The BIG FAT THEORY of BIG FAT FANTASY

I've been silent for a while, due to other concerns (such as starting up a Blog, among others), but your post scares me, No-Dog. Not because I disagree with it, but because there are so many trends you mention that do concern me and that do drive me away from things of a "mass" nature.

Have I asked you yet about whether or not you are familiar with Peter Burke's or George Mosse's books on the rise of mass culture in European/American societies? If you're not, I think you'd find some of their analyses to be quite interesting. It truly frightens me to see how popular culture has been perverted into a relatively homogenized "mass" culture. I don't know if Sauron has won or not, but it sure seems like his handlers have made his message sexier for the masses to consume.
 
No-Dog said:
Do we live in a world where Sauron has won?

Don't know about Sauron, but it seems the glib tongued Saurman's have. The almost free hand that industry has been given in our country(USA) shows that the individual is less valued than the corporate structure. Look at the tax breaks and incentives paid to corporations just to build a plant or HQs in certain cities across the land.
 
I don't want to sound simplistic in the face of all of these superb theories, but aren't the masses just made up of lots of you's and me's? I go to the mall too, but I don't worship there.
 
:rolleyes: good try No-Dog. I haven't been running for cover, but school just started this past week, so I've been rather busy (experiencing my first AP class, so I rather found doing my homework a bit more important than arguing against geniuses ;) ) also, I actually thought this thread had been abandoned, since it seems the one thing we can all agree on is that we won't ever all agree.

That being said, I'll try to return here later and actually argue you.
 
No-Dog said:
Since the imperative to consume is irrational (which is to say, an arbitrary biological fact of being an animal), this means we are the most efficiently irrational civilization in the history of humankind.


I actually wanted to argue this one, but in the meantime I kept getting pop ups for 'Tickle, a matchmaking service' and a book with some enourmous breasted she-woman on the cover..... So, uh, I think I'll just let that one slide for now.

As for the part about convictions, yes, technically "cover my own rear no matter what" is a conviction so, yes, technically we are making distinctions between types of conviction. I was merely using the word in the sense of excluding convictions that aren't very convicting, such as "If one of my girlfriends gets pregnant, I'm outta here."

For the avatar I'm looking for one with the guy from Monte Python herding his kids because he had ".............more bloody children than he could bloody well feed." ;)
 
Do we have a mass culture? I'm not convinced that we do. I actually believe the opposite is happening. Whereas we once had a more homogenized culture, we have one that is now much more diverse. I remember when the entertainment that could be had on TV was limited to 3 channels, now there are dozens. I also remember when sports was limited to the the Olympics, baseball, and football. Basketball was a mildly interesting sport, but now there are dozens of sports that young people play and no one sport has captured America's attention, and that includes football, which has seen its market share on TV drop steadily year by year.
I also remember ethnic food was either Chinese or Italian. Now, in small towns like the one I live in, there are Japanese, Mexican (authentic ones no less), Thai, and other exotic blends.
There are many others instances that I could name as well, such as news organizations being forced to keep up with political blogs or the wider assortment of viewpoints that we come across thanks to the internet. Or even coffee. Twenty years ago, no one where I grew up knew what a latte was.
I would agree that the places and businesses from which we purchase the commodities that we consume have become larger in general and more corporate, but our culture has not.
 
Radone, read this link: One set of definitions for Mass Culture

While there are a few minor quibbles I have with it, the writer gives the key difference between Mass and Popular Culture - that of passivity. Sure, there are all types of "ethnic" foods, but that very title - ethnic - and the fact that people have to purchase it rather than make it from scratch only serves to illustrate the nature of a Mass Culture. The number of TV stations or music choices is almost irrelevant, because these are "brands," again a component of Mass Culture.

See what No-Dog and I are getting at here? It's not a very optimistic view, I'll admit, having to come to terms with the fact that our environment is being shaped and reshaped by marketing values, but maybe there's some hope for originality out there somewhere.
 
