The 8....um....uh 9 tribes of SF

For anyone who can read...?

You asked is all fiction then equally worthy. I asked equally worthy to whom, meaning what audience specifically are you talking about. You said all readers. So your question then is, is all fiction equally worthy to all readers. And the answer to that is yes, all fiction is equally worthy on average to all readers. Because all readers are different people who find different things worthy. Therefore, you do not have a situation where one set of fiction is more worthy than another to all. You have people who value one set of fiction over another and they do not agree which sets those are. According to many, no story that involves SFF elements is worthy. To many others, if a story doesn't contain SFF elements, it is not worthy. So worthiness doesn't even enter into the purview of the article.

More to the point, you claim Walter wasn't stating which set of SFF was worthy and which was not. So again, worthiness is quite irrelevant.

That's your conclusion. I didn't see any of that in the article. I saw Walter describe some content-level and construct-level literary approaches prevalent, from his perspective, in modern science fiction. I didn't come to anything like the conclusion you're presenting here.

Seriously? This was not an academic piece, Fung, where Walter unemotionally describes different types of SFF (which he does badly most of the time.) His bit on the military SF Conservatives was a direct barrage at the puppies and dripping with disapproval, without even mentioning one author. But he also continually framed his piece as certain types of things supposedly traditional and commercial and fine for those who like them while other categories he made up that had fiction he liked, he lauded as pushing the boundaries, etc. He likes darker, eco-focused stuff. It's quite clear in the article and perfectly alright for him to like it. But dividing and defining SFF readers by his personal preferences isn't particularly insightful. Especially when he got genres, market categories and the history of SFF fiction frequently wrong.

Condescending? I didn't feel talked down to or preached at in any way. Nor did I find it meaningless. Are you sure you're not interjecting your point of view for the universal? ;)

My entire response was my opinion and point of view, as was yours, except where I corrected Walter's piece on actual facts. I did find his piece meaningless and I explained why I did so.

I'm approaching this article on its own statements at the moment. I've never read anything ever written by this person before, so I have no idea what else he may have said to deserve this accusation, but I didn't see anything in there particularly sexist.

Yeah, that's part of the problem, that you didn't see that. Walter's Sexy Beasts tribe is an old and erroneous view of many women SFF fans, where they are dismissed as not real fans who supposedly mostly like sex and romance, and a lot of women written SFF fiction. He presents them as women readers who want SFF porn and like sex and romance that is dominance oriented. He's trying, inaccurately, to describe the market sub-category of paranormal romance, (as for actual genre movements in romance, he has utterly no clue or interest,) and uses a sexist stereotype to supposedly describe their interests. He then lists women authors as examples who are NOT paranormal romance writers and are instead doing different kinds of fantasy. They aren't part of any romance genre either. But Walter dismisses them as books full of sex for mainly horny women. And this is reflective of the sexism issues that women SFF writers have long been facing in the publishing industry that affect their careers (and throughout fiction in general,) in how their books are marketed (such as feminized or erotic spine twister covers, less money than the men,) how they are frequently dismissed as romance and not real SFF authors even when actually doing thrillers, how they are ignored in general by reviewers as romance-based and getting less media attention (and yes, they've studied it.) Walter's description of areas of the market and women authors he doesn't seem to know much about was condescending, ignorant and dismissive, in my opinion, and I'm not going to debate with you whether I have a right to an opinion. :) I thought it was sexist and casually tossed off to boot, and I did not find it endearing.

Technically, stereotypes cannot be outdated.

Fine. Outdated and inaccurate portraits of SFF readers that offer no real insight and just regurgitate harmful and/or annoying old myths about SFF fiction and its fans.

And while we're at it, what do booksellers have to do with his points at all? In the opening of the post Walter states that he is making a point about apparent camps within SF irrespective of market considerations.

Yes, that's what he says he's doing. But that's not what he does. He briefly and inaccurately mentions New Wave, but doesn't make the genre a tribe. He makes New Weird -- a genre movement that is also now a small market sub-category -- a tribe without calling it New Weird and not being very clear about what it is. And he has the military conservatives who supposedly like books he doesn't name, which is just the puppies, who aren't really a tribe and certainly it is not a genre. His other tribes are based on market categories. Hard SF is not a genre movement, it's a marketing sub-category. There are genre movements within hard SF, but I don't think he knows them. He just sees it as "old" SF for old readers. Which is totally not the case about what's actually going on in that sub-field. He tries paranormal romance (market sub-category,) YA fiction (market category,) and eco-fiction, which is both genre movement and market sub-category, and then he tries to lump some other dystopias in with it. Within dystopia, there are various genre movements. But Walter is going for broad, so instead of genre, he concentrates on bookselling categories, including "commercial" story-telling which is not a genre, but a bookselling term borrowed as a catch-all of widely disparate fiction, including numerous genres. He's not describing actual groups of SFF readers. He's describing what he thinks fans of various bookmarket sub-categories actually want from them. Badly.

Of course we should delve into the parameters of his assertions. But as far as an entirely under-justified "noticing" of large scale, highly generalized trends goes, I wouldn't say this blog post is too far off the mark. It is not a systematized review of the entirety of modern SF using SFL genre analysis in a post-structuralism, post-formalist, post-theory whatever-the-bleep nonsense gibberish uber thought blah blah blah...

Okay, first off, you're the one always wanting to do post-structuralist, post-formalist, etc. and badgering me because I don't. :) And then you bring up modern genre studies -- academic, while telling me not to be academic. Second, I didn't say he's academically wrong. I said he's factually wrong on a number of points, which he is. About big generalized trends. (And big generalized trends actually do have to do with market categories, as well as the more academic genre lit movements.) His description of current trends was poor. His SFF history by which he tried to describe the tribes he made up was largely wrong. He mixed up authors. He dismissed a lot of fiction in big cross-category globs as just commercial, predictable and boring, which is not a genre by any stretch of the definition. He keeps trying to meld groups of fantasy readers and SF readers for very different types of books together thematically, except the supposedly connecting themes don't always make sense. This post could have been written in 1986, but it's supposed to be about modern tribes of SFF readers.

I fully support Walter being a progressive guy who likes eco-fiction. But this particular piece was poorly done and out of touch. He's done ones much better. And that seems to be the majority agreement out in the fandom/SFF media about it, from what I read at the time it came out. They called it clickbait. And it is clickbait. But it's old, kneejerk clickbait, in my opinion, which surprised me coming from this particular writer.

Before SF existed, where was Frankenstein shelved?

In general fiction, where Frankenstein is STILL shelved. The North American SF category market is not the entire SF field. If it were, then again, The Girl in the Road, which Walter references, would not be SF because it was published and sold in general fiction. The SF category market is an additional market of SF, which contains many different genres of SF within it, not a genre definition of SF. It is a book-selling device. If they got rid of it tomorrow, they'd still sell SF. You still confuse book-selling and marketing issues with writing genres and themes. As does Walter.

But more complex than that, the techno-thriller buzz category doesn't just slot entirely into this or that genre category -- it actually ends up being subdivided and reallocated entirely, often into multiple genres -- some of which collapse, disappear, and are likewise eaten up by the backwards looking aggregating process of genre.

So you're talking about people making classification systems. Which are then evaluated and either used by others as useful or discarded as not useful or accurate. I don't find Walter's poor attempt at a sloppy classification system useful. He is not describing actual genres.

You characterize his post as some vitriolic, women-hating, prejudiced work of an asinine pseudo-intellectual, I'm beginning to suspect your beef is with the author, not the point he's trying to make.

No, I don't characterize it as any of that. I don't think it's vitriolic, except towards the puppies, and I can't bring myself to get that annoyed about that, but even as a barrage towards them, he did it much more poorly than he usually does. Woman-hating and casual sexism that is problematic are not the same thing. We live in a sexist society and Walter is regurgitating common sexist stuff -- declaring romance fiction to be full of sex and its readers motivated by horniness, declaring women authors to be romance authors when they are not and dismissing their work as soft porn, etc. He's not going after them or hating them, he's just being lazy. But it's these cultural attitudes that have caused real business problems for women SFF authors in the field. And Walter, being a progressive author who is aware of these problems and has even if I recall written about them sometimes, then going along with a retro-view that was also wildly inaccurate was surprising. And annoying. I also don't think Walter is an asinine pseudo-intellectual. I think he wrote a poor piece to be deliberately provocative. I don't think he made any useful point at all. And I've read things written by him that were way, way better than this. I don't have a beef with him. I just thought his tribes piece was stupid. Even if he had done a better job on his other tribes, the fact that he lazily created an everything else commercial storytelling category (which apparently includes all but one type of horror fiction,) would have made me feel the piece was poor and had little to do with SFFH readers.

Earlier, you claimed that the market categories are just for selling stuff in bright shiny new packages and don't really mean anything because the books don't change and the content doesn't really matter, and now you're saying that it matters because it's unfair to lump the kind of stories inside all of these categories together.

That's not actually what I said either, Fung. But I'm sure we'll be ringing that bell again later down the road at some point. :) Basically, you like to pretend that market categories and lit genres are the same thing when it suits you and then argue that they are different when it doesn't. They are different but they are inter-related, since a genre can also become a marketing sub-category, and since we call some market categories "genres" because that's the habit that developed. And they are both far more sub-divided than people making big generalized claims about fiction and readers like to pretend. But a piece about the thirty tribes of SFF readers would have been ungainly, so Walter made a hash with eight, which he then turned into a vague nine.
 
You know that I was mostly just messing with you, right? ;)

To tell the truth, I didn't think anything of this when I first encountered it. It seemed like classic identity politics parading as intellect. But you seemed to be taking it too seriously, so I thought I'd stir the pot.

Otherwise, this is our classic argument about boxes.
 
As much as we might try to suggest otherwise, it's not going to change. I take Damien's point but it all sounds a bit like people trying to justify the genre - 'this isn't science-fiction, it's better' and so forth.

I concur with you. I feel as if this guy is trying to dye the Pepsi a fancy new color so he can market it as "Pepsi Blue" in an attempt to wedge his personal "relevance" into the mix, but he needs to stop trying to "fix" what isn't broken. This also reminds me of that time in the 90's when people came out with all these non-sensical names for rock bands. "Oh, isn't rock, it's 'Indo Trash Pop'! Get with it already!'

