The Thousandfold Thought (NON-SPOILER THREAD)

Anyone can go into deep details about meditation and what it does or creates but it does nothing compared with actually experiencing for yourself what it gives you. No one can make another person understand what it does, what it is or what it means.

I myself am not to the point of knowing whether higher orders of reality can exist. But I do know i've experienced a kind of oneness, which was the most powerful and beautiful thing i've encountered in my life.

The only thing I really know for myself is that meditation brings me to a higher level of awareness, which in turn lets me get more out of my experiences in life. It lets me see things I wouldn't see otherwise.
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The thing that freaks me out is that meditation literally rewires our brains - which is just to say that it rewires who we are. Since the brain I got seems to be doing everything I want it to, I think I'll restrict myself to hearing the reports from people like you, Grr Hick!

I do have an urge, though to try something called transcranial magnetic stimulation, which apparently can induce the 'feeling of oneness' you're speaking of without the rigourous and irrevocable retraining of neural circuits.
 
Reply to Brain Rewiring

Ahh, I understand your reasoning for being concerned now... and I truly can see that your brain is doing what you want it to do and what I want it to do as long as you keep writing amazing books like the ones of PoN. :) But if I may.. I would like to try and restructure what you said to what I believe about the rewiring of our brains.

From what I know Meditation does add more neural pathways between cells in our brain but this does not nessessarily mean it changes who we are. Meditation can never change the events and experiences in our lives, only add new incredibly powerful ones and give us a new more positive way to look at some of the older ones! :)

Adding more neural pathways in our brain merely gives us more complexity, range and potential of understanding. It's kind of like a computer processer in my eyes. The more transistors and the closer and more choices the information has in terms of pathways, the more it can handle at once. Which for us would mean more free processing power which in turn lets us become more aware of all that is going on in the here and now! And also more ways of seeing things such as how I've just seen the above. :)

I really enjoy getting feedback from you scott, I also feel that I should tell you a bit about myself so you know where this kind of stuff is coming from, lolz.

My names Ryan Hickey, Im 19 and currently in 1st year of fitness and health promotions at Loyalist college and I live in Ontario, Canada. Nice to meet you! hehe. I just don't like going by alias's with people im having intelligent commuinication with.. (and trust me it doesn't happen often over the internet) I like to let them know that its.. ME! :D

Lastly I don't want you to feel like im trying to convince you to meditate. I just really enjoy talking about it and hearing different viewpoints about it. Especially viewpoints from someone I know is talented and obviously intelligent. Also this gives me a chance to see how well I can explain this subject to other people seeing one day I hope to be spreading the benefits of regular meditation practices to everyone! :)

Oh and that "transcranial magnetic stimulation" sounds pretty interesting I may have to look into that!

But anyways I better get going, I have wood to put in my basement... haha. Well have a good one Scott and im looking forward to any replies! Bye!
 
Nice to meet you, Ryan! You make a good point. Everything our brain does involves rewiring and unwiring - it's simply a matter of degree. Brain imaging studies of Tibetan monks, for instance, shows that they've manage to train their brains to operate quite differently from the rest of us. Meditation literally sculpts the brain. There's no evidence (that I'm aware of) that it produces 'more connections,' only that it produces different connections. And if it does that, then there's no shutting it on and off: it's literally transforms who you are.

Meditation is a technique developed by humans, which means that it's an artificial intervention, and a significant one at that, in the way the brain functions (albeit, one that has proven track record of physical benefits). But if you strip away the various traditional claims regarding its spiritual or metaphysical significance, then the question, 'Should I meditate,' it seems to me, becomes a plain old therapeutic one. And the obvious rule of thumb here is 'if ain't broken don't fix it.'

I think any artificial means of substantially rewiring one's brain is something that needs to be considered carefully.
 
Hey again, yes I have also seen the Tibetan monks brain scans.. very interesting... I have also seen something about them sleeping in the mountain in minus 30 degree temperature. im not quite sure on details but doctor who witnessed it were astonished that they would survive that.

Also as for meditation being an artificial intervention, I must state the following.. Again as my own opinion and from learning what I have.

Meditation is something that we all participate in on a regular basis.. just at varying degrees throughout the day... whenever we are gently concentrating or doing some relaxing. These things slow our brainwaves to the same levels that are connected with meditation. just not as consistantly or for an extended amount of time. Therefore meditation is just a concentrated version of many activies we might be involved in during our day.