I think I have more than a few quibbles with it. First, I don't understand what is meant by 'working class'. Does this refer only to those who work in manufacturing? It seems an anachronisitic caste based system of labelling people, and I don't think it really has much relevance in today's world.
A supposition is made that mass culture has replaced a vibrant and more interactive 'working class culture' or 'folk culture'. This is an assumption that I don't adhere to. I believe that the culture that we have today is different than that of our forefathers, but is that not simply a fact of life? You change or you stagnate. And are we worse off with this change?
The authors seem to have a rose-tinted view of the past. When I think of culture, I don't think of just the music played, the churches attended, the food prepared, or the physical labor that is done. I also think of how people actually spent their time, the opportunities to learn, and the fears that they had. 'Working class culture' or 'working class' is a phrase that I associate with those who toiled in factories during the waxing of the Industrial Revolution. I hope the authors don't suggest that the culture or manner in which those people lived their lives is one that should be emulated today. I'd rather not break my body working in a factory and die young. The phrase 'folk culture' seems to hearken to rural, pre-industrial village life, but the hardships and shortened lives of those who lived in such a way, along with the likelihood that you would have to bury several children make such a life unappealing.
My biggest problem, though, is that the article states that the working class (again I'm not sure who this is meant to represent) are 'brainwashed' by the rulers (who are not identified even in a generic sense and I'd really like to know who they are so I can become one of them :D ) and experience a 'euphoria of unhappiness'. This is a circular argument. If I state that more people in the West are happy than at any other time in history because they have more opportunities to explore the world, learn, become educated, become exposed to other cultures (and foods), then the authors would state that these people aren't really happy because their only consuming things and are experiencing a 'euphoria of unhappiness'. It becomes impossible to 'prove' someone's happy when the other guy can always pull out the trump card and say, "It's all just euphoria of unhappiness."
It also places people like the authors in the enviable position of being the only ones awake to what's going on since all the sheep and cows are too passive and pacified to actually see the truth - a somewhat elitist attitude I would say. :rolleyes:
My initial argument was that culture is not being homogenized, that it is actually splintering. But if by mass culture, you simply mean people are consuming more and more and that is in and of itself is a bad thing, I would have to differ. Any product can be defined as a consumable, be it a TV or a book. But, I think it is a good that there are so many varied consummable products in categorizies where there were once only 3 (such as TV channels).
I like the choices, but I suppose my enjoyment may simply be an illusion, but I can live with that - quite easily I might add. :)
 
It is a curious definition - especially the way they parse things as 'left' and 'right' - I've yet to encounter a 'right wing' view that fits their picture. All in all, I think it's a poor explanation.

I'm not sure why you have a problem with 'working class,' Radone. It simply means the working poor, who were actually better served economically by manufacturing (where collective bargaining rights could actually secure them a decent living) than they are now in this day and age of McJobs. If you're referring to manufacturing in the Dickinsian sense, when children were chained to their machines, then it's not clear who or what you're arguing against: no one is going to deny that we, in the industrialized world at least, are 'better off' in a material sense.

I do share your misgivings regarding the 'cretinization and pacification' of modern masses relative to the masses in previous eras. We've always been saddled with a whole host of cognitive shortcomings - we humans are easily mislead, period, and that applies as much to German expatriate intellectuals as much as it does to NASCAR fans. As for 'pacification,' regulating the actions of individuals is simply the function of the dominant ideology of every social system since the dawn of history. If anything, I think our situation relative our folk ancestors is quite the opposite: folk culture is very 'risk averse.'

Regarding the happiness question, your objection is, hands down, the most common objection I encounter in the classroom. 'If you're happy, you're happy, so what's the big whup?' My response is always: 'If your spouse was having an affair, would you rather know and be miserable, or not know and be happy?' I think for most people the need to know trumps the need to be happy. From a critical theory standpoint, we're happy the way our pets are happy when they're well fed and continually stroked. The high suicide rates and incidence of depression, they would argue, is a symptom of just how inauthentic this happiness is... I don't find this compelling, but it's certainly worth considering.