...Every genre has "commercial storytellers", although the erotica genre is unlikely to have many "YA adventurers" (even though I sometimes get the impression that "adult" really means "juvenile" in this context, so who knows?).
Thanks Dawnstorm, I just spit my coffee out laughing.

@KatG, as usual I do not have any earthly idea where to begin when it comes to your posts. I got this sense that Walter was calling some of the audiences/authors "Literary Hipsters", which seems to be the cultural boogie man at the moment. In the 90's the term was "Poser". It happens every generation. Let me know if I'm off the mark here, but this writer is reminding me of one of my husband's professors: This guy refers to car ports/canopies as "architectural artifacts", and this is but ONE example of this guy's esoteric intellectual masturbation to himself. He's supposed to be an architecture professor, yet hasn't/won't work on any building projects. Rather, he creates conceptual "exhibits", such as hanging orange barrels from "architectural artifacts" (*cough*it's a canopy, damn it!*cough*) and calling it "cutting edge art". Then claims that the current architects around town (who HAVE constructed buildings) don't know what is "really going on" and are not "pushing any boundaries" (same terms as Walter). These professionals can only shake their heads as they repeat to him: "It's a damn canopy. Now shut up." These two errant people, IMHO, are hitting the same nerves for me.

At the end of the day, I think SF and Fantasy are just elements of setting. Some books have stronger plot ties to their settings and will change too much if severed. Other stories, however, are the same regardless of setting.

Take C.L. Moore's "No Woman Born" for example. A woman dies in a fire, but is saved by a master machinist who plugs her brain into an automaton. But however will she re-integrate into the world?? That plot would still remain if I swap out the machinist and automaton element for a Necromancer and a "fresh body"; or a Wizard and a brass golem construct, or an Alchemist trading bodies for this woman using the Philosopher's Stone; the list goes on. And so does the story, even if I switch out the SF setting for a Fantasy setting.

Another example: "50 Shades of Grey" supposedly started as a "fan fiction" of the "Twilight" series. Therefore, we essentially have Bella and Edward still, but the paranormal romance/fantasy setting has been swapped out for a mundane romance setting. People still love it, because they love that core mechanic of Bella and Edward (... for some ghastly reason, but hey, this is subjective, right?)

And then other stories would be remiss if severed from the SF setting, or at least David Brin's "Uplift" series would change too much for me if one removed the speculative science of "Uplifting" (making a species Sophont) and substituted it with Magic.

Am I off the mark here? I'm sure you'll tell me where I'm wrong, ;)
 
This also reminds me of that time in the 90's when people came out with all these non-sensical names for rock bands. "Oh, isn't rock, it's 'Indo Trash Pop'! Get with it already!'

I was going to mention the music scene as an analogy for this categorization stuff, but decided against it as Kat would instantaneously respond with a 15 page diatribe about how the publishing market and music markets are utterly unalike and therefore non-comparable... (we've been down this road too many times over the last decade...)

But, as an analogy, I think the internet recently has had a similar effect for writing and tribalism/camps/genre proliferation as what we saw in the mid 60s with the cassette tape, and then again in the 80s with the CD, and then again in the 90s with the internet.

For publishing, if you look at the most fertile periods of genre proliferation, they correspond also to technological advancements in print technologies -- the press in late 15th century leads to a rapid increase in literacy and textual production, then when the press becomes mechanized we see works of greater length coming out, then fast forward through a couple other approaches to mechanized printing through lithography and bubblejet. This results in alterations to the distribution of literature and there its availability and transmissibility for audiences, some of whom will become those who produce literature with an altered/expanded body of influences, which then get remixed and yada yada.

The intersection between technological development and genre development should be fairly obvious to everyone by now, so I won't belabour the point. Who could have imagined that a Direct-To-Video model for feature film would become something new and exciting as we see it now with Netflix, Hulu, and the like?

But, following from these "redefining" periods, there emerge certain trends and styles that require some time to see -- thus, the genre creating conversations, not altogether dissimilar from what this Walter article is about. Whether or not the change is real, the "ground" has shifted (in a McLuhanean sense), and so the framework by which we understand our media correspondingly must adapt.

The genres-ad-absurdia (screw you, latin!) music genres in the pop music scene through the 60s to 90s arises from this same process, and all those wonky titles like Post-Punk, Post-Rock and whathaveyou reflect the early efforts to dissociate and discriminate between trend lines that are, in fact, observable. But, those early efforts in genre definition usually are far too myopic and are driven by non-professionals who are engaged more in identity politics than they are in actual analysis of form and function.

It doesn't invalidate their comments, though, IMO -- in fact, just the opposite. It's absolutely essential to fostering the conversation as it becomes progressively more disciplined. There are huge parallels here to the advent of "English" as a field of study that elevated the written work to place it still enjoys today, of this "truth telling" function that spreads between the puerile and the near scriptural. As readers and writers, we are still very much in the grip of 19th Century social theory for literature, and this conversation reflects that purposeful redefinition of "literature" and its social/moral/ethical function.

So, I'm not too concerned about what Walter has to say in its specifics -- people will construct patterns based on whatever information they have. If they don't share that thought with anyone else, the thought never develops. I just like that it sparks debate, because it's the debate that fosters intellectual curiosity and engagement with both oppositional and celebratory creativity. AKA genres.

At the end of the day, I think SF and Fantasy are just elements of setting.

Partly. Technically speaking, for a genre to be a genre, there are also language elements (structures and whatnot) and conventions that are necessary for a genre to be a genre. Setting is one such convention.

And then other stories would be remiss if severed from the SF setting, or at least David Brin's "Uplift" series would change too much for me if one removed the speculative science of "Uplifting" (making a species Sophont) and substituted it with Magic.

And this is, really, is the difference between a "proper" genre work and a "dressed up" genre work. Sometimes the SFnal elements is vital in its specificity, sometimes it's vital in it conventional type (for example, The Walking Dead's horde of zombies could just a readily be some kind of invasion of aliens). But when it's actually unnecessary to the story, then technically speaking it's not actually a work within the genre.

Technically... (but there's no really well defined line... just a lot of grey.)

I'm sure you'll tell me where I'm wrong, ;)

tee hee :D
 
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Fung Koo, I do take your meaning about the slow growth of new subgenres (or should I call it tribes?). It's easy to see the thematic influences of dystopic "high tech and low life" atmospheres begin to simmer into literature during the 70's; authors like Zelazny began to "dabble" with "computer powers" in the 70's. But it took about another decade for people to realize something "new" was really coming together by the time Bruce Bethke released his short story, "Cyberpunk", in 1983. Then curiously enough, it took yet another year after that for William Gibson to release "Neuromancer" in 1984, and only then did the populace seem to come to a consensus about aggregating these thematic works under the one name, "Cyberpunk", and somehow Gibson went down in history as the "father of Cyberpunk" (even though the title was not his own, and really he's the father of "Cyberspace", but that's just humanity for ya).
 
authors like Zelazny began to "dabble" with "computer powers" in the 70's. But it took about another decade for people to realize something "new" was really coming together by the time Bruce Bethke released his short story, "Cyberpunk", in 1983. Then curiously enough, it took yet another year after that for William Gibson to release "Neuromancer" in 1984, and only then did the populace seem to come to a consensus about aggregating these thematic works under the one name, "Cyberpunk", and somehow Gibson went down in history as the "father of Cyberpunk" (even though the title was not his own, and really he's the father of "Cyberspace", but that's just humanity for ya).

A good example, for sure. The content focus (cyber) and the treatment (punk) become a genre. But, Gibson gets the credit mostly because a genre proper needs time (and retrospection) to actually become a set of conventions.

Correspondingly, there's all the debate about what constitutes the moment SF actually becomes a genre. The truth is that no single work really can be said to have started it -- there's a whole long lead-in of proto-SF stuff that eventually starts to coalesce into the set of conventions we call SF, which itself is never 100% fully defined. Like human consciousness itself, at first it's all chaos and individualized examples, and over time it becomes patterned and a type of thing is slowly defined, differentially and discriminatorily, but only understood and defined in a fairly general way.

But a lot of people like their world to have clear lines instead of fuzzy ones. And then some see a new line within the fuzz. So discussion happens and the borders shift around. Rinse, repeat.

It's good fun :)
 
You are absolutely right, not to mention the debate on what your own works in progress may or may not be. I have what I believe to be a Cyberpunk WiP, as there is the focus on the "high-tech" portion of a dystopic future. But then again, my "treatment" may not be "punk" enough as it goes more into military thriller-esque conflicts to propel the plot forward. So where would that leave it then? Is it a Cyberthriller? Cybermacabre? Am I allowed to invent a new genre or do I need Gibson's blessing?

Speaking of which, can you elaborate to me on what you think "focus" and "treatment" are in relation to literature?
 
A. Lynn, you're going to get somewhat different answers from me and Fung on this. I cannot do tonight, but will try tomorrow.
 
Speaking of which, can you elaborate to me on what you think "focus" and "treatment" are in relation to literature?

Sure :) Of course, let's remember the disclaimers about fuzziness and widespread disagreement on these matters. Like Kat suggested, you'll get enormously variable responses on this topic. My own approach is to listen to all the variety and make up my own mind about what works for me when I'm writing.

So, a "genre" by itself doesn't really get to be called a genre if we don't expect certain things of it. The classic examples are Detective Fiction and The Western. I mention these two because they are usually pretty clearly defined for most people.

Detective Fiction, which is pretty much the oldest of the fiction genres (in a more modern context, anyway), has a fairly standard setup and a fairly common set of techniques used to develop the narrative. Plot-wise: Something happens, cause/motive unknown, usually a theft or a murder, and the Detective is called in. The Detective has a personality quirk of some kind (character) making them uniquely suited to the task, but also dangerously complicit in some kind of possible boundary crossing (think Irene Adler and Moriarty, both being the same sort of character as the Detective). While there is interplay between the characters and all of that, the core thread in the story is the Procedural Drama -- there is emphasis on how the Detective solves the mystery, and the steps involved tend to be what creates the drama.

This basic formula is true of nearly all Procedural Dramas -- whether it's Grey's Anatomy, CSI, or Asimov's robot novels (all of which are examples of SF, it's worth pointing out).

The other thing we expect are certain tricks in the telling of the story. Sometimes it's the type of language used, but in the case of Detective Fiction/Procedural Dramas, most of the drama in the story comes from the delayed released of information. The plot is structured to follow the revelations of the detective, usually, but as we know from Sherlock Holmes, we follow his reasoning up to a certain point and then the author withholds Holmes' conclusion until the grand reveal. This is usually achieved by having the primary detective character actually be secondary to the character that occupies the space of narrative sympathy, or point of view -- poor ignorant Watson, who is really just an avatar for us, the reader, within the story.

