So you want to be the next Tolkien/Jordan?

[kahnovitch]

Now I know we have a lot of writers here. Some published and some still aspiring and some both!. Although we probably all want to be the next Rowling/Tolkien/Jordan... (whatever's your poison), there is a rather unfortunate Catch 22 we are all a victim of and also responsible for creating.
In a nutshell; as writers we want an agent/publisher to take a chance on an unknown quantity (us), but as readers will we cough up a few notes to do the same for someone else?
Do we have to be told what to read by the mainstream market, or can you find a diamond in the sand once in a while by taking a chance on a relative unknown?

Will POD forever live in the shadow of mainstream?
Or will the market (i.e. reader's) attiutudes ever threaten to change the monopolistic control the mainstream publishers seem to have?

It has to start somewhere after all.

 

[Lucky Joe]

It's a definite catch 22. Of course I think everybody should read my book. But then who doesn't think that of their own work?

You really should read it you know!!

I do read books by authors I haven't heard of before, but only after flicking through a few chapters to see if it's something I might like, but let's be honest, there are so many big names out there, so many books by great authors I enjoy every time I read them that I'll almost always go back to them first unless I feel like something different or need a rest from them.

Will POD remain in the shadows? Probably, at least in the short term, however as technology for ebooks and hand held readers improves (as it will, companies are spending lots of money developing this for a reason) POD will have a chance to rise up and play with the big boys, what happens from there is up to the readers. Problem is people tend to be a bit like sheep and follow the herd - just look at the harry potter books, I know people who've never read anything (not even a sports page) until these books came out and then because everybody else was reading them, they figured they should too, then they try and tell me I should read them?!?

Don't get me wrong I think POD is a good thing that gives people the chance to see their work in print and share it with others, but without the huge marketing budget the big fellas enjoy it'd be pretty hard to compete toe to toe.

 

[juzzza]

Ah Kahn, you have nailed a BIG problem in the world of words...

The same is true of the short story indy press, I.E. the small publications who publish and pay for short stories. I asked our forum of writers here, who all would love to have a short published, how many actually subscribe to the magazines they send submissions to... The answer was very few.

And indeed this is the problem, we all moan that the number of magazines that will publish short stories is dwindling and yet we refuse to help ourselves by supporting the publications that do exist... Indeed, a catch 22 where ultimately only the writers suffer.

POD, apart from the perception gap that exists and the stigma attached to going POD, definitely suffers from this cycle too...

 

[Miriamele]

Interesting question, Kahn.

As a writer myself who someday wishes for publication, I do feel an obligation--both for the sake of myself and for other writers--to support the genre by buying books. It's only logical. For this reason I don't frequent the library or go to used bookstores--even though by most people's standards I'm pretty poor--because authors don't get anything from those books, and if they can't make a living from their writing then they'll have to go back to their day job.

And I am open to trying things by new writers. In fact, I look for the lesser-known authors, whose books are often an unexpected treasure. This is as much because I don't like to "follow the crowd" as because I recognize the situation you've described--these new and little-known writers are not going to continue getting published if people don't buy their books, and no more of the same will be published. It's a pretty simple equation, one which strangely many would-be writers don't seem to grasp at all.

I remember the magazine poll Juzzza is talking about, where most of the respondents said they wanted to get paid for their story but wanted to get the magazine for free...I mean c'mon people, where do you think the money is going to come from, Juzzza's retirement fund or something? Everyone wants something for nothing.

People.

 

[Dawnstorm]

I just love reading authors I've never heard of. There's little surprise value in established names; you pretty much know what to expect, and if they do come up with something unusual, you'll hear it from someone else first (due to the great publicity they get).

About half of the novels I buy are from people I've never heard of before. I read samples before I buy them; I'll buy them if I like the style.

And I just love magazines. I'd buy more if I knew where to find them.

 

[JRMurdock]

Let me throw my two cents out there. NO! wait! I need that to buy another book!

Sorry, lost my head for a moment.

I used to write and write and write. I had little time (and money) to read, so I didn't buy anything. As of late, my finances are in much better shape and I've taken up reading again. I've bought an alarming number of books -- accoring to my spouse -- but I've read them all. When I told her I was suscribing to mags too she wondered where I was coming up with all this time to read: speed reading course.