One way to think of mass culture and it's relation to previous cultural forms is this: Just a few centuries ago we personally knew, by and large, the people who made our clothes, grew our food, raised our rooves, and so on. As a result, the ethical dimension of our material interdependency could not be ignored - we had no choice but to think and act communally. Over time, the technological dividends of science allowed for the concentration of production, and the 'lines of supply' soon stretched beyond our circle of immediate knowledge. Suddenly, all our goods arrived anonymously, everything became commodities, and even though we were in fact more interdependent than ever before, we began to think we were independent. Given our innate egocentrism, we actually started to believe that we were the author of our material necessities - 'I worked hard for those Nikes, dammit!' The thirteen year old in Indonesia who actually made them was little more than an abstraction. We have enough difficulty feeling ethically responsible for strangers, let alone abstract strangers. And a sense of ethical responsibility is the glue of community.

At the same time, cultural production also became concentrated and commodified, which is to say, something produced en masse by strangers and bought and sold by strangers. Since the institutions responsible for concentrated production (corporations) are primarily motivated by the immediate self-interest of their investors - by 'profit' - they tend to produce or promote primarily those products which will have uniform appeal, and since we consumers are hardwired to generally prefer flattery over critique, simplicity over complexity, and certainty over doubt, the preponderance of products they distribute tend to be simplistic and apologetic. Since pseudo-individualism is the status quo ideology, we find it replicated over and over again across different media. People shuffle off to work day in and day out, convinced of their rebellious independence, which they express through their consumer 'choices.'
 
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All this reminds me of a commercial that's been running on American TV lately, especially during the Olympics. It's for some kind of car (can't remember which kind). But the commerical sort of amuses me, sort of pisses me off. It talks about a memo that just went out saying that all sedans have to conform to certain criteria, no leather seats, no this, no that, but urging people to be "original" and run out and buy one of these that they're advertising because it breaks the mold and isn't "just like all the other sedans" and people have the right to be individuals, not just corporate sheep. I laugh and laugh sometimes because it's just urging them to be corporate sheep to a different corporation, but at the same time stroking their egos, telling them if they join "this" crowd they'll be unique.

And just as a side note, I go into a mall less than five times a year, probably less than three.
 
The term "working class" if it is strictly confined to 'working poor' is fine, but too often it isn't used to describe the working poor but simply those involved in construction or manufacturing - blue collar if you will. But, I'm not sure why it is felt that such a culture as it once existed is superior to what is now present.
Also, you point out that the working poor were better served in manufacturing (by this I'm guessing you meant economically) in the past than they are now in this day and age of McJobs. Does this not run counter to much of what was said in the thesis about mass culture? The authors of that article indicated that the 'rulers' are pacifying 'working class' people by seducing them with consumer goods. What's left unsaid is that the working class can actually afford more and more of these items. The authors state that people are becoming passive users of more and more consumer goods, but they also have to be able to afford them. How then can they afford them if they are economically worse off than before?

We have enough difficulty feeling ethically responsible for strangers, let alone abstract strangers. And a sense of ethical responsibility is the glue of community.

Did more agrarian or village based cultures take better care of their worst off than we do? I would argue 'no'. The social contract with welfare and social security may be based on self-interest, but I think it is also better than hoping that a sense of ethical responsibility of you fellow villagers will cause them to help you out if you are down on your luck. The idea that agrarian life or even the culture of the working poor was based on a sense of ethical responsibilty is reading too much into those cultures and not based on facts.
I too, would appreciate it if what drove us wasn't so egocentric, but that does appear to be how we are hardwired, at least up to a point. I am not dismayed by it, though, because we can still harness that self-centeredness to do much good that we know spiritually needs doing. In that I'm in agreement with Tex Mex that if a good deed is done, why is the motivation behind the act so much more important than the act itself?
I still remain confused about mass culture. I understand your point that we are now strangers to those who make our things, but why is this bad? To be free of the constraints of strangers seems a natural human need even if it is presently an illusion.
Your example of being blissfully unaware but happy in your marriage vs. facing the truth that your wife is cheating on you is interesting, but doesn't seem to relate to what I was writing about. The idea that most people are feeling a 'euphoria of unhappiness' is a suppositiong. Where is the proof that they actually should be unhappy? This is in distinction to a cheating wife which is a specific reason why a person who is happy should, in fact, not be happy. Certainly there are indicators and statistics that more people commit suicide or use drugs in Western societies but it is not a strong or even a weak proof of anything. It is simply a set of statistics that can have multiple interpretations.
 
