex was good, too!
I've found sex to be written in three different manners within the fantasy genre. The most common manner is boldly and shockingly. It's the kind of sex that requires someone borrow some actin balloons from the old Batman serials from the 60's and then add several dozen exclamation points. As reference, absolutely anything written by Goodkind serves my point. There's also the Con Dar scene, but I'm trying my hardest not to think about that. This also extends to the occasional rape scenes in 'Ice and Fire' and 'WoT,' and unfortunately, into the endless rape scenes in 'SoT.'
The second type of sex presented in fantasy lit. is a relaxing activity some people do at the end of the day. Robert Jordan seems to give his characters this sort of attitude towards sex in his books. In the later books, there was a scene (out of I believe ACOS) in which Min arrives in Carhien, Rand is overjoyed to see her, and the scene closes with Jordan alluding to sexual activities between the two characters.
The third kind is...non-existant. Whoever brought up sex in D&D novels is correct. I've never seen any sex in the few D&D novels I've managed to actually tolerate. Whether this is intentionally withheld by the writer or by the company I could not say for certain.
The second type of sex presented in fantasy lit. is a relaxing activity some people do at the end of the day. Robert Jordan seems to give his characters this sort of attitude towards sex in his books. In the later books, there was a scene (out of I believe ACOS) in which Min arrives in Carhien, Rand is overjoyed to see her, and the scene closes with Jordan alluding to sexual activities between the two characters.
The third kind is...non-existant. Whoever brought up sex in D&D novels is correct. I've never seen any sex in the few D&D novels I've managed to actually tolerate. Whether this is intentionally withheld by the writer or by the company I could not say for certain.
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