Williams - MS&T

[Evil Agent]

I'm sure there are lots of threads on this series already.. I'll look into it.
But I just wanted to post my own thoughts on it.

I'm about 200 pages into part 1 of to Green Angel Tower. That's the funniest thing about this series. It seems to me like it's a Quadrilogy, but apparently it's technically still a trilogy. It's just that the last book, To Green Angel Tower, is published as 2 paperbacks, EACH OF WHICH IS THICKER THAN EITHER OF THE FIRST TWO NOVELS IN THE SERIES! I find that kind of funny. Was it for marketing, or was it truly as the note in the book says...that the publishers were committed to providing a "quality product"?

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked... I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the first two novels... but I didn't find myself THAT sucked in... until now! As I said, I'm about 200 pages in to the first half of the "last book", and it's really getting good! It seems now is the time when the plotlines are just starting to come together, and the characters are finally making cool decisions, and doing some wicked stuff.

Have many others read this, and what do you think in general? One friend of mine won't touch it because it looks "too cliche" or like something he's "read before"... I can see that, it's nothing groundbreakingly original... but it's much better than other similar epics that are way too bland/unoriginal for me, like Shanarrah or even Riftwar (although I didn't dislike Riftwar that much, it just wasn't spectacular).

 

[ndhaon91]

is that the series that starts with Dragonbone Chair? i got about halfway through that book before i finally gave up. it just didn't do anything for me. it wasn't so much that the characters were cliche (although they were) as much as it was that I simply did care about them emotionally. i think even cliche characters can pull you in when written well (e.g. Rand/Richard). I was disappointed, too, because i've heard so much about tad williams.

 

[ObtusePunubiris]

I read MS&T quite a while back, and I remember enjoying it very much. You're right, Evil, when you say there is nothing terribly original about the story, but Williams succeeds in putting his own spin on it.

BTW, ndhaon91, if I recall correctly, this story does take a little while to really get going. You might want to give these books a second chance someday.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

I think I actually enjoyed the Dragonbone Chair the most out of the series. I don't want to put a dampner on your spirits Evil Agent, but I was really disappointed by the ending. I won't say anything more as I don't want to spoil anything.

 

[Richardb]

Maybe not the most original, but a nice spin overall, and a great read. Yes, it takes several hundred pages to really get into the story in the first book, but what I found Williams did with this work (and has not replicated since) is capture true emotions around his characters as you get into it. He really draws you in. This series is a top 5 certainly for all time favorites with me.

 

[Archmage]

I'm sure there are lots of threads on this series already.. I'll look into it.
But I just wanted to post my own thoughts on it.

I'm about 200 pages into part 1 of to Green Angel Tower. That's the funniest thing about this series. It seems to me like it's a Quadrilogy, but apparently it's technically still a trilogy. It's just that the last book, To Green Angel Tower, is published as 2 paperbacks, EACH OF WHICH IS THICKER THAN EITHER OF THE FIRST TWO NOVELS IN THE SERIES! I find that kind of funny. Was it for marketing, or was it truly as the note in the book says...that the publishers were committed to providing a "quality product"?

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked... I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the first two novels... but I didn't find myself THAT sucked in... until now! As I said, I'm about 200 pages in to the first half of the "last book", and it's really getting good! It seems now is the time when the plotlines are just starting to come together, and the characters are finally making cool decisions, and doing some wicked stuff.

Have many others read this, and what do you think in general? One friend of mine won't touch it because it looks "too cliche" or like something he's "read before"... I can see that, it's nothing groundbreakingly original... but it's much better than other similar epics that are way too bland/unoriginal for me, like Shanarrah or even Riftwar (although I didn't dislike Riftwar that much, it just wasn't spectacular).

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn is one of my all time favorite works of Epic Fantasy. It is marvelously written and constructed. The story, world and culture building, plot and character development were all outstanding. Tad Williams in an extremely talented author. I also recommend his stand alone novel...The War of the Flowers. I found it to be an excellent novel and felt that Williams was able to create an 'Epic' story within only one book. I find that to be impressive given all the facets that go into creating a sense of the epic, or grandness within a story.

 

[Rob B]

Here is some of what I've said about Williams in other posts. MS&T is my favore Epic Fantasy from the past 14-20 years. I re-read it every other year or so.

I have read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn twice. Yes Williams is a bit verbose and this saga is not exactly the fastest in terms of pacing. However, Williams goes to great lengths to immerse you in the world in which you are reading about. There are many details, but they only go to further Osten Ard as a fully realized world.

Also, Simon seems a bit of a dotard at the beginning, but Simon's growth as a character throughout the three books is a joy to read as he and we the reader explore Osten Ard in all its subtle magics and wondrous glories.

Bardos:

MS&T is one of my favorites so just remember that as you read what I say. I've read the series twice and will likely read it again over the summer....