But anyways I must go to work now.. I accidently reloaded this page after nearly completing my post... and now had to redo it all... frustrating, haha. And now it's not as well worded or complete.... oh well... haha. see you later!

Oh! the book link, Hey if your interest in the science part of meditation, and wanna hear actual facts on it check out "Theresholds of the mind" (Bill Harris, 2002), it puts everything into good perspective. See ya!
 
Meditation is something that we all participate in on a regular basis.. just at varying degrees throughout the day... whenever we are gently concentrating or doing some relaxing. These things slow our brainwaves to the same levels that are connected with meditation. just not as consistantly or for an extended amount of time. Therefore meditation is just a concentrated version of many activies we might be involved in during our day.
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Gotta love debate!

Consider the following: 'torture is something we participate on a regular basis. Whenever say an inconsiderate word or step on another person's toe or scowl, we're actually practicing torture at varying degrees. Torture is just a concentrated version of many activities we might be involved in during our day.' This is a clear cut fallacy of equivocation. All the points you would make to show how torture is different - the fact that it has specific goals, that it's an intentional practice, that it has a long history of study and elaboration, and so on - apply to meditation as well. Meditation is a distinct practice: that's why we invented a specialized term for it in the first place.

Meditation is a self-conscious procedure, as man-made as any other self-conscious procedure, and so as artificial. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this, aside from the fact that it runs counter to several traditional associations people have regarding meditation. People tend to think things with long histories are 'more natural' than things with short histories - which is not at all the case.

Describing things in terms of just what, physically, is going on, often makes people crinkle their nose, but it doesn't make those descriptions any less accurate. For instance, when you fart with you buddies, molecules released from your anus find their way into their respiratory systems. That description certainly puts an ugly spin on what might seem a harmless joke otherwise, but it does in fact describe what's going on.

Likewise, medititation is an artificial means of substantially rewiring our brains. This is simply what it is: the question is whether this is a good thing or not. I think for some people, it could have tremendous therapeutic value, whereas for others, none at all. Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing for ALL people?
 
Hehe, this is getting pretty intense now eh?? :D

Ok I see and know.. how anyone can stand up for the point of anything... it all comes back to what we believe or stand for.. and how our ego's like to back it up 100% subconiously. Even though we say were open to others ideas. So for me this means I must get back to the basics.

The basics for me are...as follows, this is what I understand meditation does..

When we meditate, we become more aware, by gaining awareness, we come to understand more of what we perceive in life, as we understand more of what we perceive in life, we become more, and by becoming more, we attain happiness.. And what other goal in life is more dominant then wanting to better ourselves...This is the most basic way I can see it.

The whole goal of my life is to better myself mentally, physically, and at the same time help others do the same as best I can. But you can't make people understand. you can't make people want to become more... you can't make people see anymore more then they want to let theirselves see.. This is the frustrating part..

Don't get me wrong im far from perfect. I have tons to learn. I know precious little of what there is to know.. I just don't want you to think that I think I have all the answers... We all have a couple pieces of the puzzle.. All we have to do is connect and understand each other.. and share our pieces to complete it!

As for whether or not I believe meditation is good for ALL people.... I think not at all if people take it as something negative. or unbenificial... If someone doesn't see the good in something it's very unlikely they'll find the good in it... As I said you can't make someone SEE anything.. they have to want to see it... with no effort you get no results.. we could wish and wish all day that we say had a better job, were stronger, had more friends... but if you don't believe thoughs things are possible for you, you won't be motivated to try. And if your not motivated to try you'll never get thoughs things that you'd like.

The way I see it.. is if you don't ask questions you don't get answers, If you don't TRY things you'll never know whether it's good or not.

It's a risk of life.. say with the first people on the planet, how'd they know what plants to eat? They didnt one of them just ate it.. if the person died.. his buddies learned the lesson. But meditation has been around a long time and people still see/feel the benefits of it. More and more are everyday.. :D

The one thing I can say is that I have never seen anything, absolutely anything negative about meditation. I've seen uncertainty lots of times.. which is fine there are lots of things to be uncertain of in life.. and it's good to be cautious. But if someone believes theres MORE, then they will find MORE

I'm not really in a very good thinking mood right now.. so this is the best I can do.. I know im off topic..and all over the place, but i don't know how many hard details I can handle at the moment.

But ya another E-book (free by the way) not devoted to meditation but which has something to do with it and much more is "The Freedom of Choice" (Thomas J, Chalko). Check it out if you want some thought provoking reading, anyways im outta here, if you do check out this E-book send me your thoughts on it please. Thanks and im still enjoying this discussion!! :D
 
Hmmm... I'm not sure I understand.