Church singing is rare? What state does that guy live in?

I don't think that there can be any argument that social elites have a more pervasive influence than ever before (NO! I DO NOT WANT TO MEET YOU, GET OFF MY SCREEN!) But Rad has a point. When they start trying to equate the current idiom to the historical ones I think the picture gets a little muddy.

First off, I'm not sure I'd agree with the statement that the "mass media" is primarily interested in money. Case in point: Hollywood. Get a few animation experts together in a room and make some silly little children's movie and you're almost guaranteed to make a couple hundred million dollars. So why are there so few? Because it's not sexy. Who wants to run around the Hollywood party scene and admit that they're the guy who directed "Bubby the Wonderpooch". No, they want to make something 'edgy, sophisticated, titilating, blah, blah, blah'. Something that gets talked about, that gets 'buzz'. I think most of them ascribe more value to 'buzz' than to money. And if society is so gullable in this day and age, then why are so many people against the very idea of SUV's? Why so much activism? Why can't Erfael get the message and go buy his sedan so that he can be 'unique'? ;) .

Now let's go back in history together and find some examples of nonconformist societies that were so tightly knit that they were impervious to things like a charismatic, but shallow, (or even psychotic) leader. Anybody, anyone.... Buhler..... Buhler..... C'mon, let's not romantize things. How many of these idyllic, pastoral communities ever heard things like this spoken in their midst -- "She's a witch!" "Whose a witch?" "She is!" "...........*in unison* BURN THE WITCH!"

Does that make sense? I'm saying that I agree with the first part of the equation -- that thanks to technology consumerism runs rampant in our society. It's the second part of the equation that I have trouble with -- consumerism leads to increased passivity. I understand the theory, but I just don't think that it is played out in reality. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it has to do with the mixed signals that the mass media keeps sending us. Maybe it's just that consumerism isn't as closely related to core ideals as the proponents of Mass Culture believe (which I think goes back to Gem's point about not worshipping at malls).
 
I work for 16.5 hours straight and come in to see that I'll need to explain certain definitions later, after I've slept some ;)

But for the time being, here are a few things to consider:

Mass implies things such as artificial anonymity, superficial sameness in the structures, and values that are extremely large in numbers (usually in the millions or billions).

Working class is basically as No-Dog defines it - it's the employees that are the working classes, not the bosses. At least that's how it's normally used in a 19th century context and in the sense that I meant when I chose this. So if you're not a boss and if you're making an hourly wage or a low salary-grade, you're working class. I practically depise the misleading "middle class" scales that Americans have employed for years, as I believe it is not as accurate as saying Lumpen Proletariat (the truly poor), the working class/proletariat, and the bosses/bourgeoisie (I'll exclude the nobility as belonging to a mostly outdated and anachronistic era).

So when I use "mass culture," I mean much more than McDonald's billions and billions served. I mean more than the ™ and © and ® around names. I mean the appropriation and subordination of core values for a specific reason, usually that of dominance of the working classes by their bosses, the grand bourgeoisie. Yes, I'm very much a Marxist when it comes to this view of social relations, as filtered through the latest sociological developments.

The Internet is a very prime example of mass acculturalization, in that regardless of national origin, the terms and expressions have become synchronized, with common symbols of expression. Millions and billions, often from the more affluent parts of their constituent societies, have adopted a code of behavior, expression, and dress that go far beyond mere consumerism. No-Dog rightly refers to the blind nature of this adoption. But keep in mind that mass culture is much, much more than just a positive/negative development. It's just a stage of social development (or social evolution, if you prefer) where the sources of cultural change and identification have been removed from the village, farm, or city and placed within a more amorphous context that is divorced from a specific origin.

But like I said above before I started writing, I'm tired and I need to sleep soon. I'll reply later. Ciao.
 
But, I'm not sure why it is felt that such a culture as it once existed is superior to what is now present.

