The Great Matrix Debate

[nobody]

Re: Matrix was no good!

Originally posted by flintorama
Not only were the new characters completely unrealized, they were simply boring! I especially love the fact that the commander of Zion is that all too familiar nialist character, who just wants to fight everything and allows his personal feelings to affect his judgement. What kind of idiot would allow this man to be in charge?

I have one comment to this (before I get shot by the CIA):
George Bush.
He might not be a perfect match but it goes to show that herds of human can be collective idiots while individually smart.

 

[nobody]

Originally posted by kahnovitch
The Oracle is a program? Why the Hell should he/she/it care about the plight of the human race?

This one of the things that bugged me about the first movie (a long with serveral other, great huge, holes in plot).

Until I came to the conclusion that what the people in the movie believe the real world is not infact real. I think that in the two movies so far the only "real" thing we have seen is about the first two second of the first movie. The rest is Mr Anderson/Neo in a virtual reality game, movie or drug like trip (don't forget what Mr Anderson's job is ment to be).

The second movie has only reinforced that idea, there were yet more inconsistancies in their "real" world and Zion.

Sorry if this a repeat of what has been said in other Matrix threads, I haven't got around to reading them yet.

 

[Pluvious]

Originally posted by nobody

This one of the things that bugged me about the first movie (a long with serveral other, great huge, holes in plot).

Until I came to the conclusion that what the people in the movie believe the real world is not infact real. I think that in the two movies so far the only "real" thing we have seen is about the first two second of the first movie. The rest is Mr Anderson/Neo in a virtual reality game, movie or drug like trip (don't forget what Mr Anderson's job is ment to be).

The second movie has only reinforced that idea, there were yet more inconsistancies in their "real" world and Zion.

Sorry if this a repeat of what has been said in other Matrix threads, I haven't got around to reading them yet.

What? You're going to have to explain these large plot holes in the first movie. I liked what "wasn't said" in the first movie, as opposed to all the "tryint to tell but failing" in the second movie.

 

[hclark]

My husband and I were both dissapointed in the second movie. The acting was particularly bad in the beginning and the fight scenes, while cool, went on forever. Most of the new characters lacked any depth whatsoever. The love scene was terrible and probably unnecessary unless it leads to a pregnancy or some other important plot element.

I think the primary reason for this one though was to set the scene for the final movie. I think (hope) the final one will be a lot better. I've heard a lot of people equate this to the second Star Wars movie.

 

[kahnovitch]

Originally posted by Pluvious


I liked what "wasn't said" in the first movie, as opposed to all the "trying to tell but failing" in the second movie.

I think that's the crux of it for me. The dialogue was mind-numbingly over-explanative (if there is such a word). I can't give any examples of it, as I was too busy resisting the urge to fall into a coma.

 

[kater]

Originally posted by Ouroboros


Ah, but was it the real world?

I genuinely think it is, if it isn't the plot becomes too complex and strays into the undesirable category of being one of those 'it was all a dream' movies, something I think the Wachowski's are well aware of. But I've been wrong before.

 

[nobody]

Originally posted by Pluvious


What? You're going to have to explain these large plot holes in the first movie. I liked what "wasn't said" in the first movie, as opposed to all the "tryint to tell but failing" in the second movie.

Ok most of them come from me being a hard science fiction fan, but to me the whole "real" world was all wrong. It was kind of cool but science wise it was crap, that is fine if it wasn't infact the real world. The most obvious is hole of these type (and in my oppinion fatal to the movie without other justification) is the machines using humans as an energy souce. I'll go into the science of this if you want...

Hope this helps you understand the way I see the movies.

 

[Evil Agent]

Without getting TOO in-depth, what's the science of that?

Honestly, it doesn't sound TOO far fetched for Sci-Fi. I know I've read less realistic or plausible ideas than tapping into the energy of the Human Body.

 

[flintorama]

I don't think he knows what he is talking about. I believe that the Matrix was quite realistic with the amount of energy a human body is churning out!

 

[trentdick2882]

I also remember reading something about how the human body is a pretty lame thing to get energy from. The cost of supporting the body and the energy you get from it is a poor trade-off, I can't remember the other reasons.

