So you want to be the next Tolkien/Jordan?

[Rocket Sheep]

Getting back to the point about getting novel manuscripts through the iron curtains and across the publisher's desk...

Maus99 is on the right track. A nice list of mag publications, a chunky biblio to prove you're a serious writer with more than one idea in you, works wonders.

Yes, it is wrong that a novelist has to learn the short form... and many just can't, but that is the easiest way to get attention to your novel.

What Hol and HE need to do now is get great reviews for 7 Threads and sell the books internationally... but since one is in the UK and one in the US... and I presume they both bought some copies... they are international sellers! Well done, chaps! Many publishers will 'count' a POD book if it has some great independent reviews.

 

[juzzza]

You are all going about it wrong, this is my plan for world publishing domination...

Step1: Become an international performing artist with a top ten selling album in the UK, USA, Australia, NZ, SA and Europe... Tour the world extensively playing in theatre-size venues...

Step2: POD publish your book...

Step3: Sell your book alongside your CDs, T-Shirts and other merchandise at the gig venues...

You see, it's easy...

On POD, 7 threads and so on, I will say this and it's my honest opinion.

We all want the BIG deal, of course we do, we want the advance and we want the marketing clout that goes with the BIG deal...

I doubt there are many authors out there who would turn down mainstream publishers because they want to go it alone and wish to fight against the people controlling the publishing industry LOL.

Neil and EQ Books have a massive perception gap problem to battle against simply because the majority of POD Puiblishers out there do not give a damn about the tripe they put out there as long as they are getting paid, they are into vanity publishing plain and simple... I.E. Hopeless writers pay for 500 copies of their book to be pressed just so they can see their name on a book (usually the 500 copies end up in the loft or basement for poor unfortunate future generations of the author's bloodline).

But EQ is different, and it is because EQ Books realise that every book they publish will either enhance or damage the EQ brand. If EQ is to stand for quality, it has to release quality and as a result, they have a strict quality control process and will only publish books they believe deserve it. Of course this does not take away the uphill battle both EQ and the author have to look forward to simply by being in the POD umbrella.

EQ was right for 7 Threads imho, it closes a chapter on a journey and a project that as H points out, probably most mainstream publishers wouldn't care about without knowing the history behind it.

Whether we like it or not, POD will get cheaper and will become more prominent, there will still be vanity press but I believe eventually there will be a distincton between them, maybe an independent body, which gives a seal of quality for certain POD houses to distinguish between vanity and true POD, which only publishes quality. Something EQ should have a vested interest in.

Sheepy is right too, part of winning the battle for 7 threads is to get sales and decent reviews, which I am sure will happen.

What would I do? Well, I am too busy for writing at the moment and so I don't have the time or patience to seek the BIG deal, but POD is out too right now because I don't have the time or patience to fight the battle facing EQ and H/HE for 7 threads, and that's assuming of course my ms was good enough...

If I had the time my favored route (and my advice) would be to keep churning out short stories and get them published in pro/semi-pro magazines, building a CV with a number of meaningful publish credits... This CV along with samples of your work goes out to agents... Your agent then goes to the publishers to get the deal. Sound simple? LOL... If you get to the decent CV stage you are doing well.

However you look at it, it's hard work and you have to be driven, of that there is no doubt... One of my fave authors (Matthew Reilly) produced his first book 'Contest' via POD and used it as a tool to get the BIG deal, and he certainly did that...

OK, I feel cleansed, thank you for rant-reading... JT

 

[Richardb]

Interesting thread. I too published with EQ and have been very happy. I did it for my own reasons, and not because I don't find the book suitable for any other type of publishing. Actually, quite the opposite, I did not consider going POD until I recieved feedback that I was 'good enough'.
My publishing story is simple.
I submitted to only one 'mainstream' publisher in my time. My book made it out of the slush pile and I actually got an email from a managing editor. They explained that they liked the book and were going to forward it to the owner for a final determination. I was unbelievably excited! To get out of the slush pile on my first try and to get an email! Well, better yet, a month later I recieved another email, this one a personal one from the owner, who stated they liked my book, and might be interested in publishing it, but could not fit it into a publishing schedule for the next year. Frankly, he said, it was good, but he had better works to publish first. He then said, but, in the next year, other stuff could come in an bump it. In other words, he liked it, but not enough to simply sign me up for a contract. He wanted to hold onto it for a while.
Strangely, this was both really exciting (this publisher had published 8 books the prior year and two of the authors won best new author awards in Canada). He was an up and comer and was getting great press. But I also realized what a mess this whole thing was. I did not want to live through these ups and downs. I had what I needed, which was validation. Obviously, the work had merit. Good enough for me. I don't want to be a writer full time, and don't care about the money. I had written something of quality that was 'original' as the publisher said. Shortly after I contacted Erebus at EQ and everything since then had gone exactly as I wished.
POD is not the problem, POD publishers with no standards seeking only to make money from the 'assembly' of crappy books is the problem. Costs are high too, but that will change over time.

