The Traditional Races

[Luya Sevrein]

Hey guys,

I've been writing a new idea for a novel, and in it, I've decided to use some of the 'traditional' fantasy races. I don't want an argument as to wether they are traditional or not, that can be subjective, but they are well-known even without the mainstream consiousness. I'm talking, mainly, Dwarves and Elves. But I suppose you can have Murfolk, Giants, etc.

I have never used them before, though I know their tropes. I'm wondering how best to write them, for your point of view.

I don't want to be unorigional and stereotypical, though I don't want to make them so far from what they are that they are no longer the race they were, because that might look like I've wanted to make my own race but copped out and used a template. Which I'm not trying to do.

Has anyone ever worked with these races or does anyone have any strong thoughts on the matter?

 

[PeteMC]

It's purely personal opinion, but when I'm in the bookshop and I pick a book up to read the blurb, if I see the word "Elf" anywhere I put it down again and move on...

 

[Luya Sevrein]

It's purely personal opinion, but when I'm in the bookshop and I pick a book up to read the blurb, if I see the word "Elf" anywhere I put it down again and move on...

Well, personally, I don't like elves... So, I um... Made them all conviniently die out and tied it in with the plot. << >>; I know that's pretty childish, but I won't enjoy writing something I don't care about.

The only truely trope race I'm including is Dwarves. You might be the same with Dwarves, but oh well, persnoal opinion!

 

[PeteMC]

Well, personally, I don't like elves... So, I um... Made them all conviniently die out and tied it in with the plot. << >>; I know that's pretty childish, but I won't enjoy writing something I don't care about.

The only truely trope race I'm including is Dwarves. You might be the same with Dwarves, but oh well, persnoal opinion!

I don't actually find Dwarves anything like as annoying as Elves but yeah, I don't generally go for that type of fantasy. I can't think of anything with the "trope" fantasy races in it except LOTR that I actually liked, so these days I tend not to read that sort of thing at all.

But still, Elf genocide - I like it!

 

[Luya Sevrein]

I don't actually find Dwarves anything like as annoying as Elves but yeah, I don't generally go for that type of fantasy. I can't think of anything with the "trope" fantasy races in it except LOTR that I actually liked, so these days I tend not to read that sort of thing at all.

But still, Elf genocide - I like it!

I think Dragon Age had a pretty good take on it, especailly Elves. They were on of the less-annoying species of Elf and I could stand them. xD But, they moved into games, so, I guess that doesn't count wholey as books?

I'm actually looking for some that have done it well, and if not, oh well, hope to be one of the few who doesn't mess it up. XD

 

[PeteMC]

I'm probably not the best person to help with this, but I think the worst writing sin with the trope races is to make them cardboard cutout characters without any personality.

Obviously that's a writing sin in general, but I've read books where the human characters were actually fairly well developed and yet the Dwarfs were still all bearded, mead-guzzling, armour-making, mountain-dwelling, axe-wielding singers of songs about gold. Has there never been a Dwarven farmer in Fantasyland? Or a carpenter? What to they eat, and sit on? *

And don't get me started on Elves...




* To be fair there probably has, just not in anything I've ever read that I can think of!

 

[Luya Sevrein]

I'm probably not the best person to help with this, but I think the worst writing sin with the trope races is to make them cardboard cutout characters without any personality.

Obviously that's a writing sin in general, but I've read books where the human characters were actually fairly well developed and yet the Dwarfs were still all bearded, mead-guzzling, armour-making, mountain-dwelling, axe-wielding singers of songs about gold. Has there never been a Dwarven farmer in Fantasyland? Or a carpenter? What to they eat, and sit on? *

And don't get me started on Elves...




* To be fair there probably has, just not in anything I've ever read that I can think of!

Yes, that's what I mean!

I love to develope character, so I'd find it really... well, insulting to dwarves. xD But to my readers, insulting, sure.

But then I don't want to just make them so they have no culture at all, and could basically have been humans or what's the point? xD To be honest - using a trope race is dangerous enough, they'll always be someone who'll say I did too much or too little anyway, but I want to be happy with them myself.

Ouch... Elves, know what you mean. I mean, I still have to develope a culture for them to have had so I know myself their history. Even that is upsetting. XD

 

[PeteMC]

Ouch... Elves, know what you mean. I mean, I still have to develope a culture for them to have had so I know myself their history. Even that is upsetting. XD

Please don't make them live in the woods and all be amazing archers. Please, just... don't.