 

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by kater


I genuinely think it is, if it isn't the plot becomes too complex and strays into the undesirable category of being one of those 'it was all a dream' movies, something I think the Wachowski's are well aware of. But I've been wrong before.

Personally, I am undecided about the matter. I dislike both of the possibilities presented by Neo's generation of an EMP apparently outside of the Matrix.

What are they?

1- The 'real world' is just another facet of the Matrix. Zion, the sewers, the ships, the squids : just more detail to keep the rebellious minority of humans who fight the Matrix satisfied. To some extent this fits in with the idea presented in Reloaded of Zion and 'The One' as a kind of cyclical waste-collection mechanism for humans who can't be integrated into the Matrix.

2- It is indeed the 'real world' and Neo has demonstrated that indeed anything is possible. Next he'll be flying and breaking all the other laws of physics.

Of the two, I reckon (1) is slightly less cringe-worthy and (in a dumb way) more plausible...

 

[kater]

1.) is almost certainly more plausible but having seen the second trailer (I know they wouldn't spoil it in that) but I think that pursuing 2.) by using some excuse such as some filtered effect of Neo's interraction with the Matrix for the e-m pulse (in the same way Smith can roam free in the 'real world' ) is to me far preferable to the whole Matrix within the Matrix idea, I'm going to feel very cheated if 1.) is the case. I think Smith is the key, I believe that through being a part of Neo and vice versa has made a combination of man/machine in both of them which has expanded the boundaries of their capabilities in both worlds. And I have to frickin wait until November to find out what really happens (unless Kazaa gets stuff early )

 

[kahnovitch]

Originally posted by Ouroboros

1- The 'real world' is just another facet of the Matrix. Zion, the sewers, the ships, the squids : just more detail to keep the rebellious minority of humans who fight the Matrix satisfied

That's exactly what I've been thinking for a while and Neo's EMP burst in the "real world" could be proof of it.

However I think it's unlikely as would the machines most likely let the humans win the war and let them live in the new reality of the "real world" thinking they'd won and the struggle was over, whilst they were still in fact plugged in and living out an alternative reality.

What if the Matrix actually has a different world constucted for each individual human?

Some of them could be living out virtual lives in other periods of history such as Roman times, medieval times, or even in the far future saving the galaxy from the dark lords of Sith!
Each reality tailor made for each individual.
The possibilities are endless.

 

[Hungry Jo]

I have to say that although I enjoyed the first film, I did not think it was quite amazing as most people did, but the second film was actually a genuinly bad film.

The actions scenes are good for about 5mins, then they just boring. Ever time someone goes into slow motion and the tehcno beat kicks you just think, "oh no, here we go again" and go to sleep for another 15 mins.

Plot is flawed. Human bodies aren't a particularly efficent way of generating energy. Why not just sue nucluler power? Or with all those damn stomrs going on outside why not a few turbines. Or better still just use all your high technology to launch massive fields of solar panals into orbit and microwave the energy back to earth. We know how to do all these things we just don't do them on a grand scale because they cost to much, but they are alot cheaper than "human batteries"

And if human beings aren't "Born" presumably they are cloned in some way, in whcih case why not clone them with no real brains. Then you don't need a bloody matrix to keep the minds active, you just have human bodies which keep themselfs functioning but you don't need a consious brain to do all that. Or for that matter just use animals.

Oh and I'm not sure the thing at the end was an EMP pulse. I got the impression that Neo, having been to the source, had gained some kind of connection with the wider computer world beyond the Matrix and so had some influence there. I think he just "tunred off" the robots.

The whole "choice" thing was sooo cheesy as well. When he was told to choose between trinity and zion, he goes for trinity but you know he's going to save them both. I've pretty muched worked out what;s going to happen in the next one I think.

Neo and Trinity are going to die (remember Neo has to die to save humanity, he is after all, Christ) Trinity will probably go with him, it depends on whether he gets resurected (again).

Morpheus will live so he gets his girl.

The Commander guy who is after the same women as Morpheus will die very bravely and honarably. He is the man trying to do the best he can but he is misguided, oldest cliche in the book. (think Lt Gorman in Aliens or countless others).