 

[Khallandra]

I love reading new authors I do it as often as I can. I generally read whatever catches my attention

 

[funky_fantasist]

Interesting thread...

As a 'new' author with a major publishing house i.e. small fish in a large corporate pond - can I just say this: Getting published is a battle yes, a huge (sometimes all obsessing battle!) BUT IT DOESN'T STOP THERE!

As a 'newbie' you are fighting to get your work read by your target audience. The publisher is looking for you to be an overnight sensation - if possible without them having put any marketing money into the pot at all. In some bizzare warped version of logic, if the publisher has paid you a vast sum of money, they will put everything into your marketing to recoup that money - if they have paid you (as a newbie) a tiny advance, they don't really care enough if you sink or swim. It's still down to you! Robert Holdstock once told me that his biggest efforts in the last twenty years went into keeping his work in print - and that's a mega-star author!

I don't want to dis-hearten anyone because I would be lying if I said the 'highs' were not worth the lows but, it's a minefield out there guys! It's a bit like what happens after the; "and they lived happily ever after..."

I've no experience with POD but it sounds pretty good if the the company is ethical in the way that the company publishing "7 Threads" are - how do I order a copy? I'm guessing there's many less scrupulous out there though?

I THINK in the UK Storm Constantine has set up a POD company (initially to keep her older titles in print!) it's called Immanion Press - my mate Mike Cobley has a collection of short stories coming out with them this year although he is with a mainstream publisher also. Perhaps that's a good use of POD? The big publishers don't want anthology collections (unless you're Stephen King etc) and we all know that many writers enjoy doing short fiction - indeed, learn their craft doing so...

Anyway, I'm waffling on now... God, hope I don't sound bitter and twisted!!!

Hugs
Funky


PS: Erm... you could read MY books! I'm a newbie(ish)! 3rd out in April!!!

 

[milamber_reborn]

POD successes are few and far between unfortunately. We need more small traditional presses to bridge the gap.

 

[Richardb]

Milamber,
I agree, to the extent that success is defined as moving from POD to mainstream, that there are few incidents of this to speak of. However, that is not the only definition of success that folks are working towards.
Anyhow, I could not agree more that more more small presses would be a very good thing for the industry. Frankly, if the cost of printing on demand weren't so high, then many of the more reputable POD publishers may be able to act more traditionally in terms of brick and mortar placements. However, the economics don't work yet. The problem is barriers to entry. I have look carefully at the costs of aquiring a printing press, and lets just say that you have to be able to shell out about 100k and find a space for the machine just be be able to enter the business in a small way. That is a huge barrier, and you have to sell a lot of books to pay back that kind of required investment. And that is before dealing with rent, supplies, etc... Sadly, the simple cost of producing books, and the mechanics of brick and mortar placements and guarentees (returns) will keep the game slim.
Perhaps one of these days the concept of a cooperative press (the writers co-op) will come to light and costs can be defrayed across a wider base and more small presses can work under one roof, thus reducing the barriers to entry.

 

[Hereford Eye]

Perhaps one of these days the concept of a cooperative press (the writers co-op) will come to light and costs can be defrayed across a wider base and more small presses can work under one roof, thus reducing the barriers to entry.

Looks like you've done some investigating. What do you have in mind?

 

[kahnovitch]

Originally posted by Evil Agent
So why would you bring a book that could "knock their socks off" to a POD publisher. If it was that good, wouldn't you be able to get it published in a more standard way?

The problem is that your submission may not even get read.
It could just sit on top of the slush pile for a few months and then go straight into the "recycle" tray (or be mailed back to you if you supplied an SAE).
I used to slip a couple of blank pages into my submissions as I imagined that if anyone was reading it and came across a blank page, (which can happen easily when papers stick a little in the printer feed) they would remove it, put it to one side and continue reading.
My returned submissions were completely intact with blank pages exactly where I'd left them, indicating that it hadn't even been given a cursory glance, much less read from start to finish.

It's hard to get discovered as the next godfather of sci-fi or fantasy when nobody actually reads your work.

 

[Lucky Joe]

Originally Posted by Kahnovitch

I used to slip a couple of blank pages into my submissions as I imagined that if anyone was reading it and came across a blank page, (which can happen easily when papers stick a little in the printer feed) they would remove it, put it to one side and continue reading.