I've found a number of great and talented authors out there both in book form and short story form. I would never buy a POD so I'll appologize now to any who have one out there. I'm sure I'm missing out, but I just can't bring myself to pay $17+ for a paperback. Just as I did not take my book to a POD though I did research all angles. I would never expect a fan to pay so much for a book. I even looked at getting it printed myself, but didn't have the $$ on hand to get 1,000 (or more) printed. Then I did research on those who self-publish or PODed and saw the future paved with hands out for more money and little coming in. I decided to keep my money in my pocket(well, ok, I bought more books) and keep fine tuning my craft.

Which leads me back to WHY I'm buying and reading so much. I wanted to know a few things, what's selling, what are people reading, what are magazines buying, where should I concentrate my efforts, etc. By reading and buying the mags I want to be in, I'm getting a good feel of what they publish and the quality of work they're looking for. The only downside I've seen so far is waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

As of this writing, I have one short story that will be published in an anthology in April and a second short story that I entered into a contest that will also be published in April in a different anthology. My name in print...can it get any better?

 

[Miriamele]

That's awesome, Maus. What anthologies are your stories going to be published in?

 

[JRMurdock]

Well, it depends on how you want to get there.

There's my bibliography I keep online to track my submissions. This page is more for me than anyone who might visit the page (of which there are few). The Bibliography

Or you can go to where they're published at:

Stan's Mirror will be published at Lighthouse Media One in the anthology Malestrom
and
For the Time Being will be published at Red Writing Hood. I didn't win the contest, but I'll be published in the anthology. I won't turn my nose up if my name is in print.

Thanks for asking. Both of these publications came back within a week of each other. I'm a high right now. Off to go put more words on paper, or in word, which ever comes first.

 

[juzzza]

Congrats Maus, I believe Lighthouse Media One will also be featuring artwork by Abby Goldsmith soon...

And yes, it can always get better, you could get published AGAIN and Again and Again...

 

[Susan Boulton]

Don't want to be Jordan or Tolkien, just want to be me. my writing, my ideas, my thoughts my work....

Congrats maus99 on being published, but I had to smile at your post, when you talked about costs....

I reckon, sending hard copy of manuscripts off to publishers and agents over the last three/four years I have lashed out £500 in postage alone add to that printing costs, paper printer ink etc... you can throw in about the same....

So my effort to get published has been bankrolled to the tune of about £1000 in four years... a lot of money.....

And yes I have used email submissions were and when I can, but for novels I have found they want it hard copy. Frist the 50 pages or three chapters then the whole thing and you bit your nails as they take six months to say nope, not this time....

Oh Seven Threads, is POD by the way.... for one simple reason, we wanted the stories to survive and have a chance of going on. Left on the forum in their rough form, they would have faded away and died.

 

[Hellsfire]

I personally buy whatever book interests me, whether it be in story, writing, whatever. I also find that whenever authors hit a certain point, especially in a series or genre, they start to lag after they've been doing it for years. I think they forget to treat their first as their last and their last as their first as when they came.

When it comes to POD, it is overpriced but that's not really the problem. The problem is anyone can do it and there's a lot of editing problems in the book. If you're trying to get something published for friends and family, that's fine but for mainstream...Another problem is that POD books aren't returnable for retailers. Of course, it's a whole screwed up system anyway with everyone doing things backwards and screwing everyone else over. It's all about making money. Ching, ching!

Unpublished authors have a better chance than those who got published and failed. If I think I have it rough, I'd hate to be one of those people.

And I don't want to be like Tolkien. What's the point in being appreciated when you're dead, unless you're like Jesus and you knew the only way for change to happen was for you to become a martyr. But that's another topic.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Ok some very opinionated comments here about POD and about mainstream.

Question how many of you have submitted to mainstream, how many novels? How many times?

Me;
Answer;

First novel; first off attempt ten publishers, ten rejections, these included some personal letters from submission’s editors. Re edit; seven publishers, seven rejections. Latest edit being done, re submission to NY agent who likes my writing, but wasn’t keen on last submission, which was book number two.

Second novel; fifteen submissions fifteen rejections, though this time a number of letters/emails exchanged between publishers/agents and myself… One agent has since come back requesting other work… see above…. This novel(number two) has now been entered in the Lichfield Prize 2004. If it fails there it has already been re edited and an additional chapter added for re submission to publishers.

Total cost in money of the above £1000. Time, effort and heartbreak, heaven knows, I don’t.