I realize it's difficult to change people's minds, but it's not impossible, especially when people can agree on what criteria need to be met for them to change their mind. This very e-discussion, for example, is possible because of literally of hundreds of thousands of researchers changing their minds - that's how science works. I, personally, have arrived at my present overall position (skeptical naturalism) through a long process of conceding points and arguments - more than I can count!

As it stands, I'm not clear on what your position actually is, Ryan. You never said, for instance, whether you agree that 'meditation is an artificial procedure for substantially rewiring our brains.' If you disagree, then what are your reasons for doing so? Do you not think your first argument (that we're always meditating anyway) was simply an equivocation? If so, you need to provide reasons (just saying people believe whatever they want is usually a defense mechanism, like getting angry, for people who don't have any reasons, but still want to claim the truth of their beliefs. The fact is, reasoning works; it just requires openness from the parties involved and an understanding of a few basic rules, none of which we are ever taught in school (of course)).

We need to sort this out because we first need to agree on what meditation in fact is before we can discuss it's value.

Like I say, any artificial procedure that substantially and irrevocably changes how our brain is wired, substantially changes who we are as well - changes don't get much more profound. Reasons are required.
 
Describing things in terms of just what, physically, is going on, often makes people crinkle their nose, but it doesn't make those descriptions any less accurate. For instance, when you fart with you buddies, molecules released from your anus find their way into their respiratory systems. That description certainly puts an ugly spin on what might seem a harmless joke otherwise, but it does in fact describe what's going on.
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Ya know...I've been reading this little discussion with some interest, but this bit right here just cuts through SO many metaphysical/philosophical understandings of how events/causes interact and just serves to remind me of what comes before will determine what comes after...even if that might mean that the natural methane release will trigger certain psychomotor responses in people ;)

Seriously though, isn't that question of "Who am I?" just so applicable here?
 
I'd prefer to speak of "what we are like". Because changes then seem easier to track and compare. And I'm relieved of the question at what point I'm sufficiantly different from what I was like before to say I'm no longer who I was.
 
I sometimes think the fate of humanity relies on the difference between those two, D: who we are, versus, what we're like.

even if that might mean that the natural methane release will trigger certain psychomotor responses in people
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Such as the auditory output: "Like, who cut the cheese, man?"
 
Scott Bakker said:
I sometimes think the fate of humanity relies on the difference between those two, D: who we are, versus, what we're like.
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Bloody self-awareness. Always causing problems...
 
Scott Bakker said:
I sometimes think the fate of humanity relies on the difference between those two, D: who we are, versus, what we're like.
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I agree so much with this statement here, although the trick seems to be making up one's mind/soul/spirit as to how we differentiate between the 'who' and the 'what'. And in re-readingTDTCB again (in preps for TTT arriving any day now) last night, couldn't help but think of this discussion here as I was reading the prologue section. Might make for an interesting review of the series when I get around to writing that in a week or two after TTT arrives at my doorstep :D

Such as the auditory output: "Like, who cut the cheese, man?"
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Of course! Guys are SO full of great wisdom and commentary. But are the reactions that males and females have strictly cultural, or are there biological differences in those reactions? Maybe this could lead to a group of psychologists and biologists getting a grant to study this. Whadda think? ;)
 
Scott Bakker said:
As it stands, I'm not clear on what your position actually is, Ryan. You never said, for instance, whether you agree that 'meditation is an artificial procedure for substantially rewiring our brains.' If you disagree, then what are your reasons for doing so? Do you not think your first argument (that we're always meditating anyway) was simply an equivocation? If so, you need to provide reasons (just saying people believe whatever they want is usually a defense mechanism, like getting angry, for people who don't have any reasons, but still want to claim the truth of their beliefs. The fact is, reasoning works; it just requires openness from the parties involved and an understanding of a few basic rules, none of which we are ever taught in school (of course)).

We need to sort this out because we first need to agree on what meditation in fact is before we can discuss it's value.

Like I say, any artificial procedure that substantially and irrevocably changes how our brain is wired, substantially changes who we are as well - changes don't get much more profound. Reasons are required.
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Ahh.. my position?? hmmmm, I must admit that I don't actually have a solid position... my state of mind is my position...and thankfully it is ever changing and ever evolving... Adding things in, taking things out, finding better answers... discovering new questions....