Yes Tad does introduce more viewpoints in the later books, not to the extent that Martin does, but with the Epic quality of the story, more characters are introduced. But, one of the main things to remember is that Simon IS the protagonist. He grows from a boy to a man in the course of these books, at times he is a bit of a moon-calf, but Williams charting of this growth is wonderful. We primarily see the world, the action, the war, the battles, the victories, the deaths, the highest honor of humaity, the darkest depths the soul can plunge to in desperation, through his eyes. The story is his and it is the story of great change in Osten Ard.

Like many Epic stories, there are a number of people involved, as the plot builds up and the tension mounts, more characters are introduced that become a vital part of the narrative.

I enjoy the ""unattached-boy-saving-the-world-stories" but they CAN get tiresome, so I understand your qualms. In the case of Williams, he uses this as his framework. Through the discourse of the novel, there are elements introduced that may on the surface seem typical of the genre, but are somewhat of a twist as well.

Things Happen, Good Things Happen.

Mithf--

I liked MS&T more than Farseer. I think Osten Ard is a bit more fully developed as well as the surrounding cast.

I liked Fitz a little bit more than Simon though. Simon starts out as a "moon calf" but the way Williams shows his growth by trilogy's end is magnificent.

There may be a reason why the three title swords of the trilogy are similar to Moorcock's Black Blades, Tad cites Moorcock as one of his primary influences and favorite writers--he contributed the Multi-author anthology about Elric and on all the US Eternal Champion books, a blurb by Tad Williams is prominently featured on the back cover.

MS&T is leaps and bounds better and more complex, IMHO than Feist's Midkemia books. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the first few Midkemia books, but they are a bit of Tolkien-lite/D&D and more cliched than MS&T. Again, I had fun with the Feist books, but MS&T is something to itself and in my mind, can be compared truthfully to Lord of the Rings in the same breath as Donaldson.

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was originally published as 3 Hardcovers:
The Dragonbone Chair
Stone of Farewell
To Green Angel Tower

Upon paperback publication, tGAt was so large as a hardcover (1023 pages with pretty small type) Tad and the publisher decided rather than publish one really fat paperback with thin, not so good quality paper and very small type, they would rather publish two equal length paperbacks standard good quality paper and normal sized text.

That said, MS&T is probably my favorite Epic/High Fantasy series. Tad created probably on of, if not THE most rich and living fantasy world, people with believable characters, great battle fight/scenes, enough magic to still seem magical without going overboard.

 

[Archmage]

Here is some of what I've said about Williams in other posts. MS&T is my favore Epic Fantasy from the past 14-20 years. I re-read it every other year or so.

Good stuff Fitz ! MS&T is an amazing piece of work. It will always be one of my favorite sagas of all time.

 

[ndhaon91]

ah, hells bells... looks like i'm going to have to take another shot at it...

 

[Rob B]

ah, hells bells... looks like i'm going to have to take another shot at it...

It is well worth it. Two authors I initially attempted and didn't enjoy were Wolfe and Moorcock, both are now two of my favorite authors.

 

[JRMurdock]

I'm about 100 pages from the end pf Part 1 of To Green Angle Tower. Alas, I stopped reading it about 2 months ago. I read several books between Dragonbone Chair and the Farewell Stone. It's beautifully written, but painfully slowly paced. He does a great job building the world, and defining ever blade of grass in it. I'm not complaining. I will get back to it and finish, but I need to read some brain candy first. I've read all the Hitchhiker's books (I love Adams) and I'm reading I, Robot and Some Salvatore right now. I just finished The Gunslinger on Audio. All these books are so extremely different from one another that I find myself wanting to finish them so I can get back to Tad.

and yes ndhaon91, persevere. It's worth it. Just lengthy.

 

[Evil Agent]

Thanks guys! Those were some insightful comments, especially from Fitz.

I LOVE Hobb, and became a HUGE fan of Farseer when I read it last year... I even have a cat named Fitz. Despite the fact that Hobb's world is slightly less detailed and realized, I still like the emotional vein of the story more.

I think maybe what it is that makes Hobb and Williams and Tolkien and others special, is that their writing is HONEST. I feel that way about certain music groups too. When the product (music/books) seems fake, or like it's trying too hard to be something, I lose interest. i.e. bands like Limp Bizkit, that are trying way too hard, or authors like Goodkind or Brooks who seem (to me) like they're somehow trying to swindle/scam me, I can't explain what it is.

But something about Williams, and Simon, and Miriamele, and Josua, and even Guthwulf, they just seem like honestly written characters. There's no agenda behind the writing. It's just a well written story, at times uplifting and at others it's tragic. But it seems like Williams was writing with good intentions.

 

[Swift]

is that the series that starts with Dragonbone Chair? i got about halfway through that book before i finally gave up. it just didn't do anything for me. it wasn't so much that the characters were cliche (although they were) as much as it was that I simply did care about them emotionally. i think even cliche characters can pull you in when written well (e.g. Rand/Richard). I was disappointed, too, because i've heard so much about tad williams.