So, content-wise, the "content focus" of the story is the mystery and the steps involved in solving it. Treatment-wise, the difference between a Detective story and something that is more or less identical in most ways (like 2 Broke Girls, for example, AKA the worst show on television, which when you think about it content-wise unfolds in almost the exact same way as a detective story in every episode) is how the procedure is undertaken and how the conclusions are revealed. The delay-of-information tactic common to a lot of detective fiction is a writing convention that pertains to how the story is structured.

Focus, therefore, is usually the stuff we think of in terms of the core subject matter and its importance to/delivery in plot, theme, and whatnot. In your standard SF story, this tends to be the world building elements and the central dilemma (ideally arising from the world building) that gets the story to unfold. So, the "cyber" portion is probably pretty important to your WiP, and the central conflict likely arises from it.

The treatment tends to have to do with other attributes that influence the writing itself, and this is where it all can get suuuuuuuper murky. Most of the disagreement about genre stuff seems to happen here, from my perspective.

High Fantasy is a fairly clear example. We expect a lot of "apparent" archaism in the language, and a certain "elevation" of the language into a myth-like storytelling mode.

If you think of A Clockwork Orange as an example, it's the nature of the content-focus and its characters that influence the treatment. Or Riddley Walker, as another example. The "sensawonder" notion as a defining feature of SF comes from this treatment side of the equation, too -- it has to do with textual revelling in the description of the SFnal "stuff" (the laser guns, the space stations, their inner workings, the mechanics of the dystopian society, explaining how The Force works, etc).

This is likewise true of the punk side of the cyberpunk, steampunk, etc., genres. The "punk" refers to the usually lower class but relatively smart character with a somewhat anti-establishment position or a marginalized one (so, some cross over with the content-focus informing the treatment). Some kind of outsider, in other words, who is probably going to run afoul of those in positions of power (but probably not all that dissimilar in actual social status). There tends to be a lot of slang and slumming it, and a focus on explaining/showing how the underworld works beneath a power structure.

Regardless, the two are highly intertwined -- if they weren't, it would be a genre. In reality, the two ends are probably indivisible (or, for a well told story, they should be indivisible). But, commonalities exist between the two separately form one work to another, and that's how/why we get so-called "subgenres." Substitute the word "cyber" for science and the work "punk" for "fiction" -- SF at the highest level just means some kind of revelling in technology, with one or more levels of specificity, so in cyber- it's the cyber:science aspect, and the "fiction" just means a mode of storytelling, and "punk" is the characteristic style.

Going back to Grey's Anatomy, as a medical Procedural Drama, the SFnal element of the advanced medical tech and surgical practices doesn't usually share equal emphasis with the drama, but the SFnal aspect tends to bother regardless. Even the Procedure is less relevant than the character drama, though, which is apparent when you consider a show like House as another example of an SF-ish medical Procedural Drama. Nurse Jackie, as another point of comparison, has no SFnal element, and the Procedure comparatively occupies very little space either. These are three ways in which treatment and focus intertwine to shift around the notion of drama, and none of these shows are even all that different from one another.

Perhaps a simpler way to outline the difference between content and treatment is if we start with the idea of the story of a murder. Content-wise, the murder is the murder and it's going to happen, either "on screen" or "off". The treatment, though, will dictate some of what we place emphasis on in the content -- we can tell the story from the perspective of the one who is murdered, the detective who tries to solve the murder, the family of the victim, or of the murderer. This defines a narrative point of view and narrative sympathy/perspective. The way the content is characterized depends greatly on the point of view, and it will inform where/when we enter the story (do we start in media res? do we start in the aftermath?).

Probably you can imagine that different points of view tend to be feel more likely for certain starting positions -- note that I said "feel" and not "are," because in a factual check against actual titles, the "sense" of genre is always different than its reality. This tends to be what people try to codify, and usually with only limited success, but genre is not an actual thing, per se -- it's a placeholder; or, in another way of expressing it, it's an ideology of literature.

And I mean here "ideology" in a theory sense, somewhere between Marx, Lacan, and Kristeva, pertaining to how language mediates culture and how literature arises from it/loops back into it.

In short: how the artifice is setup for delivery informs the treatment, and the elements of the world inform the focus, and vice versa. The mix to make a thing we call a text, and over time texts develop trends and normalizing practices in focus and treatment, separately and together, that creates diversity in the types we perceive and create.
 
Okay that's a lot to bite off and chew and may take me a while to grasp, but I'll give it my first shot now. I will attempt to re-iterate what you've stated.

~~ Genre ~~
I liked that you brought up detect and medical drama, because there's a lot of these out there and I learn best by compare and contrast methods. It's clear that we, the audience, DO expect different things from these two "genres", as you noted, even if these two genres have some elements that overlap.

For detective stories I expect it to start with a mortality (most of the time) which becomes the main conundrum, and I expect to see some interesting quirks from the detective as they solve the case and deal with their flaws.

For medical dramas, I expect it to start with people's personality flaws and life's "little" conundrums, all while watching doctors prevent mortality as a larger, bigger conundrum.

Both genres involve personality quirks; conundrums; and dealing with mortality.

~~ Focus and Treatment ~~
The FOCUS of these stories is inherent in the would-be genre; as stated, detective dramas will focus on the crime and the stream of information that is exacted out of the evidence. But various shows TREAT these things differently. CSI revels in the actual process of uncovering evidence and all the science thereof, and they exaggerate the biological/technological impacts of things with fun but impossible special effects to communicate this reveling. It's the exact same focus/topic as Law and Order or NCIS, but they come at it differently. NCIS focuses more on personality quirks and the mystery of people's lives as they explore death and threat to the nation. Law and Order has a more noir treatment, focusing on the underbelly of society and what leads to murder.

We can go even further off the "normalcy" wagon and look at Who Framed Roger Rabbit, which IS a detective story... But it doesn't start with a mortality and the content (focus) is treated very different than most detective dramas. But even in such a zany setting, we KNOW a mortality is coming. Don't we? We expect that murder to happen.

~~ More on Treatment ~~
Here is where it can get fun! House, although a different genre altogether and a different FOCUS perhaps, has the same TREATMENT of it's contents and focus as CSI, when you really think about it. That reveling in the science and procedure of solving a mystery seems to blend quite easily with CSI. House even shares more of it's FOCUS with detective stories than other medical dramas, because House wants to "solve the case". If I remember correctly, House IS actually based on Sherlock Holmes, but he's being forced to FOCUS on medical procedures instead of murders. We can take House's same focus, strip away the treatment of reveling in a medical mystery and the procedure to solve it, and put in more goofy elements, with an anxious MC who daydreams a lot, and you would instead get Scrubs. Still the same Focus (medical procedures and solving problems), but different Treatments?

Did I hit this right?

P.S. @KatG, I understand completely that you and Fung Koo are diametric minds, and that's part of why I enjoy watching you two interact, as vehement as either of you are. I still agree with you that the article has a condescending, pompous overtone to it, and I don't think he gauged the "tribes" very well at all. But I'm always willing to learn and re-learn things, especially from someone with as much grace and wisdom as you.
 
Yeah, that's the basic relationship between them, Virangelus.

So you end up with this structural situation where you can have two stories that would be, for all intents and purposes, exactly identical -- except the two tellers told the stories differently. By contrast, you can have two completely different stories about things utterly unalike, but the treatments can be stylistically/structurally/etc, for all intents and purposes, exactly identical.

So "content-focus" and "treatment," in a very basic way, serve as a structure to understand the difference between all the elements that make up genre. Different people delineate the elements differently, of course, but I like this way, personally, because it makes sense to me -- and because it allows me to make sense of how it is that I inevitably read/watch the same story over and over and over and over again, yet it can be done comparatively uniquely even still.

It has to be said that genre is also very confusing because you can have genres determined by subject matter that are actually intersections of many different elements of other genres -- like the medical drama examples, aside from the surface similarities that they're all set in hospitals/about doctors, you could parachute these sorts of stories into nearly any other genre. There's no reason you couldn't write a story that's more or less "House" exactly but in a traditional Fantasy setting, and House is actually a diagnosmagician instead of a diagnostician.

Then there would inevitably de a debate as to whether the story really is this genre or that, because it becomes a question of which aspect takes precedence -- the procedure, or the fantasy setting and its allegorical function? Of course it's both, really, and neither invalidates the other, but people like to argue and stake claims for this or that.

Anyway... As a writer, the reason I like this idea for genre is that it makes it easy to experiment with treatments/approaches. I have a technological-singularity SF world WiP that's been going for a long time about a world where post-humans all live in towers and our biology has become cybernetic and consciousness networked. The ground was thought to have been uninhabitable, but of course there were survivors, and at some point the two cultures meet and have conflict. I want to make some thematic point about the relationship between order and chaos, and the two social groups are meant to represent that. I started writing the story in a very noir, hard-boiled detective fiction style mixed with some Matrix-y cyber-y, steampunky-ish elements.

I increasingly grew tired of writing in this style, as I felt like it made the world feel like it was all flash and no substance. The treatment I was using made the order/disorder thematic core far too obvious, as well (every scene seemed to clout me over the head with the contrast between the post-humans and the humans, and I wanted some subtlety). At worst, it reminded me the blighted captain in Revelation Space (a book I loathed) and The Twins from the second Matrix movie (ugh). Empty, stylish pap, IMO.

But overall, I still thought the flow of events I worked out was pretty good. So I set that draft aside and tried adjusting the treatment. Instead of having such overtly stylized characters, I started softening the differences between the two cultures. Didn't like it. I changed the main POV character from a sort of CIA type guy into a doctor in one draft treatment. I didn't like that much, either. I changed the MC into a more regular everyday sort of fellow (I've tried maintenance worker, systems programmer, immigration officer...), but that ended up feeling too much like the "farm boy cast into extraordinary events" mode, which I likewise disliked.

At present, I've been stuck on the treatment for about 5 years now, but I've actually moved on from it. I'm pretty sure the issue now is actually with where I'm starting the story in the flow of events. I have this world quite fully realized in my head, so now I've started moving the story back and forward in time within the story world, adjusting the content-focus and seeing what fits with the treatment styles I've tried. I'm getting closer to a pairing I like, but I'm still not there.

