Typical, old characters vs. new, unseen and unknown in the fantasy, sci-fy genres.

I do the same in the sense that I write stories that interest me about characters that interest me. The difference is that original characters interest me and stock characters make me yawn. I'd much rather be doing something new than just spinning in circles. And I hope you learned a valuable lesson from the essay by Immanuel Kant.

Ramirez, I am sure if you look hard enough you will find that every character you come up with, thinking it is original, has a near doppleganger in some story somewhere. It is a fact. It is, as Jon said, every character is stock at some level.
 
Ramirez, I am sure if you look hard enough you will find that every character you come up with, thinking it is original, has a near doppleganger in some story somewhere. It is a fact. It is, as Jon said, every character is stock at some level.

They can be related to Jung's archetypes. Some characters would be considered guardians, some tricksters, etc. Yet, in any context they are highly unique and far separated from the archetypes. It's kind of like the music that I make. You can relate it to funk, jazz, or hip hop, but it cannot be defined as specifically one or the other because it is a separate entity.

A lot of it has to do with confidence and ambition. Some artists like to copy and imitate because that's all they know and that's what they want to do, they don't have enough confidence or ambition to do otherwise. To do otherwise would put them in a whole new realm where they have no grip on where they are and where they are going, since nobody has done it before. This happens a lot in sci-fi and fantasy. Artists see or read something they very much like and they want to do that, to be that, to recreate it while still telling themselves that it's different. More ambitious artists see these things and are influenced, but strive to do something completely different. The ambitious artist does not only want to progress the genre, but they want to create a new one. The ambitious artist does not want to follow archetypes, but instead create new ones. Man had to create everything that exists, all of the archetypes included, and so the possibility of creating that which is new is inherent.

I say all of this not to be smug or conceited, not to flaunt any of my own ability, but instead to promote free thinking. Think of it like this. Many of you can say "The thought of doing anything original is preposterous because it's all been done before." They have fooled themselves into believing this. Did the people who created that which was done before have this mindset? They didn't, because they strove to do something new. What was jazz music before jazz music existed? Had it been done before? No, it hadn't. All artists must see the vastness of this universe and it's room for expansion. It hasn't all been done before. And if one thinks this way, they will never change anything. One with this train of thought can be compared to lovers underneath the sheets. It's all great, it's all been done before, but take a moment to pull the sheets away and feel that cool, refreshing air. I say this for your own good, but argue as you will about your desire for complacency. Do you desire it because there are truly no other possibilities, or do you desire it as an excuse for not creating new possibilities?
 
They can be related to Jung's archetypes. Some characters would be considered guardians, some tricksters, etc. Yet, in any context they are highly unique and far separated from the archetypes. It's kind of like the music that I make. You can relate it to funk, jazz, or hip hop, but it cannot be defined as specifically one or the other because it is a separate entity.

A lot of it has to do with confidence and ambition. Some artists like to copy and imitate because that's all they know and that's what they want to do, they don't have enough confidence or ambition to do otherwise. To do otherwise would put them in a whole new realm where they have no grip on where they are and where they are going, since nobody has done it before. This happens a lot in sci-fi and fantasy. Artists see or read something they very much like and they want to do that, to be that, to recreate it while still telling themselves that it's different. More ambitious artists see these things and are influenced, but strive to do something completely different. The ambitious artist does not only want to progress the genre, but they want to create a new one. The ambitious artist does not want to follow archetypes, but instead create new ones. Man had to create everything that exists, all of the archetypes included, and so the possibility of creating that which is new is inherent.

I say all of this not to be smug or conceited, not to flaunt any of my own ability, but instead to promote free thinking. Think of it like this. Many of you can say "The thought of doing anything original is preposterous because it's all been done before." They have fooled themselves into believing this. Did the people who created that which was done before have this mindset? They didn't, because they strove to do something new. What was jazz music before jazz music existed? Had it been done before? No, it hadn't. All artists must see the vastness of this universe and it's room for expansion. It hasn't all been done before. And if one thinks this way, they will never change anything. One with this train of thought can be compared to lovers underneath the sheets. It's all great, it's all been done before, but take a moment to pull the sheets away and feel that cool, refreshing air. I say this for your own good, but argue as you will about your desire for complacency. Do you desire it because there are truly no other possibilities, or do you desire it as an excuse for not creating new possibilities?

Oh dear, sorry, but I nearly burst out laughing, I was doing and listening to people talk just like you about ten or more years before you were born.

Each generation thinks they are the ones that discovered, "the truth", of the creative process....

Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, dear boy.....
 
Oh dear, sorry, but I nearly burst out laughing, I was doing and listening to people talk just like you about ten or more years before you were born.

Each generation thinks they are the ones that discovered, "the truth", of the creative process....

Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, dear boy.....

It seems that you are merely arguing with me, as your apparent lack of respect shows. Your words read as angry and confrontational, very stubborn like an old man trying to tell his child why voting doesn't matter because he tried it before and his candidate didn't win. It would be more productive for you to poke holes through my logic to prove your point, but instead you'd rather make fun of me. I may be young, but this does not mean my advice should be disregarded simply because you are older than I. It would do you good to read my advice with an objective eye as you may learn something.
 
It seems that you are merely arguing with me, as your apparent lack of respect shows. Your words read as angry and confrontational, very stubborn like an old man trying to tell his child why voting doesn't matter because he tried it before and his candidate didn't win. It would be more productive for you to poke holes through my logic to prove your point, but instead you'd rather make fun of me. I may be young, but this does not mean my advice should be disregarded simply because you are older than I. It would do you good to read my advice with an objective eye as you may learn something.

I was not showing a lack of respect, but just remarking on how each generation, mine included, believe they have found the keys to the universe, when actually the door had been opened a few thousand years before.

I am not a man.

And your age has nothing to do with my remarks, I dislike folks lecturing others no matter what their age. (I have a lot of respect for young people on this forum and others, and count them as good friends)

Discuss, yes, share your opinion, yes. Talk down to people and demonstrate a reluctance to accept that others might know more than you is something I do not think is a good approach to life be the person 20 or 80....

I am plus 50 and still learning, the moment I stop learning and enjoying life I might as well pop my clogs.
 
It would do you good to read my advice with an objective eye as you may learn something.

I've learned that Ramirez makes friends wherever he goes.
You should write a book on the subject.:D
Jims
 
I was not showing a lack of respect, but just remarking on how each generation, mine included, believe they have found the keys to the universe, when actually the door had been opened a few thousand years before.

I am not a man.

And your age has nothing to do with my remarks, I dislike folks lecturing others no matter what their age. (I have a lot of respect for young people on this forum and others, and count them as good friends)

Discuss, yes, share your opinion, yes. Talk down to people and demonstrate a reluctance to accept that others might know more than you is something I do not think is a good approach to life be the person 20 or 80....

I am plus 50 and still learning, the moment I stop learning and enjoying life I might as well pop my clogs.

Understandable. I pay due respect to my elders and I can respect a woman such as yourself. I feel like we have both benefited from this conversation.

I've learned that Ramirez makes friends wherever he goes.
You should write a book on the subject.:D
Jims

I am not on this forum to make friends. I connect with my friends in the real world. This forum is a place where I can share my ideas and debate with the goal of further reinforcing and/or changing my ideas.
 
Everyone participating in this thread needs to now return to the topic or I will have to close the thread until calmer heads can prevail. Ramirez, I have PM'd you. As I've explained there, this is not a debating site.
 
I like what someone said about all characters being stock, relatively speaking. I will take Conan over many "new" characters. If we suppose that all characters in stories(including fantastical beings) are written from the perspective of a human, then all of them are just variations on the human theme.
I will use Anne Rice as an example, I thought she started kind of cool, but then wanted to change things. All of a sudden, these immortal beings are walking around with daddy issues and un fulfilled homo erotic urges, cry babying all the time. Phhhhbbbbttt. I will take a raggedy, old school stalker of virgins throats over that new wave tripe. But it is not new, Wilde did it(sort of) and probably lots more.
There is nothing new under the sun. Just variations on a theme.
 
My next work is about characters so original, I have to invent new words to describe them. In fact I might have to invent a whole new part of speech! I'll call it the prepoadjectiverb.

Quite seriously, though, writing "new" characters can be a bit like creating abstract art. You intend it to look like nothing at all, and then everyone who sees your canvas goes "Oh! A sail boat!"
 
My next work is about characters so original, I have to invent new words to describe them. In fact I might have to invent a whole new part of speech! I'll call it the prepoadjectiverb.

Quite seriously, though, writing "new" characters can be a bit like creating abstract art. You intend it to look like nothing at all, and then everyone who sees your canvas goes "Oh! A sail boat!"

Okay, you are the exception to the rule then. Aside from YOU, there is nothing new under the sun!
 
**notices Kat's post**
*deletes reply*

Teach me to respond to someone before reading the entire thread.
 
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Old Recipe, New Life

The art of writing stories itself still takes it's greatest flight in the archaic and mundane pages of analog books.

Sure, there are new methods of media now, and sure digital media has introduced stunning visuals, alluring marketing, and even interactivity (see Video Games), but many would argue that nothing can bump the book from its pedestal, it's centuries old throne. Of this throne,there is nothing new. But we remix the recipe over and over again and from this process we get good eggs and bad eggs, but certainly nothing to discount it in entirety.
 

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