You could do worse than read this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G1...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[kmtolan]

Elves, fae, orcs, dwarves, dragons, and sparkling vampires.

While there is absolutely no hope for the latter malady, you might be able to pull off most of the remaining races (maybe not orcs) by departing as far as you can from the stereotypes. And I mean as FAR as you can.

A resounding "yes" to the character depth - it will be your characters and a highly untraveled story that can allow some readers to forgive your use of such stock fantasy items.

Personally, I dare you to try and write something without anything not already included with World of Warcraft.

Yeah, I even see the "E" word and I'm high-tailing it to the next book.

Kerry disclaimer - plays WoW

 

[Luya Sevrein]

Thank you lots and lots and lots! That's really helpful. REALLY, I mean, I've read a little of that book just then. Alaric Hall is interesting. x)

I am going to try and make them as far from cliches as I possibly can while not taking the race and claiming it to be my own while punching it in the face until it cowers and pouring glitter over it. >D

 

[Lucanus]

Elves? Really? Yuck. It's a shame because I used to love playing elves when I was a D&D guy in high school and I love Tolkein's elves but just about every other time I see an elf I roll my eyes with the sole exception of the original Dragon Lance Books. Those were okay for some reason. Maybe it was that I was a teenager when I read them but they struck me as being less cardboard than other depictions. Killing them all off is a nice twist though. Maybe there are one or two left that are royally pissed and really BA. (The elves I played usually were dark and twisted and doing their best to get back in with the others of their race.) I've always liked gnomes. They're like little fantasy MacGyvers making all sorts of cool gadgets that sometimes go haywire to comedic or disastrous effect. Maybe add one or two of those guys.

 

[hippokrene]

Hey guys,

Has anyone ever worked with these races or does anyone have any strong thoughts on the matter?

Last night, a plot bunny scurried through my head, and I came up with an idea for a story with an elven main character.

I don't worry about 'stereotypes' when it comes to fantasy races. In my opinion, if you can't write a non-stereotypical elf then you probably can't write a non-stereotypical human either. Stereotypes only happen when your characters are shallow.

Why are you writing a story about traditional fantasy races though? It seems you dislike them.

I mean, you killed off elves because you don't want them in your story. I'd have just not had them in the story to begin with.

As for why I like non-humans, Nagel, in What is it like to be a bat?, suggests that consciousness is primarily the subjective experience of a being arising from what type of being it is and that a different type of being would naturally have a different type of consciousness. He concluded that a human could never know or understand a consciousness other than its own, and so all we could do is impose our consciousness on other beings. One aspect of SF I like is the idea of exploring consciousness other than that of humanity.

 

[Luya Sevrein]

Last night, a plot bunny scurried through my head, and I came up with an idea for a story with an elven main character.

I don't worry about 'stereotypes' when it comes to fantasy races. In my opinion, if you can't write a non-stereotypical elf then you probably can't write a non-stereotypical human either. Stereotypes only happen when your characters are shallow.

Why are you writing a story about traditional fantasy races though? It seems you dislike them.

I mean, you killed off elves because you don't want them in your story. I'd have just not had them in the story to begin with.

As for why I like non-humans, Nagel, in What is it like to be a bat?, suggests that consciousness is primarily the subjective experience of a being arising from what type of being it is and that a different type of being would naturally have a different type of consciousness. He concluded that a human could never know or understand a consciousness other than its own, and so all we could do is impose our consciousness on other beings. One aspect of SF I like is the idea of exploring consciousness other than that of humanity.

I only dislike Elves, well, not so much dislike as feel nothing for. However, their erradication fit well with my plot, so it worked.

I believe stereotypes are there for a reason. It's like taking away someone's culture to say not to have them at all. A fantasy species is like a national race in the real world. Each individual will be unique though there will be a current flowing through them that binds them, and their physical bodies will have adapted to climate and pressures.

 

[KatG]

Making vampires sparkle in the daylight happened to be original.

Why did you decide you wanted to write about dwarves, Luya? What attracted you to them? (And giants, etc.)

 

[Luya Sevrein]

XD True.

Well, the story I have been working on is largely Human-focussed, all though it has a few races which I have created. It is highly realistic, and kind of based off Martin's style, so I've put so much into the mechanics, politics, intrigue, etc, that I'm missing the whimsical side of things. Don't get me wrong, I love my near-steampunk story. XD And have tried to weave in all elements, buttt... I just want something different for a while.