I do this with most things I write, sometimes faster, sometimes agonizingly slowly -- rarely does an idea emerge fully formed, and if it does it's always for a short fiction form. When I scale up to novel length, my seemingly-fully-formed ideas peter out at about 25,000-40,000 words. Then I end up in a revision trap. So I'm schooling myself to do more fore-work on plotting before I get to style. For short fiction, I usually think in terms of both content and treatment simultaneously, but for longer stuff that approach hasn't been working for me (thus, something like 40 or 50 unfinished or barely-started novels sit in my cloud drive).

...

Returning to the point of this thread... one reason I don't outright discredit this guy's comments on these supposed tribes he sees is because whether they're well supported or not, they echo some anxieties/excitements I have about the content and style I might write about. It's not useless to me to conceptualize what I'm writing myself with how others may or may not perceive it. Most people don't go about rationally checking everything against an empirically derived body of knowledge all the time, so these kinds of things fill in a conversation that in my head that actually helps ideas consolidate -- either because I'm writing with or against this guy (usually against -- I'm oppositional-defiant that way ;) ).

But my wife and I are expecting baby number two in a few months, and I've had so little time to write in general lately that I feel dried up. Participating in these debates also helps create fuel, and to reconceptualize my ideas and approaches. This summer I hope to do a bit of writing before the onslaught of an expanded family hits. :)
 
A.Lynn said:
P.S. @KatG, I understand completely that you and Fung Koo are diametric minds, and that's part of why I enjoy watching you two interact, as vehement as either of you are. I still agree with you that the article has a condescending, pompous overtone to it, and I don't think he gauged the "tribes" very well at all. But I'm always willing to learn and re-learn things, especially from someone with as much grace and wisdom as you.

You're very sweet and I feel very guilty. We've been having chaos around here, with a cat who got a pinched nerve, a car in an accident hundreds of miles away waiting on insurance, and just fun stuff. And the time I've been able to snatch to go on SFFWorld has been given to setting up our new Roundtable and going twenty rounds of George Martin with Takoren in the Fantasy Forum. Blame him. :) No, seriously, it was my fault for getting sucked in and it was easier to do than laying out bookselling of SFF and intersectionality with genre movements and the different approaches that Fung and I come from. We're actually not diametrically opposed, as we are well aware. But I probably disagree with twenty different things he's said in my absence from the conversation. :)

But I'm not going to try to parse it out. I'll just look at your questions and lay out my stuff and you can compare. I am happy to explain the mysteries of cyberpunk. Tomorrow. I'm stuck home all day tomorrow and shall carve out a spot. (Also, I have not forgotten people's ms. stuff, really I haven't.)

And also, Fung is having another baby! Congratulations!
 
Okey-dokey, breaking it down:

The retail (trade) book market consists of a non-fiction market and a fiction market. Within the fiction market (general fiction,) every sort of fiction is sold, including SF and fantasy. And it is written in every kind of style, theme, structure, tone, low violent action, high violent action, viewpoint format, etc. In the early twentieth century, literacy widened and the book market solidified and expanded. There were chapbooks, comics, magazines partially or fully dedicated to fiction, digests, etc. There were publishers who put out newspapers, magazines, comics and cheap small paper books, and these were sold in newsstands and drugstores mainly. And there were publishers who concentrated on books, and did most of the hardcovers and larger paperbacks and their wares were mainly sold in bookstores. The division wasn't that rigid and every possible sort of style, structure, tone, etc. were both in the cheap paperbacks and the hardcovers, but society was very rigid, and so cheap paperbacks tended to be associated with the lowly, not discerning masses, and hardcovers with the educated, wealthier elite (more on that in a bit.)

In the middle of the century and after WWII, book publishers began buying up paperback arms while the wholesaler publishers partly shed them. More paperbacks moved into the bookstores, as well as the wholesale market. In North America (and then it gradually spread through the Western English language market and beyond,) over the course of the twentieth century (and for a few ones before that in the late 19th century,) they would notice when general types of fiction (that had a common type of element,) were popular and expanding, and had a readership that was willing to regularly try new authors writing that general type, as well as often magazines or comics in those areas. So they would put out more titles in those areas, the larger presses creating specialized imprints and small presses dedicating themselves to one type of fiction to build a list. And the bookstores, again mainly in North America at first, would take all those extra titles from the publishers and create sections for them in the stores as special display cases to attract readers.

It happened first with fiction meant to target children and help them learn how to read (and behave.) Mystery/suspense fiction went forward because of the popularity of this general type of fiction, all forms of it, in the early part of the twentieth century, and so forth. Eventually, we had mystery/suspense, westerns, romance, and science fiction and fantasy as four regular display sections in the bookstores in the later part of the twentieth century. (More on that in a moment.) Sometimes there were other sections, and the category sections could be created if they seemed useful and abandoned if publishers and booksellers didn't find them useful for selling anymore (which is what mostly happened with westerns and why you will see variations in bookstores.) Most of the titles put out by specialized publishers that went into those display category sections were mass market paperbacks that were cheap for those who read a lot of them and dependent on the wholesale market outside of bookstores. But there were also trade paperbacks and hardcovers, and in general fiction, all of these types were also published in both hardcover and mass market paperback.

For publishers and booksellers, there is no difference between the general fiction section and the category sections in terms of style, structure, etc. They regularly move authors and titles from one to the other and back again. Sometimes they display the title in both sections. They market titles in both sections to all audiences through a variety of venues. All very different sorts of styles, structures, themes, etc. are in the category sections and the general fiction offerings of that type. Additionally, you might have a fantasy mystery published by a mystery imprint and sold in the mystery/suspense section of the bookstore, and it might be any style. It's simply organizing books on the shelves as loosely grouped displays. It uses general elements as types but again it's not much interested in particular styles and themes.

Now, what Fung Koo likes to go on about is about whether grouping by elements sufficiently creates a cultural genre. At some point, a person proposed the term science fiction to describe stories with a certain kind of element, mainly in magazines, and that term caught on and started being used by many to describe very disparate kinds of stories that all shared the common type of element and then became the nomenclature label used by magazines, publishers, etc. And then we also went back to older titles like Frankenstein and said, this has the elements, so it is also science fiction, one of the earliest of the SF stories. So Fung feels that perhaps that sufficiently constitutes a cultural genre since we grouped them as a type. And that is a cultural development -- the development of grouping terms to describe and look at things.

But the problem is that when you try to cohesively put all the disparate titles in a common type into the idea of a genre -- a group of artistic works similar in style, theme, structure, ideals, often reflecting a sub-culture of a particular time period -- it pretty much falls apart, unless you try to shoehorn it all in with big sweeping inaccurate generalizations. (For instance, you have things like Fung trying to say all detective police procedurals work mainly this way, when in actuality they don't and have a very wide range of structure, theme, style and focus. In many works of detective/police fiction, the mystery is an identifying element for type but actually is the least important focus part of the story and usually quite weak.) The Time Traveler's Wife and a Halo tie-in novel are both works of SF containing the SF elements and are in the SF field together. But stylistically, thematically, structurally, even the type of SF element, etc., they aren't together at all. They are both suspense stories, which most SFF is, but again, this does not really unite them stylistically as an identifiable literary genre. The Time Traveler's Wife is very focused on a romance -- so is it in the romance genre or the SF genre or the drama genre or the suspense genre? A Halo tie-in novel is a tie-in, and it's a military story, so is it in the military genre or the SF genre or the suspense genre or the drama genre and it could have a central romance, so then is it the romance genre instead?

Now, people can say, well it's "cross-genre" but that's a term that's very lazily applied. Most SFFH titles are also suspense titles, but we don't run around saying that they are all cross-genre. And we tend to use that term to mean bookselling categories rather than anything stylistic and thematic again (more on that in a bit.) People also try to ostracize groups of titles into being not real SF for one reason or another, usually based on their personal preferences of what a general type of fiction should have in it besides the general element. The SF-nal bullhockey is part of this and probably might be applied to The Time Traveller's Wife. I.e. if you have certain types of SF elements and they aren't deemed sufficiently central or ray gunny, etc., you're not really in the club for some folk. SF-nal is trying to identify a cultural genre in a way, but again, it isn't really based on what it's supposed to be based on. And that approach -- trying to have not-SF SF, mainly based on bookselling packaging, has caused quite a bit of confusion. When Atwood talked about SF squid stories, she wasn't trying to belittle them. She just thought that far future stories were called SF and near future stories such as she'd written were called speculative. That's because in the 1960's and 1970's, speculative got floated as both a name for all SFF and an actual genre movement of style/theme, etc. Cultural naming attempts are part of culture and very interesting, but don't always necessarily have to do with the actual substance of the books being named. So while science fiction is cultural nomenclature developed over time for a very general type of story element, it doesn't really work as a cohesive, articulated literary genre like post-modernism or even romanticism.

But we came up with another meaning/definition for the word genre, which was a bookselling term. It meant types of fiction grouped by using a common type of element and further, those types that they had category markets/extra displays for -- mystery/suspense, romance, western and science fiction and fantasy. Historical fiction is certainly a type genre -- it has the common element of history and it is a bookselling sub-category for publishers within general fiction. But we usually don't go around calling historical fiction "genre fiction." That term as a grouping term went to the most visible groups that had additional sections. Publishers referred to those category market titles to booksellers as genres. They borrowed the term. And we do use it on occasion for historical fiction and other stuff that don't have category markets but when people talk about genre fiction, they're usually talking about just the category markets.

This takes us back to the societal idea that mass market paperbacks often sold in drugstores were for the plebes -- popular, low-brow, high violent action and suspense, cheap, "commercial," and hardcovers often sold in bookstores were for the nobility -- the educated elites -- not popular, refined and high-brow, more expensive, "literary." Genre fiction, as in type, was put out in all the forms, but the category markets again put out a lot in mass market paperback and cover art also developed over time from the magazines. So "genre fiction" -- category markets -- were popular and therefore considered low brow and commercial if they were in the category sections of bookstores. Big sweeping generalizations were made about what all the titles in that category had to have and how they appealed. In actuality, any kind, style, level of violent action book showed up in hardcover and stylistic masterpieces were put out in mass market paperback. The types didn't dictate styles at all and the category markets weren't real barriers but selling tools. Suspense fiction was the most popular type of fiction but suspense had many very stylistic, thematically deep stories to it and was sold massively in both general fiction and the category market. Hardcovers were far more frequent for suspense. So there's been, for instance, a continual battle about whether suspense can be literary or not because of its general content element, since numerous suspense works have been awarded high literary prizes. You get not-mystery mystery, etc.