I'm not sure who thinks this. The point of this brand of social critique is simply that we've lost something in the course of being modern. No one (with exception of radical luddites, maybe, and they may be right, given that we're becoming the biggest extinction event to hit this planet since the dinosaurs were wiped out) is suggesting we go back to the 'good ol' days.' I know you're not suggesting we're superior in every way? What do you think we've lost?


The authors state that people are becoming passive users of more and more consumer goods, but they also have to be able to afford them. How then can they afford them if they are economically worse off than before?

I was just referring to the trend of the past thirty years here in North America. I'm too lazy to get off my ass and doublecheck (because unrestrained consumption has made it so huge! :D ), but during this time now, almost all increases in the GDP (and it's about doubled) have been going straight to the top 20% (and about 85% of that has gone to the top 5%). This was in reference to a comment you made regarding the working class, not the mass culture pdf.


Did more agrarian or village based cultures take better care of their worst off than we do? I would argue 'no'. The social contract with welfare and social security may be based on self-interest, but I think it is also better than hoping that a sense of ethical responsibility of you fellow villagers will cause them to help you out if you are down on your luck. The idea that agrarian life or even the culture of the working poor was based on a sense of ethical responsibilty is reading too much into those cultures and not based on facts.

I agree with this (I actually believe in 'moral progress' - though I think we've been backsliding as of late). The problem I was referring to has to do mainly with two things: the way material goods have fallen through the cracks of our ethical awareness, and our inability to appreciate our systematic function in larger social contexts.

Here's another way to look at it. For our ancestors, self-interest and communal interest were very closely aligned (for obvious evolutionary reasons), primarily because their material interdependencies were immediate. By the same token, they also had no doubt about the significance of their role in their community. Everyone then, as now, had a crucial part to play, but where it was clear and present then, it's fairly invisible now. This is a problem, no?


The idea that most people are feeling a 'euphoria of unhappiness' is a suppositiong. Where is the proof that they actually should be unhappy?

The average American gives 49 hours a week doing things they would rather not do (working) for the system. Since our lives, at the most fundamental level, are simply the time we have to live it, and since our lives is the thing we value the most, it becomes obvious that the working poor, far and away, give the most relative to what they receive, while the extremely wealthy give away the least. This inequity is simply a consequence of a market economy, and the reason we tolerate it is that market economies, when properly legislated, provide more for everyone in the long run - largely because of the incentives generated by this inequity (this is why you'll find some economists arguing that the growing gap between the rich and the poor is actually a good thing :eek: ).

Now if we actually lived in a meritocracy (which is to say, if we actually lived in a society where merit rather than heredity was the primary determinant of wealth), and if we actually educated everyone, rich and poor, such that they had a clear sense of the system they participated in day in and day out and of the political alternatives available for legislating that system, and if we actually had a culture that reflected all this, then I would be inclined to agree with you, Radone.

But the fact is we have none of these things. The masses (whose 49 hour a week contribution makes possible all the goods and services enjoyed by the wealthy) tend to have no sense of the system they belong to whatsoever. I see class after class of kids convinced of their 'limitless potential,' convinced they'll be multi-millionaires, who have none of the tools they need to interpret endless barage of messages thrown at them, let alone see past the parade of fallacies that politicians pose as 'argument,' ashamed of their jobs in retail, and with no sense whatsoever of the larger social reality, or the interests that play them like fiddles - primarily because they're 'tough-minded individuals' with their own personal sense of style, which they prove on a daily basis with their consumer choices.

This, I should add, isn't because all these people are 'stupid cretins,' but because they've been socialized in a way that suppresses the truth of their society. Because of our dominant ideology.

Given this, the case for exploitation is quite strong, don't you think? They should be unhappy because they have been deceived - the infidelity analogy, is right on the money, I think.
 
I think, No-Dog that we've discussing at cross purposes in a sense. Most of what I was responding to was the link that Aldarion supplied about the basis of Mass Culture. There was a lot there that I disagreed with.

So, what have we lost in modern culture? I think that we've stressed individual liberty, but have failed to stress social responsibility. By this, I don't mean charitable works, but the idea that our individuality shouldn't be stressed to the point that social cohesion is felt to be irrelevant.
By the same token, what we have gained shouldn't be dismissed either since in many of the earlier, rural cultures, many people had to suppress their individuality in order not to rock the boat.