The world of this story is still ni the heights of fantasy, with dragons, unicorns, myths and Legends still walking around and Mages hired by Courts. Okay, I plan to turn all of it on its head, but... xD

 

[ElinIsabel]

I don't think you need to go as far as possible away from the tropes to make it good; I would do a lot of research into the source material for elves, dwarves, dragons, etc (Scandinavian and Celtic myth, etc) and then write something that can fit into the broader tradition while being uniquely yours.

I think some more traditional fantasy would be kind of refreshingly cool. What is old is new again.

 

[KatG]

XD True.

Well, the story I have been working on is largely Human-focussed, all though it has a few races which I have created. It is highly realistic, and kind of based off Martin's style, so I've put so much into the mechanics, politics, intrigue, etc, that I'm missing the whimsical side of things. Don't get me wrong, I love my near-steampunk story. XD And have tried to weave in all elements, buttt... I just want something different for a while.

The world of this story is still ni the heights of fantasy, with dragons, unicorns, myths and Legends still walking around and Mages hired by Courts. Okay, I plan to turn all of it on its head, but... xD

Still not telling me why you wanted to have dwarves in the story. What are the dwarves for specifically?

 

[PeteMC]

A fantasy species is like a national race in the real world.

Ouch! Now, sorry, but this idea is exactly why I don't like Elves & Dwarfs etc in fiction, and I think it's a big part of the reason why they so often end up with all those wallbanger cliches.

We're human. Indian, European, Chinese, whatever we may be, we are races of human. An Elf might as well be a cat. It's not quite a Martian, as it at least evolved and lives in the same habitat as the humans, but human it ain't. It's not a different race, it's a different species.

Hippokrene got it bang on in a previous post: "consciousness is primarily the subjective experience of a being arising from what type of being it is and that a different type of being would naturally have a different type of consciousness" - which is a much cleverer way of saying what I just said.

Now, leaving out the unlikelihood of a world in which there are two or more dominant species and they haven't already fought endless wars until only one of them is left (this is fantasy after all), you have two (or more) sentient, civilized species, not races, competing for food, resources and territory. What are their chances of really understanding each other's motivations, thought processes, world view, religious ideas? Considering the endless wars these things have caused in our own history, where we at least are all the same species, I'm guessing Human-Elf (or whatever) relations are ever more difficult.

Which, if it's done well, could actually make for a great story. For whatever reason, I've never seen it done well (yes I know LOTR gets away with it, but that's more like reading the mythic legends than a novel anyway) but I wish you the very best of luck!

 

[Luya Sevrein]

The reason I want to use Dwarves is because I want to take on one of the 'trope' races, or at least, a race I did not create. I want to research their Legends and how they have been used up until now in different kinds of fantasy and popular culture, and interprit them in my own, give them an interaction with other races and see how far I can push my characters out of their culture, etc. It just so happens that dwarves are my favourite at the moment, I have been heavily inspired by their portrail in Dragon Age, for a start, and want to try to pull them away from the ale-guzzling, underground cretins they are usually shown as. I'm also interested ni the whole Norse myth of Dwarves being dark elves, or at least, the elves that dwelled on Earth as apose to Light Elves.

But anyways - on what you're saying, Pete, I only meant it as an analogy so perhaps it was a poor one. I was trying to say that you can take a races culture away from it completely, you just have to make a unique culture founded in legend and bring it to their character without overtaking their character. Because culture is a part of character development.

 

[KatG]

The reason I want to use Dwarves is because I want to take on one of the 'trope' races, or at least, a race I did not create. I want to research their Legends and how they have been used up until now in different kinds of fantasy and popular culture, and interprit them in my own, give them an interaction with other races and see how far I can push my characters out of their culture, etc. It just so happens that dwarves are my favourite at the moment, I have been heavily inspired by their portrail in Dragon Age, for a start, and want to try to pull them away from the ale-guzzling, underground cretins they are usually shown as. I'm also interested ni the whole Norse myth of Dwarves being dark elves, or at least, the elves that dwelled on Earth as apose to Light Elves.

Yeah, worry less about what other people have and have not done with dwarves, would be my suggestion. (And what they've done with dwarves is considerably more varied than you're claiming.) Dwarves are your tool. They appeal to you in some way. They appeal to you as a dark force -- malevolent? What do they want? What's important to them? How are they going to serve your story? Are you going to replicate Norse myth or are you going to mix it with other myth? How do dwarves see? What do they eat? Reproduce?

What sort of character do you need among the dwarves? Are they just there to be monsters, opponents? Or will they have a more detailed role, will we go inside any of their pov's? Figure out what you need them for, and that will help you figure out what they are going to be.