I don't think that everything has to be reasoned... some things just ARE.. and as of now in our human existence we have discovered precious little of what there is to discover.. So I don't plan on making 100% sense of anything...I just know for myself that some things just ARE... I know this won't help me in persuading other people or trying to get them to understand.. But I know for myself that I am not at the point in my life where I am so certain of something that I have wanted to take the time to develop concrete theories or ideas. Though I do really enjoy learning with and from you and everyone else I come in contact with in my life. (Remember im only 19 I have a lot more learning to do )

But for me, this kind of discussion is very informal and helpful, albeit getting a little to fact based for my likings... As I said.. I KNOW for myself that meditation has helped me understand more in a shorter time then anything else ever has and at this point in my life I don't feel I can or need to explain it to anyone.

It's just hard not to get excited about having a chance to spread it to other people... and help them understand it for themselves. instead of people trying to make sense of something they have never experienced. It's like someone saying "ewww I hate broccoli" without actually having tried it they've already made a decision based on observations they've made through other peoples beliefs and opinions. The best way to understand is to experience in my opinion. You can read all the books in the world on how to ride a bike and there’s still no guarantee you won't fall the first time you get on it.

I feel one big road block in people attaining MORE is that they feel as if they've found the one and only answer. Then they're not willing to see anymore new ideas or missing pieces... I don't think its beneficial for humans mental development to find any concrete answers... because in doing so they're blocking out the possibilities of anything else ever being possible besides what they think they KNOW for sure.

It's almost like some religious people to me...(no offense to anyone really religious don't worry I believe in a higher power. But that’s all I feel certain of at this point in my life) How they can just except something as the only answer without looking at everything else with their own minds.. and understanding it for themselves. For me there is always MORE... the only thing keeping us from finding this more is by us limiting our limitless potential....

Wow, ha ha I know it seems I blab on a lot... Its just upsetting to not be able to make someone understand or see it... Such is life and its ever arising trials... All I can do for now I guess is keep being happy on my jolly little path!

If I didn't really answer some questions you had for me, please feel free to restate them clearly and I will attempt to give you the closest thing to an answer as I can but I can't promise you it won't change by the next reply!!

All I can say is that I love life and it's complexity and yet at the same time it's simplicity...It's all in how we look at it I guess. THERES JUST SO MUCH TO UNDERSTAND!!!

I really encourage anyone out there who ever thinks about life, existence, our minds or anything meaningful to read "The Freedom of Choice" (Thomas J, Chalko) it's a free E-book, heres the link. Its a very thought provoking book

http://bioresonant.com/freebooks.html
 
You still haven't answered my questions, GH! :eek: If you are open to any alternative, why would you avoid my questions?

I personally have no absolute certainty in anything - particularly in those things that seem to 'just be true,' or things that flatter me into thinking I've somehow surpassed what others see. We humans have been cooking up crazy, flattering ideas since the dawn of history, and no one seems to be able to agree with anyone else who really is 'chosen,' or who possesses 'divine right,' or who has 'expanded consciousness.' So the rule of thumb that I use is simply, 'truths that flatter rarely matter.' :D

Doubt, doubt, doubt is my mantra. It's the basis of new understanding, which in turn is the basis of expanded compassion, and that seems to generally be a good thing.

Think about it. The universe is so vast that much of the starlight we see dates back to the dinosaurs, and our brain is only three pounds... Three pounds! We're like plankton trying to comprehend the ocean.

That said, we're plainly not entirely adrift. Things like this computer, vaccines for avian flu, and nuclear explosions seem to suggest we get things right enough now and again. And those achievements all share one thing in common: a method that utilizes skepticism, observation, and reason. A methodology not, by the way, employed by Chalko - or by anyone else who speculates on the 'truth' of things like 'freedom' and 'choice.' He may seem impressive, but only because you don't have any frame of reference. There's many, many websites devoted to the ancient debate on freedom and the will. Simply do a google and you'll find a plethora of resources. A good starting point would be the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (which is online), which should give you a sense of the various positions out there. If you want a naturalist approach, which is to say, one that uses the method of skepticism, observation, and reason I mentioned above, I recommend Dan Wegner's The Illusion of Conscious Will - though I warn you, it likely won't be kind to your hopes and preconceptions.