Re-distribution of wealth as far as GDP goes is interesting, but I am often unimpressed with statistics that state how the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. The questions that should be asked: Are the poor getting poorer and if so how? Is there share of the GDP different now than what it was 30 years ago? Are they materially poorer? Are they intellectually more disadvantaged now than 30 years ago? What was the definition of poor 30 years ago vs. today? Is it defined simply as the bottom 10% of wage earners which could be significantly different today vs. 30 years ago. I'm also to lazy to check :D but I would suspect that the answers to some of these questions would change that debate.

By the same token, they also had no doubt about the significance of their role in their community. Everyone then, as now, had a crucial part to play, but where it was clear and present then, it's fairly invisible now. This is a problem, no?

I don't think I agree. We may have more angst now about what we should do with our lives, but that's because we have so many choices. We are sometimes frozen with indecision by the overwhelming choices in careers that we have. But, in my mind, that is better than no choice which is too often what our anscestors had to bear. After all, did all peasants really think being a farmer was the ideal career for them? I think if they could have had a choice, they would have said 'no'.
I just wish there was some way to truly measure a person's interests and let them have a chance to explore them.
The last three paragraphs you wrote, I can agree with and disagree with. The disagreement is that most wealth is inherited. In fact, about 2/3 to 3/4 of millionaires rose up from the middle class and didn't inherit their money. Most fortunes are squandered within 2 generations.
I don't interact with young people in the way you do, but I do have a sense that people are filled with much more potential than they allow themselves to believe. The biggest problem with education in this country is that a true assessment of economics is never presented. People are not taught or trained in simple personal finance from a young age or entrepreneurship. I think many people think "There's got to be a better way of making a living" but they don't where to look. If we did a better job of educating people on how to run their finances or start a small business, as a society, I think we'd be much better off.
As to whether working 49 hours a week in a job that is unloved leads to despondency, I would guess yes it can. But, I also think that it is not consumerism that is driving the driving force behind all this. I think it is lack of education about how to determine our talents and lack of education on how best to use those talents.
 
When was there ever a point in history when average people didn't devote most of the day to things that they wished they were not doing? Work is work and leisure is leisure. They have different definitions, right?

What I object to so much is the rhetoric of 'the working man' being used to incite the emotions of those who believe they fit into that category, against anyone making more than 100k a year. I was not aware that in order to 'work' you need to work for very little pay. I thought work was defined as an activity directed toward making or doing something. I wasn't aware that it was relative to compensation. I am not a memeber of any political party in this country, and I vote according to the specific candidate and his platform and beliefs. But i work very hard, every day, and I have done so for the past 28 years! I find it insulting that some democrats find it acceptable to exclude individuals who have struggled to succeed from the category of 'a working man' because they may have done well for themselves.

Possessions are supposed to enhance life and life's pleasures. But, doesn't it all depend upon the individual in the end anyway? Things are just things, and we all must evalutate what is meaningful to us individually. Just because our society is riddled with consumerism does not mean that we blindly plod along and succumb to the 'drug' of it. I repeat, I DON'T WORSHIP AT THE MALL, but I do go to it occassionally.


I don't know how many of you live in NYC. But, there is more diversity here than ever before. People are nicer and the city is safer (except for terrorism). Culture is rich - music is everywhere, art flourishes, as does theatre of all kinds. The effects of the 'malling down of America' may be felt more poingantly in more rural areas where opportunity and choice is not as avaliable, but I certainly wouldn't make any sweeping generalizations about it.
 
Gemquest, I'm not sure what you mean. In a culture bent on the adoration and emulation of those who live off the labour of others (which is what it means to be wealthy), any body or any institution that extols the virtues of the working poor is aces in my book.

Radone, we likely were at cross purposes regarding the 'manufacturing versus retail.' I started addressing what I thought was a mischaracterization of the critical theorists' position, and then veered off grind an old axe of mine. I'm veering off a bit more here, but that's because I find these discussions so damned informative - when flameproofed that is! ;)


Is there share of the GDP different now than what it was 30 years ago?