These designations are cultural, but they don't reflect the actual contents of the books -- they are not analyses of literature but of people. They are reactions to social identities and to bookselling packaging as a reflection of those identities. While this has eased up somewhat culturally, there are still a lot of people who cling to it on both sides of the supposed fence as again a social identity, and try to talk about it in terms of genres, even though it doesn't scan. Additionally, you have various forms of media and media likes its categories simple, so they've continued to love the binary and like to put the genre fiction into that binary and then act astonished at some work that supposedly "transcends" its supposed plebian commercial genre limitations. That they made up in the first place. Again, all very cultural, but not very focused on actually analyzing works of fiction.

Publishers aren't dumb. They've been working the social identities as marketing techniques for awhile. They will take a book, any type, that they feel is sufficiently stylistic and thematically interesting to appeal to those who considered themselves high brow readers, they will package the title in clothing these people deem suitable and they will then go to media avenues and critics who serve those people (think The New Yorker.) At the same time, they'll also just market the title to everybody else, and if it's "genre fiction" to the category audiences/media as well. So we have lots of "literary" bestsellers while still peddling the marketing ad claim that literary isn't popular except to the discerning high brow reader. When publishing folk refer to the "literary genre," this is essentially what is meant -- books that are sold using certain sets of marketing techniques in addition to other ones. The "literary genre" titles don't form a stylistic genre of literature -- they are all different styles. Nor do they form a category genre -- they are all different types. There's no cohesion to it. But people still try to shoehorn them into the connection of being perceived as well-written books, mainly based on packaging designations. (Not that the books aren't well written books, just that the label may not come from people actually analyzing the books.)

But the resulting situation is that category market authors often found themselves "ghettoized" -- because of their publisher, place in the bookstore, book format and packaging, it was assumed that they had all similar styles, themes, etc. -- they were given a social class identity of low-browness and they might be cut off from various marketing venues. You can get out of it easily enough -- targeted marketing to those venues, switch publishing imprint and packaging, etc., but certainly being caught in that has helped in creating the genre social identity, and the idea that the most popular culture types of books are somehow ostracized and niche, when they are not. It's created an idea in the SFF field at times that the SFF titles, for example, sold in general fiction -- in paperback or hardcover -- are in a different land than the ones from category publishers that are in the display section. But again, since publishers move titles back and forth, packaging can be revamped, and general fiction SFF is marketed to the category markets and SFF media and vice versa, this isn't consistently applied and doesn't usually make a lot of sense. It tends to be more about threatened social identities than again the actual contents or writing styles of books.

This idea is sometimes reinforced by other marketing opportunities for the category market types of books. The category markets were able to plug into magazines, conventions, comics, film and television and media that covers all of it with interest full or partial in the general type of fiction. For mystery/suspense and romance, these marketing connections withered as magazines and what conventions there were withered and comics changed focus. Westerns pretty much died off as a category market in the 1990's all together, along with a decrease in film and t.v., and never had much of that cross-medium stuff going anyway. But SFF was deeply tied into comics, and then film and t.v., including animation and anime, and later electronic and other games (D&D, etc.) using SFF through magazines, conventions and media covering it all, so they got to be a continued part of that culture and benefit from what was going on in other mediums, even when their magazine market diminished and the convention circuit sometimes stumbled. Mystery/suspense was a bit tied into that along with SFF (which is again mostly suspense fiction and a lot of SFF is published in the mystery/suspense category market.) And horror had a weird situation where they had a very hard time getting a category book market platform to work consistently, but being mostly SFF, it was tied into all of that and had magazines, film and t.v., etc., and were one of the few groups considered genre fiction without having the category market. Romance used other marketing venues, and also of course writes titles with every other type of element in them, so could tie into SFF, suspense stuff, etc. In recent years, thanks to the Internet and ramped up conventions, there's been a bit of resurgence in media and marketing events for suspense and romance, as well as SFFH.

Now again, that's all cultural. There are sub-cultural groups engaging in sub-cultures within all these marketing venues and general types of fiction and film and t.v. But that culture isn't made up only of distinct literary genres and it spans numerous type genres. If we group things by general content (type genres,) logically we will keep sub-grouping by additional general types of content (type sub-genres.) And we do that in category markets and out of them for all types of fiction. (A legal thriller has suspense elements and involves legal elements -- its style, theme, structure, etc. could be anything.) The publishers develop ones to use with booksellers or use terms floating around and those become nomenclature in media and round it goes. Again, cultural, but not cohesive. Additionally, we do have literary genres within every general type of fiction -- groups of works written around the same time by authors that are similar in style, tone, theme, structure, etc. and become identified as such. Sometimes, publishers take those literary genres, especially if they are popular, and turn them into sub-type genres too.

And that's the deal with cyberpunk. Science fiction authors were writing stories about tech and then computers very early on. And they also wrote about tech dystopias. William Gibson didn't obviously invent the idea of a story about technology, dystopian repressive future societies and rebellion of such. Such an idea developed culturally long ago. And he didn't invent noir nihilistic writing style obviously. That also was developed long ago and regularly combined with SF. But what Gibson did do is write a story with a noir-ish style about cyber (computer, communication tech, etc.) and punk (rebellion against established repression,) that was very popular. And he did so at the same time that several other authors like Bruce Sterling were also doing stories in that style, with those themes, elements, structures, etc. (Some of them talking to each other and others not.) People looked at those titles and saw how similar they were to each other, noticed occasional collaborations between them and grouped them stylistically, not simply content. They identified it as a movement of the time -- the 1980's and its developing PC's and satellites, as a cultural commentary on that time, as a distinct thematic and structural style -- a literary movement, a genre. And they borrowed the term cyberpunk to name it.

And with Gibson and such, it was quite popular. And since the fiction market is symbiotic, publishers were taking anything similar they had at the time and calling it cyberpunk, which had the general content link -- cyber tech, and so cyberpunk was both a literary genre movement of the 1980's and early 1990's, and a type sub-genre for the SF field. Later on, other people of course wrote books in that general area, which weren't part of the original movement but were part of the sub-type category. It is a literary genre tradition identifiable in the world of fiction and a marketing sub-category at the same time. Grimdark (mid-oughts Abercrombie and co,) is another one of those. New Wave SF -- which was a specific set of authors writing in the 1960's and 1970's with similar themes and styles, Weird Fiction (late 1800's to 1930's,) New Weird Fiction (neo-weird essentially, grouped around China Mieville who invented the term, Jeff Vandermeer, and some others in the early oughts) magic realism, steampunk SFF, splatterpunk horror, Afro-futurism, and so forth. Some of them become sub-category types, some do not. Many sub-category types are just general content and don't involve movements. But we like to mash everything up.

As a general type of element, science fiction elements are those elements that don't exist in the real world beyond the made-up fictional sense of all fiction - they don't exist at all in the real world, they are unreal -- but which are imagined as possibly existing or could sometime exist due to natural, scientific causes. An unreal extension of the real world, you could say. This can include things like finding a natural way through physics of time traveling, having multiple dimensions due to quantum theory that might also lead to Earths with alternate histories to our own real one, finding a neurological way to do telepathy, discovering alien races who have natural, science-based abilities that humans don't have, etc.

Fantasy uses elements that are also unreal -- don't exist in the real world, to the best of our evidence knowledge -- but unlike science fiction, the reason those unreal elements exist is due to supernatural causes -- magic, the divine, the ghostly -- things beyond nature and scientific explanation. You can blend science fiction and fantasy elements in a story, but since science fiction is about naturally based unreal, that means you end up with a fantasy story with SF elements. Market sub-categories (type sub-genres) in fantasy are based on setting, which can include atmosphere -- secondary world/epic, contemporary, historical/alt history, steampunk, dark fantasy, comic fantasy, multiverse and portal, futuristic fantasy. We don't sort fantasy into sub-types based on the type of supernatural element. I.e. if we have two contemporary fantasy novels, one with gods, angels and demons (divine,) and another with elves and wizards (magic,) we don't put them in separate groups based on that. They are both in contemporary fantasy because they have contemporary settings.

In science fiction we group novels into sub-types by the type of science that forms the main basis of the story, which may involve setting but isn't ordered by setting. Hard SF involves "hard" physical sciences -- biology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, engineering. Sociological SF involves "soft" social sciences -- politics, psychology, sociology, anthropology and archeology. Military SF involves military technology. Cyberpunk involves cyber technology, including nano and A.I. Post-apocalyptic SF involves surviving technology and science after a disaster. Space opera involves science only in the background and space travel science. So if you have a story about a rogue A.I. on a colony planet far into the future and you have another story about a developing A.I. in the near future on Earth, both may be cyberpunk, even though the settings are different. But there is some interaction there. Near future SF isn't exactly a sub-category, but it is a description of stories that involve near future science and are obviously set in the near future. But mainly it's type of science.

Literary genre movements like steampunk or New Weird may cross category types. Steampunk can be a SF or a fantasy story and has common elements of setting/tech. We are, in cultural development as Fung likes to point out, constantly playing with these designations, arguing about them, making new ones, retiring old ones, reusing words decades later, identifying types of elements and identifying groups of writers in time period writing similar styles and themes as lit movements. It is a conversation about fiction, and sometimes more about society than about the actual fiction. It does involve bookselling and marketing and what publishers do more than Fung likes to deal with. :) It also involves lots of people talking, with no central authority, no consensus and shifting reference points.

Walter was basically saying that he was going to make up his own literary genre movements in SFF -- not really based on the books exactly but on what he proposed groups of readers all wanted together -- sub-cultures of fans. Social identities that he made up based on his preferences basically. So he knows that YA is a bookselling category, based on the children's age group system and having only the common element of teen protagonists and lots of different styles and themes. But what he's proposing is that a large chunk of people reading YA want X from it and most YA authors supposedly supply them with X and that makes up a cohesive tribe, genre movement, sub-culture. It has very little to do with the actual books in YA and a lot to do with Walter feeling that most of YA is commercial dreck with pleasant coming of age tales. Which, you know, is fine by him if you like that sort of thing. Given that authors who write YA titles get enormous dismissive flack for it, and authors who write both YA and adult fiction get constantly told to write only adult titles as supposedly more varied, valuable and real fiction, that YA is often considered a "woman's" area because women found opportunities in it and many have large followings which then renders YA additionally inferior and undesirable for manly attention, and that women YA authors often find themselves facing dismissal and marketing discrimination in favor of male YA authors who are considered more desirable and transcendent thereby, his little attempt at a social identity is just more of the same crap thrown at YA really. It doesn't have much to do with what is going on in YA, a lot of it very interesting. And it doesn't even notice the new category market spun off children's/YA of New Adult.