Remember: in study after study, people demonstrate that they primarily believe those things they want to be true. That's why we always cringe when our friends ask us to 'tell them what we really think.' We know they want to be catered to, because we know that we want to be catered as well. We humans are actually quite bad at simply 'lucking our way' to robust beliefs. By and large, truth tends to be more bitter than sweet. Which is exactly what you would expect, since what's true is true independent of our hopes and aspirations. We have no reason to assume that things will be the way we want them to be, and lots of reasons to suppose that they won't.

That's why it took us so bloody long to come up with science. And that's why people still balk at those theories which threaten their cherished views.

Is it possible this is the reason you've dodged my questions? You do seem to be more interested in debating your way out of a debate on meditation... It seems that way, anyway.
 
Sorry this may be a bit short... Must study for A & P test tomorrow.

If you think that I'm dodging your questions.. I say that maybe i'm just not catering to you in the way you'd hope.. I'm certainly not here to bash anyone's opinions or try and make anyone seem wrong, those are not my inhibitions. I merely would like to take in someone's views and ideas, then pick them apart to see what's useful... This for me isn't about wanting to feel like im correct... Because as I've said for someone to KNOW they're correct is to block anymore possibilities for further information... they blind their selves from seeing any recently undiscovered information.. and keep it covered for egos sake.

As I said in my post before "If I didn't really answer some questions you had for me, please feel free to restate them clearly and I will attempt to give you the closest thing to an answer as I can" Therefore I don't see that I avoided your questions I just can't clearly see the questions your asking and likely hoping to trounce me on. :eek:

As I said i'm not in a competition to prove my opinion. I just hope to further expand my understanding by continuing this discussion. And so far i'm doing so.. as long as your willing to understand with me... and not put up walls against me... But I do understand your a person of doubt and that's fine... I would just hope that your still open to new information as at the start it seemed you were.

I thank you for the book titles and will be sure to look into them, maybe even go as far as reading them if time permits. (got to keep up the schooling, strength training program and meditation :D )

I really enjoy discussing anything to do with lifes mysteries and new ideas... I just hope that we can maintain an environment in which we could learn together. Openness is where we can truly connect and be able understand each other.. The less ego has to do with this.. the more free we are to learn.

But I need to get some studying done! hope to hear from you soon! :)
 
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It's not a matter of you not giving me the answers I want, GH - for a couple posts now you haven't given me an answer at all! I'd actually be happy with an answer I don't like. :D

The question was, Do you agree that meditation is an artificial means of rewiring the brain? And if not, why?

(Remember, saying meditation is 'natural' because we 'do it all the time' is simply equivocating 'meditation' the way I equivocated 'torture' in my earlier counter-example. It seems pretty clear that meditation is a distinct practice. If you disagree with this, then we can start here instead: Why do you disagree?)

Until we sort this out, there's no way to ask the question of meditation's value. This is question I'm most interested in exploring.

I know you're cynical, but this argument stuff really works! We just need to keep our eyes on the prize (namely, arriving at a better view than the one we have now).
 
I do not agree that meditation is an artificial means of rewiring the brain.. As I said I believe it is something we do all the time throughout or lives... Maybe not always conciously either.... But it can be chosen and enhanced... Just like I can choose and enhance the use of my muscles.. or just go about my day getting the minimal exercise (walking, sitting etc.) that we usually don't look at conciously as exercise... seeing it's something we just DO without thinking much about it. But this doesn't mean it's artifcial. I could let my mind do the minimal amount of work it needs or enhance a certain aspect of it, such as awareness through meditation. Which leads to getting more out of what we perceive.. which leads to more compehension of lives events.

I feel meditation is to the mind as say weight training is to our muscles... Same pricipals, but a different outcome... Unless your considering the very broad outcome of better yourself as a being, in my opinion. I don't want you to think that I feel meditation is the "fix all" for our mind and brains development..As with weight training not being the only part of physcial fitness and wellness. Meditation is one of many mental development exercises. But it just so happens that I feel it is one that the general population is really missing out on... along with many other things... regular physical exercise being another...

So if in saying meditation is an artifical means of rewiring our brains. Then in comparsion weight training would be an artifcial way to rewire our muscles, motor receptors and everything else to do with changing the entire structure of our body to better our physical abilities??

Sorry I must end here have to go to computer class.... :)
 
Now we're in business. :D

So you don't think that meditation is a distinct practice invented by humans? Like torture, which is another distinct practice invented by humans, it takes things we already do and rationalizes them for a particular purpose. In this sense, it is no more or no less 'natural' than torture, wouldn't you agree?

If the word, 'artificial' troubles you, would you be happier with 'artifactual'?
 
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