Third novel joint anthology of short stories with Hereford Eye, POD with EQ books…. Done for very personal reasons; making money being not one of them. The stories took six months to write, six months to improve and edit. Were edited both before submission to EQ books and after….

To say the POD book, took less effort, time, labour and love than the others…. Rubbish.. But as I said making money from that is not the idea.

Actually, I would have been better off putting the £1000 spent on submitting to mainstream in a savings account.

Put my money and hard work where my mouth is

Your turn……

 

[Hereford Eye]

Originally posted by Holbrook
Third novel joint anthology of short stories with Hereford Eye, POD with EQ books…. Done for very personal reasons; making money being not one of them.

Okay, Erebus and I take a small exception to Holbrook's thoughts here. We personally would like to see you all go out and buy a copy and allow us to retire to do what we really want to do: write.

But, Holbrook is right on target: I have submitted my first novel to four publishers and two agents and never cleared the slush pile.
I have submitted a dozen stories to eight different magazines and never made it past the form letter reply.
It may well be that I am a lousy writer and I think I could accept that but - I was never afforded the luxury of such a comment from the traditional publishers. I couldn't get anyone to take the time to read my submission!!

Equilibrium read Seven Threads, accepted it, and published it. I cannot say enough in regards to the professional and human manner that Erebus and his staff have treated us.

Feel free to knock the process, folk. Holbrook and I will have a book with our names on it that our grandchildren [it will happen, H, count on it] can read and know that the old people were real, had lived a life, and understood some parts of what had happened to them. I think Tolkien could make that statement as well; after all he started out writing just for his sons, right? Don't know about the rest in the poll. Hope they can, too.

 

[JRMurdock]

So far to date

Book 1 - 7 publishers, 5 agents - all form letter rejections
Short stories - 4 published all on first sight (2 web / 2 print), 4 rejections and I've got several more short stories floating around out there that I'm waiting for a response on.

For short stories, I'll write, edit, re-write, edit and ship. If it gets accepted, great, if not, it's edit, re-write and ship. I plan on writing a lot more short stories this year and seeing just how many I can get into print. It's a fun process, espically if you get that e-mail acceptance. It's just tough sitting and waiting.

and yes, juzzza, it's the same place Abby submitted to and she's waiting to hear what piece will be printed. In fact, I'm in the process of sending her novel back to her with my comments. I think that's the longest I've ever taken to read a story, but then I wanted to do a thorough section of comments for her. I think I had 3 pages of comments as well as comments spotted through out the text.

If anyone ever gets down about writing, try some of the semi-pro zines. They seem to be much easier to get published in and it's a great boost to the ego. It's got my brain going 1000 miles an hour! WOO~HOO

 

[Evil Agent]

Pardon my ignorance, BUT WHAT THE HECK IS A POD BOOK?

 

[JRMurdock]

POD = Print On Demand.

If you want more of an explanation

If you write a book, you can go to a POD and for a set up fee, they'll get your book ready to print. Then they'll print your book whenever someone orders it. The cost to you can range WILDY from about $150 - over $5,000. If you pay the higher range, you'll get advertising packages. It all boils down to you need to push your book and convince potential fans that your paperback is worth the $17-35 they'll be expected to pay. No Returns, No Refunds.

If you've got a book that'll 'knock-em-dead' then I say go for it. Otherwise, persist.

But that's my opinion. I spent about a year researching and calling all the PODs I could find. In the end, I decided to persist. But then I already said that, didn't I? I must be getting senile. Harumph!

 

[Evil Agent]

Interesting. The funny thing is that in racking my brain, I actually guessed that it might stand for that, but didn't know what that meant.

So why would you bring a book that could "knock their socks off" to a POD publisher. If it was that good, wouldn't you be able to get it published in a more standard way?

 

[drw]

For those who speak out so strongly against POD (and I must admit, I'm not crazy about POD myself, mainly due to the cost of purchasing one of the paperbacks - 17+ is difficult for a hardcover, let alone a ppb), all I can say is these two words: Christopher Paolini. Not familiar with that name yet?


Christopher Paolini. He is the 17(18?) year old author of the book titled Eragon (Inheritence, Book 1). Originally self published (his parents own a small publishing press), this book took notice from a high end agent, and ended up selling for 6 figures.. and middle range figures, not low end 6. Christopher has been dubbed by many as the 'Next J.K Rowling'. He started pushing his books in booths at various fairs (with some small success), then graduated to representing his books at middle schol conventions - after selling approximately 10k copies, the 'big dawgs' took notice and offered him a contract. Granted, these events happening to you are even less likely than a traditional publisher offerering 3 million for your novel, after one submission - but the fact remains, this success story started with a POD publication. And there are many similar stories, if not of quite this magnitude.