And then there's his progressive SF, by which he has grouped disparate authors he likes under a very vague heading of visions of the future, mainly eco-fiction (a sub-category involving environmental science and ecology issues.) Those discerning readers including himself and the authors who offer them some sort of vision of the future are the future of SF or SFF supposedly. It isn't a sub-category. He's trying to make it a genre lit movement but he can't really pull it together. And he's ignoring a lot of other people who are getting a lot of attention right now as exciting developments in the field.

Hard SF readers are cranky old readers who like specific hard sf things and whatever those authors are that supply them, mostly probably old ones, and that's supposedly a cohesive tribe sub-culture. Doesn't make a lot of sense except when you see it as him setting up the past movement (cranky old men who like hard SF,) and the future movement (stuff he likes, eco-fiction facing the future.) One is outdated and lost in their own little world and the other group is, you know, forward looking and the future of the whole shebang.

The literary posers thing ties right into the imaginary literary general fiction versus commercial genre category social identity issue that involves a lot of bookselling issues and the very troubling aspect of "geek policing" -- telling folk who is a real geek fan and who is not, when actually there is no such set of requirements and nobody has the authority to police anybody. Essentially, authors who have published non-SFF are welcome to publish SFF (often in the general fiction market to keep touch with their established fanbase,) and be brought into the fold -- if Walter and those so designated who are category fans approve of that person, and if that person's work is not sold in certain ways in the general and category markets.

It's one thing, Walter feels, for authors working with category publishers to do forty million books about time travel, post-apocalyptic worlds, vampires and zombies, etc. But if a general fiction author, especially one presented as literary, publishes a SFF book that is about something done lots of time very well by category authors, and is feted by his publisher and the media as doing something really cool and unusual and "transcending" the genre, (a time honored marketing tactic that is indeed annoying and nonsensical but also still effective due to the media liking those social identity things,) then Walter is considering it a slap in the face to the dismissed category authors, that the author is a poser getting credit by dipping an ignorant, hackneyed toe in the category waters, a noble slumming with the peasants for loot, and fans who like that work are fake geeks who don't know anything about what's good and real SFF and form that ignorant tribe, etc. It's an old grudge. And Walter clearly did not like Cronin's work at all. If we did not have the fake geek girl discrimination campaigns going on and a lot of really nasty attempts at tribalism by self-appointed kings of the geeks, Walter's grouping here might have been funnier. But as it is, he should know better. If you write a SFF novel, publish it and people buy it, whatever it is, you are part of the SFF field and your readers are SFF fans just as much as anybody else. There is no freaking entrance exam.

Another example: "50 Shades of Grey" supposedly started as a "fan fiction" of the "Twilight" series. Therefore, we essentially have Bella and Edward still, but the paranormal romance/fantasy setting has been swapped out for a mundane romance setting. People still love it, because they love that core mechanic of Bella and Edward (... for some ghastly reason, but hey, this is subjective, right?)

Except that her two characters are nothing remotely like Bella and Edward. Maybe the original fan fiction swerved closer (which is kind of scary,) but it was clearly radically altered. It's much more like the glitter novels of the 1970's and 1980's that the author probably grew up with. (Glitter novels is an industry sub-category in general fiction, meaning novels like the ones written by Judith Krantz and Jackie Collins about glittery settings of wealthy and famous people with sex scenes and soap opera drama.) So it's not a matter of just shifting settings. There is nothing stylistically, thematically, structurally, similar between YA Twilight and soft erotica 50 Shades of Grey. But it makes a good origin story for her writing. (Marketing techniques!)

Did I get everything? I'm not even going to get into Fung's music stuff. :)
 
Yeah, I think I agree with KatG's slant on his motivations with this piece.

There was a bit of a mean-spirited vibe to it that I didn't like.

Smacked of gatekeeping* and the whole 'tribes' thing just felt like a charade to permit him to get some digs in to the various people he identifies against.

It's fine, it's what you'd expect a column / opinion piece / clickbait from him to be I guess. Even when I agree with him on something I find him abrasive in his writing style.

Doesn't make a lot of sense except when you see it as him setting up the past movement (cranky old men who like hard SF,) and the future movement (stuff he likes, eco-fiction facing the future.) One is outdated and lost in their own little world and the other group is, you know, forward looking and the future of the whole shebang.

And his comments on Cronin just had me scratching my head.

*This "fake geek girl" thing is a new one on me, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that this is a thing. I find it so bizarre that sometimes it's within the marginalised communities (whether it's SF geekdom, the tattoo community, piercing etc) that you find these self appointed inquisitors of who is legit or not.
 
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*This "fake geek girl" thing is a new one on me, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that this is a thing. I find it so bizarre that sometimes it's within the marginalised communities (whether it's SF geekdom, the tattoo community, piercing etc) that you find these self appointed inquisitors of who is legit or not.

Except SFF geekdom has never been a marginalized community. They've always been a mainstream, wildly popular, multi-media cultural front made up in the west mainly of middle-class white people who drove the consumer market. They just feel like they're marginalized because many of them (us) were picked on for liking the stuff that everybody liked when they grew up (sometimes picking on each other,) and because it became part of the social identity that they were the ostracized outsiders banding together. The more global the cultural front has become, the more that some groups cling to the social identity and declare themselves guardians of the flame.

The fake geek girl comes from the myth that women up until really recently were rare as fans of all things SFFH geek. They weren't. Most of the time, they were running the conventions. But they had to deal with a lot of sexism to participate. And as part of that, their existence as fans and creators was often erased and discounted, even as women authors busted through and increased their numbers. And the myth gets even worse when it comes to comics, games and anime -- areas where women were and are routinely told to keep out and tended to be quiet about their fandom.

But as that has been tackled and as global fandom has gotten more interconnected and big events got bigger, they had to stop floating that myth sometime in the 1990's. So they fell back on a good girl/bad girl myth to try to gatekeep (men will occasionally get gatekeeped, especially if they aren't white, but most of it does go at women.) Good girl fans defer to guys, know lots and lots about whatever they are into, never complain about sexism in fandom, etc. Fake geek girls are just pretending to enjoy all the stuff, don't have proper encyclopedic knowledge about stuff, don't defer to guys and complain when they run up against blocks to participating, and are clearly there just because it's now popular, to make money off of it, and/or to make guys horny (cosplay,) etc. It's always been popular, but again, if someone wanted to pick on you and you liked games, for example, even if everybody played games down in the arcade, it was something they could pick on you about, along with whatever social awkwardness you had that attracted their attention in the first place.

Walter isn't a fan of the fake geek girl stuff or general gatekeeping, but even so, it's so ingrained as lore after seventy years, that he casually utilized some of it in the piece -- the category niche social identity versus literary posers, the romance fans just using SFF to get their ovaries off, etc. And I'm of the firm view that as much of that needs to go as possible.
 
Walter isn't a fan of the fake geek girl stuff or general gatekeeping, but even so, it's so ingrained as lore after seventy years, that he casually utilized some of it in the piece -- the category niche social identity versus literary posers, the romance fans just using SFF to get their ovaries off, etc. And I'm of the firm view that as much of that needs to go as possible.

That perhaps touches upon a key confusion I had when reading the post. I couldn't get a hold of what the post was trying to tell me. I kept feeling the tribe metaphor wasn't working properly. I did catch some of what you mentioned, but I ignored for the time being, because I was still trying to make sense of it all. Yes, Walter's clearly carving out a position for himself in some sort imaginary playing field, but I wasn't sure what sort of position. Is it only others that are part of a tribe, while you yourself are just writing stories? Yes, clearly you have your sympathies, but...

Some of the placing was confusing me. Why is Kelly Link a lit fic tourist? At that point I instinctively read this as a sort of exchange program - maybe Link is supposed to be a SF tourist in the lif fic world?

Some of the things he says just don't ring true:

There’s a near irreconcilable tension between the poetic values of literature, storytelling and novels, with the logic driven realms of science and technology.

My first thought was that he should tell that to the scientists who named quarks. There's a lot of folk poetry in science, and there's plenty of ideology, for example when talking about "primates". It's no surprise that science and fiction get together occasionally. (I also suspect that more English majors have read "Origin of the Species" than biologists. The latter only need the knowledge, the former need the text.)

Some of the tensions are real. For example, grouping the New Wave under "progressive fantasists" and putting them at odds with the "military conservatives" makes some sort of limited sense, especially when you take in account some of the evidence, such as Moorcock's article Starship Stormtroopers. Comparable tensions flare up again and again, but that's no suprise because incompatible ideologies will clash anywhere. But it's not as easy as postulating tribes, because articles like "Starship Stormtroopers" don't always attack a "closed front", nor are they necessarily part of a coherent front ("Starship Stormtroopers", if I'm not mistaken, was first published in an anarchist mag, so that's a pretty good place to look for a grouping).

But outside of such tensions? In what ways do "commercial story tellers" form a tribe? You want to tell a story to lots of people, and you hope they enjoy them. How does that add up to any group membership? Maybe you get accused of being shallow, and then you can say that you're not, or you can embrace shallow as an ideology (fun?), or... or... or... Is any of that happening? I really don't know. But generally, elitism comes up when a minority attempts to horde prestige. The majority doesn't have to care, though some tend to do.

One of the questions you might ask to members of the tribes: do they consider themselves part of it? I doubt many people get a sense of social belonging from being a "commercial story teller", although I'm sure there are a lot of people who are happy that lots of people find it easy to enjoy their books. That's different from people who aspire to minority prestige (i.e. I want to be accepted as part of the canon, or such), but by no means incompatible. However, the two aspirations can result in tribal behaviour when it boils down to "I'm better than you are."