Anyway, whole film just bored in in the end. Acting wasn't too hot either.

 

[nobody]

Originally posted by kahnovitch

However I think it's unlikely as would the machines most likely let the humans win the war and let them live in the new reality of the "real world" thinking they'd won and the struggle was over, whilst they were still in fact plugged in and living out an alternative reality.

Remember that the machines could just be a creation in the matrix and the "real" world. The machines could be distracting the people stuck inside from learning the true purpose of the matrix.

What if the Matrix actually has a different world constucted for each individual human?

Some of them could be living out virtual lives in other periods of history such as Roman times, medieval times, or even in the far future saving the galaxy from the dark lords of Sith!
Each reality tailor made for each individual.
The possibilities are endless.

I kind of like this idea, pure escapism but I think that is unlikely in these movies.

 

[Lifino]

What if it turns out that they are on Star Trek, and it turns out that Neo has been on the Holo-Deck all this time...?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[nobody]

Originally posted by Hungry Jo
Plot is flawed. Human bodies aren't a particularly efficent way of generating energy. Why not just sue nucluler power? Or with all those damn stomrs going on outside why not a few turbines. Or better still just use all your high technology to launch massive fields of solar panals into orbit and microwave the energy back to earth. We know how to do all these things we just don't do them on a grand scale because they cost to much, but they are alot cheaper than "human batteries"

Thankyou Hungry Jo, to add to this Human don't really produce any energy. They convert what we eat into energy and we aren't even very efficient at it. What were the machines feeding the people with? A little can be recycled from dead people. With the sun blacked out plant would grow (at least that was their justification) the rest would have to be synthesized by the machines, which would use far more energy than the humans would convert back into energy.

Originally posted by flintorama

I don't think he knows what he is talking about. I believe that the Matrix was quite realistic with the amount of energy a human body is churning out!

I may have got my science a little wrong I'm an ecologist rather than a physicist or chemist.

This doesn't destroy the movie, either people of Zion lied to Neo (and us) or they believed that was the reason for the Matrix. The machines however will certainly know that they are losing power on maintaining the humans so they are keeping humans for a reason other than an energy source. A couple of ideas are (not in any way an exhaustive list) :
1) Humans had a nuclear war and rather than live through the nuclear winter created the matrix and the machines to sustain them until the world is colonizable again.
2) Machines are not capable of original thought and keep the humans live to come up with new ideas, the matrix being a research facility for them.

The other option that I (and many others) have already put forward is that the Zion world is not in real at all. I personal favour this option as I felt Zion world had other inconsistencies but nothing too drastic. If this is the case then I have no idea what really is going on, but I think that Mr Anderson's original profession of making VR drugs might be a big clue.

As for Neo's EMP wave at the end, I have no idea what it means, and don't plan to speculate.

Originally posted by elendil

Honestly, it doesn't sound TOO far fetched for Sci-Fi. I know I've read less realistic or plausible ideas than tapping into the energy of the Human Body.

Don't get me wrong although I have been arguing against the science of the human power sources the science isn't nearly as bad as some "sci fi" movies, mimic and pitch black spring to mind. And once I came to the conclusion that people in the film were lying to Neo (and us) or were just misinformed themselves I didn't mind at all, it was just another mystery that we haven't been told about yet. I might be annoyed if I go to the last movie and still have no idea about what has happened.

 

[nobody]

Originally posted by Lifino
What if it turns out that they are on Star Trek, and it turns out that Neo has been on the Holo-Deck all this time...?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Well my current theory isn't too far from this. I think he has taken a VR drug, or is in a VR game/movie just cyberpunk terms for being on the Holo-Deck really.

 

[Shehzad]

Originally posted by Hungry Jo
Why not just sue nucluler power?

Sorry can't resist:

Because Nuclear Power doesn't have an attorney...!

 

[Asraloth]

about the human battery thing:

in the first film, morpheus says that "combined with a form of fusion, the machines had all the energy they needed."

ok, i know it is a rather lame explanation, but we aren't privy to the nature of this fusion so they don't really need to explain the human battery thing. perhaps it accentuates the body heat, bioelectric energy our bodies produce.