It's less. I'm not sure there's anyone, right or left who would disagree with this. The question is whether this is a bad thing (because equity is a cornerstone of a 'just society'), or a good thing (because cheap labour translates into greater global competitiveness, because scaling back on entitlements leads to increased efficiencies (due to market 'discipline')).

Your other points about actual quality of life are well taken: this is how the inequities of market economies are typically justified. In fact, this is how all hierarchies are justified: disproportionate power is ceded to the few for the benefit of the many. This is one reason why the communist experiment was such a disastrous failure: in place of 'evil capitalists' who at least have some public accountability, you had 'red directors' with no real accountability at all. Social hierarchy is inescapable. The question, as I see it, is one of what kind of system will best reward merit (as opposed to patronage or heredity) with power. I see our present society as just another historical step in that direction; better than what came before, but still quite some distance from where we need to be...

But, in my mind, that is better than no choice which is too often what our anscestors had to bear.

Again, the issue isn't 'Who had it worse?' but rather 'What have we lost?' and 'What do we need to do to recover what we have lost?'

The disagreement is that most wealth is inherited. In fact, about 2/3 to 3/4 of millionaires rose up from the middle class and didn't inherit their money. Most fortunes are squandered within 2 generations.

I always thought the number of 'self-made' millionaires tended to hover around 50%. The real problem, from a meritocracy standpoint, is that the statistical chances of actually attaining 'the American dream,' plummet the further down you go on the socio-economic ladder. Heredity is of vast importance - it really is. This strikes me as an obvious problem.

I agree with you about teaching household finance (as bad as the polarization of income might be, it's even worse when it comes to assets), though I would argue it's not as important as giving youth the knowledge they need to make rational political choices - to be citizens, in effect. I mean people don't even know what money, one of the primary organizing mechanisms of modern society, is, let alone the substantive differences between the left and the right, or the difference between ethical value and market value. There's no democracy without rational consensus, and very little I see, left or right, seems remotely rational. It's all rhetorical, which is to say, manipulative, because in the absence of knowledge and informal reasoning skills, that's what works. Take Michael Moore, for instance. As sympathetic to his conclusions as I sometimes am, there's very little that's rational in the path he takes to get to them. Fallacies and emotional appeals, everywhere you turn - it's terrifying when you think about it!

BTW: I always thought that '2 generations' thing was an urban myth. My problem is that I always encounter these statistics in a piecemeal fashion (though I try to be careful when it comes to sources). There's got to be some kind of clearinghouse for social statistics on the web somewhere - does anyone know?


As to whether working 49 hours a week in a job that is unloved leads to despondency, I would guess yes it can. But, I also think that it is not consumerism that is driving the driving force behind all this. I think it is lack of education about how to determine our talents and lack of education on how best to use those talents.

Even if we had the education you speak of, we would still need people to flip burgers, ring in groceries, and pump gas - in short, to give more in the way of goods and services than they receive - wouldn't we? For me, the problem is as much cultural as anything else (since I believe in free markets). As it stands, the wealthy tend to see themselves, not as the primary beneficiaries of the social weal (which they in fact are), but as the primary benefactors - and the crazy thing is that the vast majority of the poor agree (such is the power of ideology)! I mean, we live in a culture where welfare recipients are widely regarded as 'parasites,' while 'playboy millionaires,' who simply consume the goods and services provided by others without giving anything in return, are widely seen as the 'hosts.'
 
Why in the world do you say that: those who live off the labour of others is what it means to be wealthy? What an anachronistic characterization. In our society, we all live off of the labor of others. Do you grow your own vegetables and slaughter your own beef or build your own house? Did you purchase a car or a book, for that matter, or build them and write them all yourself? Are you living off of the labor of others? And if so, why consider it pejorative? And the wealthy can just as easily labor and provide for others as any other segment of the society. What 'wealthy' are you talking about? The Fords and the Rockefellers? Or your average middle management person? You can call it living off the labor of others or participating in a capitalistic society. It's all a matter of extremes.
 
Not to come off as a jerk or anything, but what does this or anything that has been posted have to do with theories about Big Fat Fantasy?
 

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