Anyway. My take is, I buy books from the big names, and the no names. I buy the big names because I tend to enjoy them more. I know their writing style, I know their characters, I know what to expect. It's like sitting down and watching your favorite movie for the 20th time. You don't even have to pay attention during the film, but as the credits roll you think: Man I love that movie.

I buy the unknown authors for various reasons. I wish to find that rare stone which is still being compressed into a diamond. I wish to find the next big name before somebody has to tell me about said author. And just as importantly: as a writer, I need to read the crap. Why? Well, like every human being, I question my worth. I have a decent self esteem, but I still question my work, the value of my efforts. I compare myself to similar work that has been published by other unknown authors. And let's face it.. if you want a boost in your ego, simply finish your story, let it lie in the bottom of your desk for a month while you scrounge through the bookstores, flipping through looking for the next Unknown. Pick up a random book that sounds 'ok', take it home. Open it, read 100 pages and think 'OMG if this tripe can be published, my story will be on the bestseller list for sure!' There truly are some horrible stories published these days. I know my work is better than theirs, so for a quick pick me up, I just browse the shelves for Unknowns. I'm a winner either way; a good story worth reading, or a bad story worth comparing to.


DRW

 

[JRMurdock]

HOL and Juz, I forgot to say 'Thank you!' it mean s a lot to hear congrats.

I'm not and never would look down on anyone who goes the self-pub/POD route. I'm sure it's possible for many to achieve a level of success. I don't deny that. All I stated was it wasn't right for me--at least in my opinion. I did my homework and decided that going traditional was what I felt was best for the book(s) I wrote.

I also read as much as I can from people I don't know. I even review other's books to see what people who aren't getting published are writing. It helps me when I help other people. I feel my writing grows stronger each time.

but again, this is only my opinion.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Thoughts on why Seven Threads is printed POD.

The stories contained in this book were, in their first draft, stories from the collab thread here. HE and I started editing them because we wanted to make them better, tell more and complete them. We also wanted to preserve them in the form they were written as much as possible. To capture and lock in the “fun” the “excitement” and the journey writing these stories took us on. Perhaps for us just seeing the book in print has completed that journey and made us ready for another.

Could we have done that by going the traditional route? Would a traditional publisher allow us? I very much doubt it. Neil and EQ books allowed us a lot of editorial control. Allowed us to present the book in the manner we wished. That doesn’t mean it’s badly written or edited, ok there are bound to be mistakes. You read any of the so called “big” writers and find spot the error; you come up with more than one.

As to cost; that’s between me, HE and Neil, but it was very little compared to the quotes I have had from professional editorial services…..*g* which range from 1 US cent per word upwards. I personally don’t have the money to flash about; each sending of a manuscript out is the result of penny pinching here and there to cover the cost. On average to a UK publisher to print and sent out three chapters, ranges from £ 15 to £20. Overseas add another £10. A whole manuscript of say 400 pages, 90,000 words, you are looking at nearer £30 UK nearly hitting £50 overseas.

(Oddly enough I have found using a small local printers to print out my manuscripts from a floppy disc, is cheaper than doing it on my own printer. Better quality paper too….)

So each time I send out a manuscript it is a risk and expense I can ill afford at times. Not to mention the emotional hammering each time one fails, especially last year, when I had health problems, which have left me with a handicap I have to live with for the rest of my life. Does this mean I intend not to submit to traditional publishers any more, no it does not. Seven Threads is special, possible a one off. It captures and puts down in words a special time, never to be repeated in quite the same way again.

I keep hearing the words cost of a paper back etc…. Trade paper backs, which is common over here for the lower selling end of authors, even big names(more often now) run between £9 and £11 this is on a par with the cost of Seven Threads from EQ books including postage. Normal paper packs run at about £7…… at least….

Also this talk of returns I find baffling. Personally I have only returned a book if it has been not been opened, bought by mistake or often at Christmas, received two copies. Once I have started reading it, even if I don't like it, I wouldn't dream of returning it.... but that's just me


Two years, which is the length of the contract for the POD book, is in publishing terms very little. It has taken me over twelve months to get replies from some publishers.