Next, he says he's talking about "tribes" not "genres or subgenres" (in bold print, so it's important). But then what are "Hard Sciencers". "Hard SF" is mostly a subgenre, but if writing it isn't what makes you part of that tribe, what is? It's here, more than anywhere else, where I wonder whether Walter is talking about writers, or about a group comprised of both writers and readers. "Hard Sciencers" might make more sense as a tribe of readers, for example, since writers just write their stories, but readers often tend to scour the stories for scientific plausibility and citing it as a value. I'm not sure.

Finally, I have a hunch I don't agree with Walter's assessment of genre:

While crime, romance and thrillers all remain as coherent genres of fiction, it’s been decades since sci-fi could be comfortably understood by any shared generic criteria.

This sounds suspiciously like the old we-are-all-different-but-they-are-all-the-same tune. If both "crime" and "thrillers" are coherent genres, then what do you do with crime thrillers? And in any case, many of the tribes apply to those genres, too. (Isabel Allende has recently caused a similar stir withing the mystery genre that Atwood has caused in SF, for example.) Is the argument that you need these tribes to better understand SF, while they're marginal in other stories? I'm not sure what point he's trying to make.

You get tribal behaviour in literature because people are people. You get tribal behaviour anywhere. But I'm not even sure it's about tribal behaviour, primarily, because the "commercial storytellers" and "sexy beasts" seem to not really exhibit much of that (unless someone feels attacked, maybe?).

That's the thing with classification: the more abstract you are in the description, the more books you describe, but the less accurate the description will be. The more accurate you make the description, though, the fewer books will fit it. You'll have to strike a balance between uselessly vague and ineffeciently diverse. In any case, don't let the classification become more important than the book itself. If that happens, everyone loses.
 
That perhaps touches upon a key confusion I had when reading the post. I couldn't get a hold of what the post was trying to tell me. I kept feeling the tribe metaphor wasn't working properly.

His problem was that he was trying to talk about groups of readers, what the groups of readers want (just one set of things for all of them which makes them a tribe,) as opposed to sub-categories of writers, but then he would keep switching to writers (literary posers, etc.) and try to use them as examples, but not consistently and he got some of them wrong. And then he would try to use sub-categories for the groups of readers for some "tribes" but not for others. So yes, it wasn't real coherent.

Some of the placing was confusing me. Why is Kelly Link a lit fic tourist? At that point I instinctively read this as a sort of exchange program - maybe Link is supposed to be a SF tourist in the lif fic world?

That's an example of the problem. He starts talking about Link in this tribe/category, then seems to realize that she doesn't fit, then doesn't pick anybody else but Cronin. But the idea is that the tribe is supposed to consist not of Cronin but his fans, who aren't real SFF fans who know things and love the fields, but tourists who are just dipping their toes in, and who therefore think that what Cronin is doing is so cool and original, when it's not, it's been done by SF category writers lots of times, so there. So yes, it's geek policing there, and anger at those on the side of the fence who claim literary works of SF aren't SF (not-SF SF,) while at the same time echoing those on his side of the fence that if they don't think the author meets the test and is published in general fiction, it's not really valuable SF. (In reality, the fence doesn't exist except as a cultural wish by those who tie it to social identities.)

There's a lot of folk poetry in science, and there's plenty of ideology, for example when talking about "primates".

Scientists are quite romantic, I agree. That's why they get so fascinated with science. And the fantasy writers of course are jumping off of bardic traditions and do tons of poetry. (That's one problem he has -- he's talking about the eight tribes of SF, but he's throwing in fantasy, and then also kind of ignores horror, which is mainly made up of fantasy and SF, and whose fans would be easy pickings for a tribe.) Space opera is poetic. But we have the cultural belief that there are the very fact-bound, inarticulate, lacking imagination science people and the artsy, visionary poetic people and they're separate.

But what Walter is really doing here is again regurgitating the SF version of the happy elf myth for fantasy. The SF myth goes, before the New Wave lit movement, SF writers were all controlled by Campbell (American SF writers being the only ones who much count,) and they were horrible writers in the literary sense. They had flat characters, stilted styles, they didn't care about thematic and social issues, just about spaceships, adventure and physics stuff. All the stories were about heroic, patriotic men and ended happily and were entirely too perky or pulpy. But then, then, came the 1960's and the empire of Campbell was eroded by writers who explored psychological and social issues, had sex in their stories, had grey characters, dystopias and unhappy endings, fought against conformity and concentrated on real writing with literary quality and imagery and stuff. Which is bunk, but was also a really good marketing tool for New Wave authors. And like a religious sect born from a mother church and distancing itself on the gospel, the idea has persisted culturally as SF lore.

So for Walter, the New Wave birthed the Progressives who are the ones doing exciting things that are the future of the field. The fans of the sub-category Hard SF (who are not all the fans of hard SF, but those in a tribe with this mindset and desire,) are the Campbellians, who want the old style SF with hard science, adventure, spaceships, heroes, and unnuanced, unpoetic stuff with no social issues and dystopias, etc. And the military conservatives, who are not all the fans of military SF but a tribe of fans who want particular things, are also Campbellian and authoritarian, etc. They're the old, out-dated guard for Walter. He's not poo-pooing hard SF or military SF; he's poo-pooing those who he thinks have little appreciation for prose. They are welcome to their stuff, but it's not the future of the field, etc. (It's a marketing meme!)

Some of the tensions are real. For example, grouping the New Wave under "progressive fantasists" and putting them at odds with the "military conservatives" makes some sort of limited sense, especially when you take in account some of the evidence, such as Moorcock's article Starship Stormtroopers.

It really doesn't, because a lot of the puppies worship Heinlein who in his later years, happily dabbled in New Wave, including the seminal New Wave work Stranger in a Strange Land. And they like a lot of New Wave authors and New Wave descendants like Larry Niven. (In fact, quite a lot of them like Moorcock, despite his politics because they like Elric.) But mainly the puppies don't care about the books; they care about cultural political attitudes (liberal ones,) they fear infect and will control the general society and the SFF publishing (mainly American) industry. And they don't have cohesive views about this; they don't want the same things from all their fiction. It's true that there are quite a few conservative authors in military SF, but they don't really generate anything that can be considered a "tribe" in their readers.

But outside of such tensions? In what ways do "commercial story tellers" form a tribe?

Again, it's not the authors here, but the readers. The commercial storyteller tribe consists of those SFFH fans who don't have an ideological axe to grind or specific desire, supposedly, and who like to read stories that are popular/commercial -- not very intellectual or literary, high action, not challenging or daring however Walter conceives things to be challenging or daring, using old trite standard plots and structures that they are used to and that comfort them, mainly happy endings. They're the everybody else tribe. So horror fans who aren't that into New Weird/Weird fiction, military SF fans who aren't conservative, space opera fans, epic fantasy readers, contemporary fantasy, etc. -- all the stuff in the general, category field he didn't otherwise outline. And then a friend of his suggested a ninth tribe who would be the sub-set of commercial storyteller fans who like sagas in really big, big cast, spectacular worlds like space opera and epic fantasy, supposedly. You know, the plebians. And it's not that they're inferior fans. They just have simple commercial wants. So that was funny, because I really was like, where are all the horror fans, and then I realized he'd put them in commercial storytelling with the kitchen sink.

where I wonder whether Walter is talking about writers, or about a group comprised of both writers and readers.

It's mostly readers again, but also what writers are doing to which readers are supposedly responding.

This sounds suspiciously like the old we-are-all-different-but-they-are-all-the-same tune. If both "crime" and "thrillers" are coherent genres, then what do you do with crime thrillers?

By crime, he means mystery novels, lol. Don't expect him to have much understanding of the sub-categories of suspense fiction.) And that's the other myth. That one goes like this: suspense (thrillers,) mysteries (which overlap with thrillers and are also part of suspense but never mind,) and romance and westerns are all limited (coherent) stories structurally and thematically because they all have to have the same form and goals. Mysteries all work the same way with a detective who solves the mystery in the end and justice is done (except that they don't.) Romances all have the couple meeting, clashing, having hot sex and having a happy ending (except that they don't.) Or mainly they do and that's "defining" for the genre supposedly.

This myth was/is also applied to SF and fantasy (mainly the category notion/paperback,) -- that the stories are all the same, that SF fans want space pirates and heroic captains with ray guns and simple adventure plots, and the fantasy fans are arrested adolescents who want comforting heroic wish-fulfillment fairy tales that have to have weird creatures, quests, etc. This myth was mainly generated by those who were not fans of the category SFF markets and used to explain why genre fiction, while perfectly nice, was not literary, in part because you simply couldn't do much with it when you had to stick to those supposed rigid genre structure and plot requirements. That's why non-SF SF and non-fantasy fantasy that they want to reward as literary gems are said to "transcend" the genres because you see they are structurally, thematically, prose-wise and plot-wise different and challenging of the supposed genre requirements. And also in hardcover, or at least trade paperback since Bright Lights, Big City was put out by Vantage.

Walter is arguing that while this myth is perfectly correct for the other genres, what writers have done in SFF (New Wave, etc.) has gone beyond (transcended,) and expanded such considerations with all sorts of challenging structures, plots, themes and prose (such as the Progressives!) and therefore the myth of genre requirements does not really apply to SFF anymore. But note that he's okay with that myth being applied elsewhere. And this is because the myth isn't just with the would-be literati. It's also used by SFF fans to proclaim that most SFF is rigid cookie-cutter commercial (commercial story-telling,) and they like it that way, or it's that way except for some stuff they like, or that other genres are like that, but not SFF, as Walter does. (Basically, anything you like is special and breaks the mold, unless you are taking the rebel stance that the mold is just fine thanks and literary stuff stinks.)

Atwood didn't get into trouble for writing some science fiction (and fantasy too.) Authors regularly publish SF in general fiction, some of it by authors marketed as literary, and nobody much cares. But Atwood's SF novels -- the best-selling The Handmaid's Tale which became a curriculum staple, seen as part of feminist SF, and the best-selling Oryx & Crake, which hit just as a number of general fiction SF books were getting attention, were both well known and liked by many SF fans. So when she got asked about them and messed up the nomenclature and used squids as her example of aliens, that is what got her the flack. Because then they thought she was claiming to be non-SF SF and too good for them. (I.e. literary tourist.)