Hehe, that's funny. I remember reading somewhere about editors who take extra special care to replace all the blank pages, upside down pages, strands of hair and so on in exactly the same way they found them. I'm not suggesting that you're wrong, I'm sure there are agents and publishers that don't read all the submissions they receive. it just struck me as funny is all.

 

[kahnovitch]

Originally posted by Lucky Joe


Hehe, that's funny. I remember reading somewhere about editors who take extra special care to replace all the blank pages, upside down pages, strands of hair and so on in exactly the same way they found them. I'm not suggesting that you're wrong, I'm sure there are agents and publishers that don't read all the submissions they receive. it just struck me as funny is all.

Hmm. Maybe I should have slipped a £20 note in there and see if that was returned intact?

 

[ironchef texmex]

The last few posts make an interesting point. It sounds like most of us buy books more for topic than for name value.

But as for going on a crusade to pump money into the industry....

Let me say this: getting form rejection letters doesn't exactly put me in the buying frame of mind. Neither does having a 120k word novel getting sent back the day after it was received. If anybody ever bought something of mine, even just wrote a kind word in the SASE, - subscription? Heck, I'd probably buy stock in the company!

Let's face it, there's not many idealists in this business. Not readers, not writers, not editors, not anywhere. Editors don't read every submission because they don't have enough time. Mags and anthologies are dying because most people don't read short stories anymore. It's reality.

Maybe one day the internet will pick up the slack created when all the pulps went under.

 

[JRMurdock]

For those who are interested and may not have found it yet (it also just came to my attention from Abby, thanks Abby!). Piers Anthony (don't cringe yet) appears to be partners with a publisher. At least he used the name from one of his Xanth books: Man from Mundania. They have few titles and this is one company you can submit directly to the publisher.

Mundanian Press

I went and read all their contracts, leagal info, FAQs--I do this with any new publisher I come across. Everything is legit. They've signed very few books so far and over half are Piers himself. The only reason I didn't submit to Mundanian Press was because of Piers himself. One of the main books on the site is Pornucopia. Now I'll admit to owning this book as well as nearly all Piers's titles. I'm a big fan. BUT I don't want my work associated with smutty fantasy, despite how much of it I read over the years. I may submit once they have a larger author list and more books that aren't so sexually overt in their content. But my books are aiming for the Juvinile Fantasy market and this publisher wasn't a good fit.

If anyone does choose to submit here, I'd love to hear what happens. According to the site, they've got a 60-120 day turn around on manuscripts. No Fees, They handle everything (ISBN, Cover Art, printing...everything) except push the book on readers. There are also NO I repeat NO advances paid, but the book, compared to POD and self-pub, are very competitive with major publishing houses. This is a great chance for people to get in on the start of a publisher and at least get their book in print. Good luck to any who persue. I just wish I had a title that would mesh well with others on the site.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Originally posted by maus99
. BUT I don't want my work associated with smutty fantasy, despite how much of it I read over the years. I may submit once they have a larger author list and more books that aren't so sexually overt in their content. But my books are aiming for the Juvinile Fantasy market and this publisher wasn't a good fit.

Might I ask by smutty and sexually overt, what do you mean? Erotic, an adult story for adults or porn? There is a fine line between them. One man's porn is another's erotic/adult. It is degrees of content.

I admit I write adult stories for adults, sex is part of adult life. Been accused of writing porn *g* though my work is less graphic than what you would find on day time soaps...

As for Juvinile Fantasy market, which age group. under 15 or 15 to 18... The reason I ask is I was advised by one editor, on reading my book, that with editing it would be suitable for the 15 to 18. This surprised me as I considered it an "adult" book. The only thing I was advised to cut was the sexual content, not the violence, not the bad language.... Seems strange I can show the hero killing some one, swearing like a trooper, but not courting the love of his life....

As for the publisher it seems interesting.....

 

[JRMurdock]

Well, if you didn't guess from the title of Pornucopia, it's definately Above R (as one of the main characters is a succubus) and just below X. It's more your late-night, softcore porn in most parts. It's his adult version of Xanth as it's very punny. In a land where Farts are magic. Personally I'm amazed it ever saw print. Most of his older works are straight sci-fi or fantasy and as he got older, he grew into his dirty old man phase and never left it. In his latest book, a 13 year old boy is seduced by a succubus (he's got a thing for them I guess).

My book has mild violence, small amounts of blood, a beheading during a battle, and a drunken dwarf (are there any other kind?). There's no sex, no romance (yet), and no religious overtones. It's intended for under 15. My reading audience has ranged from 10-55 and has been well received by all so I'm HOPING it'll cross the age gap. But my book is most definately PG and the series will remain PG for the run. There'll be romance, but I'll fade the scene as the people disappear into the room.

At some point I'll write a more adult novel, but I'll have to grow up first...