Now mystery writers and fans get some of the same flack re the genre myth, so there may have been some literary tourist annoyance over Allende doing a mystery novel. Especially if it's being marketed as her transcending mysteries. But so many acclaimed authors have done mysteries that it's not really a tourist designation thing for them. But on the literarti/prize size, Allende is much more likely getting flack for writing a mystery (the limited trashy genre stuff,) rather than magic realism drama (which goes into fantasy, but shush.) Even though countless authors have done it and other types of suspense and gotten great acclaim for it, if it seems to them too obviously a limited mystery (detective, etc.) then you get flack. Kate Atkinson's Jackson Brodie novels are brilliant, structurally interesting and very poetic but she was told that writing them would cut her out of the big lit prizes, though some of the books won some lit prizes as well as mystery genre lit prizes. And she's never been nominated for the Mann Booker, even for Life After Life, a major fantasy novel, though she was longlisted for that. You probably have a better shot with fantasy and SF books (which again are mainly suspense,) of winning the Booker than something deemed too "mystery." Michael Chabon was told in his early years that writing SF, fantasy, mystery, etc. would mean he wouldn't be considered seriously, so his first novel was a coming of age drama. He was established enough to go for comics and golems by the time he did Cavalier & Klay, and then he won big prizes with Yiddish Policeman -- a SF alternate history mystery thriller. That probably did more to help SFF's lit reputation than anything else because Chabon went around talking about how SFF fiction is literature to the media. Which confounded them and led to Ursula Le Guin's wonderful paragraph on "transcendence."

So these myths aren't true and don't have much to do with actual books and they get applied haphazardly, depending on what you want to include, exclude, deem super terrific transcendent. Since it's all tied into social identities and mixed with bookselling, it depends on what you're trying to distinguish. If you really want to talk about fiction and what authors are actually doing (the specific,) it's difficult because first you must push aside the social identity classification systems that people have -- the ones where they make sweeping inaccurate generalizations, including about the psychological desires of readers. Or they declare that the history of various types of fiction is that first there was one cohesive movement where everybody did this and then there were the new rebels who started a new movement and everything then changed in this direction (this is not your father's fiction,) and so forth. That's how grimdark, for example, can be simultaneously taking over all of fantasy fiction (secondary world pre-industrial fiction,) and be way less popular and more exclusive and transcendent than the popular stuff because most people don't like dark stuff and grey characters (even though most people do like dark stuff and grey characters and it's always one of the most popular areas.) It's how SF is always dying, no matter how popular it is. It's how romance is supposedly nothing more than porn and fluffy bunnies. It's why YA and children's writers are told that they aren't doing real fiction and that their teen characters never can curse, do drugs, have sex and be really violent as a genre requirement, even though there are YA protagonists who do all these things.

The main point here is that Walter is not doing a great service to SFF by claiming its fans form a bunch of tribes with very limited tastes, good or bad. That's not really how readers are. It's a set of simple symbols, because more complicated and nuance analysis is harder than bromides and old social resentments. And not nearly as likely to be controversial for clicks. But the reality is that Walter has done some more complicated and nuanced analysis from time to time, so it was kind of a surprise. He also declared that the puppies should be banned from voting on the Hugos, so maybe he's just really cranky right now. :)
 
@Atwood/Allende:

So when she got asked about them and messed up the nomenclature and used squids as her example of aliens, that is what got her the flack. Because then they thought she was claiming to be non-SF SF and too good for them. (I.e. literary tourist.)

Exactly the point, here. Atwood may have written a SF book, but she didn't speak "genre", and thus managed to anger fans. Allende was a similar position. It wasn't the book, but an interview, that angered people (including a bookseller returning 20 signed copies of the book - see here).

That's pretty much tribal behaviour, but it's talk about books rather than the books itself that matters here. It's an interesting topic, and if you take genre as a starting point, you'd have to take social groupings into account. Online that usually means who can talk about what in what ways. And then a "tribe" would be a sort of social positioning process that's at least partly independent from your intentions. And it would involve writers, readers, and all sorts of middle men and commenters, too. Viewed like that, that a one-off blog post would come across as incoherent isn't really a surprise.
 
Exactly the point, here. Atwood may have written a SF book, but she didn't speak "genre", and thus managed to anger fans. Allende was a similar position. It wasn't the book, but an interview, that angered people (including a bookseller returning 20 signed copies of the book - see here).

But she did speak genre. She just spoke it in 1970's and 1980's somewhat academic reference, back when she first wrote SFF pieces among other things and published The Handmaid's Tale, which involved her quite a bit with other authors from the feminist SF movement who were being studied in women's studies. Speculative was a big push then, except that what speculative was supposed to be was up for lots of debate. And so Atwood, who is good friends with Le Guin, Stephen King and other quite knowledgeable SFFH major writers, and a big name in the Canadian fiction scene, where there was less of rigid ideas about category markets, simply referred to categories that were talked about back then because she thought they were still in effect. She was as prone to myths about types of SF fiction and what readers want from them as Walter himself and many SFF fans.

And those concepts still are basically in effect -- people still use speculative as a word to refer to both all of SFFH (as a synonym for sci-fi,) or as a lit movement in sort of the same vein as slipstream -- except it was never very clearly defined. And one of the aspects of something being speculative presented was that it was now what is sometimes called SF-nal. Atwood was referencing when fans, SFF media, etc. were often distinguishing near future SF as not typical SF (far future, space, lots of physics,) but something else (sociological SF, dystopias, etc.) She could have just as well said that she was New Wave as speculative.

So after the controversy happened, Atwood had a long, semi-public conversation with Le Guin about where her work fit in the SF field and the different views of the meaning of the word speculative, exactly as the genre itself has often done over the decades. And she then concluded that she had indeed written several SF novels under current views of the field. She also wrote intros for Master Works of SF being reprinted because she actually does know a fair amount, even if a good bit of it is dated.

So Atwood wasn't a tourist to SFF. She was very involved with it at various points in her career. But she hadn't been deeply involved with it for a bit when she wrote Oryx & Crake, and most people knew her as an award-winning lit author whose SF novel they had to read in school. So she got geek policed because they assumed she was making fun of them (the space squid bit was what did it.) It's something we really need to stop doing, even when people who are newer to the field say dumb things or are marketed as the second coming to save all SFF literature. It's irritating but if we're less obsessed with classifying readers and writer's bonafides, it does actually happen less.

As for Allende, she is married to a mystery writer who probably should have educated her better. Here we see again in her comments that she's buying somewhat into the myth of rigid requirements for suspense fiction (as Walter does) -- she will use the "formula" that "readers expect." She's not necessarily viewing all of mystery using the formula, just that she's not using the stereotypical noir detective with slinky female fatale -- of 1930's-1950's pulp. She's trying to say that her mystery is a cozy, compared to the dark, gritty psychological thrillers that seemed to be successful in 2012. And she's pretending that YA mystery with teen sleuths doesn't exist, as well as many adult market mysteries with teen sleuths.

What was successful in 2012? Gone Girl -- which was a phenom. Gone Girl isn't a mystery, it's a psychological thriller. The similar psych thriller Beautiful Disaster and all the other Gothic thrillers in the same ballpark that publishers marketed heavily in Gone Girl's wake, Grisham's The Racketeer, a legal thriller this time having a convict as the center, The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reached American shores with its sequel The Girl Who Kicked a Hornet's Nest, the psychological thriller phenom series with Lisbeth, David Balducci's political corruption thriller The Innocent, James Patterson collab thrillers and Jack Reacher novels.

These things did not at all make up the whole of the suspense market and certainly not the mystery market in 2012. But that's what people do -- they assume from the bright shiny objects what has supposedly taken over and from that, the supposed mind-set of all the suspense readers. Or rather, all the suspense fans except themselves. So Allende was distinguishing herself, badly, from what seemed to her to be most desired in crime fiction at the time -- twisty psych thrillers about questionable people.

But even if you are a more aware fan, that doesn't mean these assumptions don't come up. During the Martin discussion with Takoren, we were talking about Hollywood and them having more comfort with SF outside of horror, as more predictable, and how epic fantasy has made in-roads in t.v. but Takoren felt there was more of it in the 1980's, which is a bit debatable as he kept narrowing the parameters. And yet in the SF forum, they are talking about how fantasy is more popular than SF (SF is dying,) and that Hollywood isn't doing the classic SF titles, and why can't they do a bunch after The Martian that are more hard SF like that, (hard SF is dying,) etc. And Walter does the same thing several times.

It's an interesting topic, and if you take genre as a starting point, you'd have to take social groupings into account. Online that usually means who can talk about what in what ways. And then a "tribe" would be a sort of social positioning process that's at least partly independent from your intentions. And it would involve writers, readers, and all sorts of middle men and commenters, too.

Yes, except Walter is trying to make up his own categories of reader tribes. By rehashing old stereotypes about who SFF fan readers are. Which really is kind of cheating. :) And also unlikely to get taken up. I doubt we'll be seeing the term Progressive Fantasists (the only original term he uses and I'm not sure it's his,) catching on, especially for SF and especially SF that is already called eco-fiction, but time will tell.
 
So after the controversy happened, Atwood had a long, semi-public conversation with Le Guin about where her work fit in the SF field and the different views of the meaning of the word speculative, exactly as the genre itself has often done over the decades. And she then concluded that she had indeed written several SF novels under current views of the field. She also wrote intros for Master Works of SF being reprinted because she actually does know a fair amount, even if a good bit of it is dated.

I've got a book of essays from Atwood somewhere around the house. She's quoting several SF writers; the only one I can think of right now is Robert Silverberg, but there were more. I know Brian Aldiss remembers her, though I can't remember where they met. Terms, though, mean different things depending on the circles you move in.

I didn't know about the discussion with Ursula K Le Guin. I'd love to read what's available (since I like the non-fiction writing of both of them).

Yes, except Walter is trying to make up his own categories of reader tribes. By rehashing old stereotypes about who SFF fan readers are. Which really is kind of cheating. :) And also unlikely to get taken up. I doubt we'll be seeing the term Progressive Fantasists (the only original term he uses and I'm not sure it's his,) catching on, especially for SF and especially SF that is already called eco-fiction, but time will tell.

I don't know. Is he trying to make up his own categories? I felt he's abstracting and improvising a sketch from those abstraction. Naturally, it'll end up sketchy.

I'm out of loop ever since the magazines vanished from the railway station shops (which were the last place they were easily available to me), so I no longer really know what's going on. I do know about the bigger things (the puppies are hard to miss, for example), but I'm nowhere near as up-to-date as I was in the late nineties/early 2000s. So that's something I'm not really fit to judge.

"Commercial storytellers", though, sounds like a black-hole category. It has the potential to suck up everything.
 

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