 

[Susan Boulton]

Titles and marketing can say one thing, contents another... If you want to hype something up you highlight the small section of "spice"

Stephen King is graphic in language, sexual content and violence, yet is one of the most read authors by young people in the 15 to 18 bracket...... *shrugs shoulders*

Piers Anthony is not a writer I have read much of anyway....

Not sure of the US ratings you quoted... but assume R is equal to our 15 or 18 cert.....

 

[mistri]

Editors do read every submission (maybe not the ones written in crayon or on pink paper) - but they don't need to read every page, or even more than one to make a decision sometimes. Being a competent writer isn't enough, you have to grab an editor in the same way you'd have to grab a reader - you have to force them to want to read on.

When I finish my current WIP I will be sending it out to non-POD publishers, only because I believe that it is good enough that an editor or agent somewhere will enjoy it. If they send it back quickly having only read a couple of pages it's my fault - no one else's - for not writing a book that was good enough (okay, there are other reasons too, like personal taste, but generally you just need a damn good book).

I don't buy POD books. I'm sure there are some good authors in there but a)I don't see them in the shops b)they're rarely recommended to me so I don't look them up on the net/order them either c)much of the time they go through no selection process. Yes, I've read some published stuff I haven't liked, but I feel it's less of a risk to spend £7 on a non-POD published book, where an editor at the very least will have approved it, than spending way more money on a book which may have only been selected for financial reasons. Maybe if I was more knowledgeable about different POD publishers things would change, but maybe not - the books would still be more expensive, and I'd still have a very huge to-read pile.

 

[ironchef texmex]

Originally posted by mistri
Editors do read every submission (maybe not the ones written in crayon or on pink paper) - but they don't need to read every page, or even more than one to make a decision sometimes. Being a competent writer isn't enough, you have to grab an editor in the same way you'd have to grab a reader - you have to force them to want to read on.

Of course there is no substitute for quality. The majority of works published in the traditional manner are and should generally be of a higher quality than unpublished material( if they weren't then editors would serve no purpose).

However, writing is still art. It will always be more subjective than objective. I think that you covered this when you mentioned their personal preferences, but I have a case in point to hammer the message home.

The first book in Stephen R. Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever" series was rejected eleven times before finally finding a home. Nothing in the manuscript changed in between the eleventh rejection and the first acceptance and I sincerely doubt that it was written in crayon or on pink paper.

An editor took a chance on an unknown. A lot of people at this sight are still waiting and hoping for that first editor to take a chance on them.

 

[Abby]

To be honest...

I give new authors a fair chance, and have shelled out $15+ for unknowns and PODs. But unfortunately, I've read a few of those that made me wince and not finish the book. Complete crap--sometimes they haven't even grammar checked the book. That's NOT to say that good unknown writers don't exist. I believe I'm one of them, and I have read others. But they are few and far between...and all the crap out there hurts the chances for the rest of us to get read or published. POD and small press books have a bad rep for a reason. I wish they didn't, but they've earned it.

Of course, if all of my mainstream submissions fail, I will be out there trying POD and radio advertising. You betcha.

Ironchef texmex -- I hated that first Thomas Covenant book. The writing was actually professional level, but the character had no redeemable qualities whatsoever. I stopped reading halfway through. Had I been an editor, I wouldn't have published it. There are more deserving stories out there.

J.R./Maus99 -- Hey, I don't want more competition! As for smutty fantasy...hey, that stuff sells to a fan base.

Holbrook -- I started reading Stephen King at age 11/12, and it scarred me for life. I'm still a fan, though. May I ask about your experience with mainstream publishers? Did they always send you form rejections, or did they provide reasonable feedback? If so, which ones were reasonable? Which ones had the best reply times? Were the novels you submitted to them your very first attempts at novel writing, or were they your 5th, 6th, 7th (etc) completed novel?

I do have one submission currently at Baen Books, and one at Mundania Press. The novel at Mundania was rejected from LTDBooks and Renaissance E-Books, but I have a strong suspicion that the latter never read my submission, and the former probably did not read beyond the first chapter. I hope that Mundania will read the MS and give it an honest chance--I believe it's worthy. I have even more confidence (and fears) about my other novel, which waits in the monstrous e-slushpile at Baen.

~Abby
http://www.abbygoldsmith.com/

 

[JRMurdock]

Not to dampen your spirits, but I had sent my book to the e-slush pile at baen last year. I also added a read/delivery recipt. I got notification when it was received and also got the recipt when it was deleted. Unread. They never even opened the e-mail. I guess they said "Well, it's been here nine months now. Let's delete it).

I'll not submit to Baen again. Though I am looking at TOR once I finish my latest hack job on Book 1 due to some constructive critisism.