Totally agree. Couldnt get more then couple hundred pages into it

 

[Archmage]

I think maybe what it is that makes Hobb and Williams and Tolkien and others special, is that their writing is HONEST. I feel that way about certain music groups too. When the product (music/books) seems fake, or like it's trying too hard to be something, I lose interest. i.e. bands like Limp Bizkit, that are trying way too hard, or authors like Goodkind or Brooks who seem (to me) like they're somehow trying to swindle/scam me, I can't explain what it is.

I completely understand where you are coming from with that statement. Limp Bisquick...aka....The pancake kings...were an execellent example !

 

[KatG]

I'm about 200 pages into part 1 of to Green Angel Tower. That's the funniest thing about this series. It seems to me like it's a Quadrilogy, but apparently it's technically still a trilogy. It's just that the last book, To Green Angel Tower, is published as 2 paperbacks, EACH OF WHICH IS THICKER THAN EITHER OF THE FIRST TWO NOVELS IN THE SERIES! I find that kind of funny. Was it for marketing, or was it truly as the note in the book says...that the publishers were committed to providing a "quality product"?

Have many others read this, and what do you think in general? One friend of mine won't touch it because it looks "too cliche" or like something he's "read before"... I can see that, it's nothing groundbreakingly original... but it's much better than other similar epics that are way too bland/unoriginal for me, like Shanarrah or even Riftwar (although I didn't dislike Riftwar that much, it just wasn't spectacular).

According to my memory, "To Green Angel Tower" was put out as one book in hardcover, but with two different cover treatments. They may have eventually decided to split the book in two for the paperback edition. So originally, it was a trilogy and Williams wrote it that way.

I enjoyed MST because it did go some places many other fantasies did not and because it maybe took a closer look at the process of a young boy becoming an embittered hero in the face of horror than most such fantasies attempt. I also liked the plot of the two royal brothers, which while not new in concept, I thought was well done.

"The War of the Flowers" I found disappointing, though, I'm sorry to say. It had some good stuff within it, but structurally and in terms of character development, I found it weak and uneven, and quite often frustrating. Every time he got into something interesting, it seemed that he veered away from it, and he appeared to have dummed down his characters to a point beyond what I could find credible. But that's just my reading of it. Your mileage may vary.

I would instead probably say that his virtual reality sf series, "Otherworld," is better. But I have only read the first book in that series.

 

[Archmage]

According to my memory, "To Green Angel Tower" was put out as one book in hardcover, but with two different cover treatments. They may have eventually decided to split the book in two for the paperback edition. So originally, it was a trilogy and Williams wrote it that way.

I enjoyed MST because it did go some places many other fantasies did not and because it maybe took a closer look at the process of a young boy becoming an embittered hero in the face of horror than most such fantasies attempt. I also liked the plot of the two royal brothers, which while not new in concept, I thought was well done.

"The War of the Flowers" I found disappointing, though, I'm sorry to say. It had some good stuff within it, but structurally and in terms of character development, I found it weak and uneven, and quite often frustrating. Every time he got into something interesting, it seemed that he veered away from it, and he appeared to have dummed down his characters to a point beyond what I could find credible. But that's just my reading of it. Your mileage may vary.

I would instead probably say that his virtual reality sf series, "Otherworld," is better. But I have only read the first book in that series.

Obviously we disagree on "The War of the Flowers". I felt sort of the opposite with the main character, Theo. I think he often did express a sense of confusion and dumbfoundedness. But that lends to the 'believability' of the story in a literary sense. Think about it, you are going along, living your life...and all the sudden you are tossed headfirst into this entire new world, which its very existance goes against every concept you thought possible. That would put anyone in a bit of a stupor. I think, similiar in the way we saw the growth of Simon in MS&T, we saw the growth of Theo. Theo was not a hero type of character. He was sort of forced into a reality he wanted no part of, and didn't understand. And the process of seeing him grow as a person, become more than he was, I found to be wonderfully developed and written by Williams. But, as you said, that is only my opinion. No one will ever agree on every book

As for "Otherworld", I have no doubt that it is probably an outstanding piece of work. Everything I have read about it has been extremely positive. I myself do not find it interesting as Sci Fi, when it comes to casual reading, just doesn't interest me much. But for anyone who does enjoy reading Sci Fi, I am sure "Otherworld" would be a great read.

Peace

 

[Quagmire]

As for "Otherworld", I have no doubt that it is probably an outstanding piece of work. Everything I have read about it has been extremely positive. I myself do not find it interesting as Sci Fi, when it comes to casual reading, just doesn't interest me much. But for anyone who does enjoy reading Sci Fi, I am sure "Otherworld" would be a great read.

Actually, Otherland feels a lot more like fantasy. Plus Williams has created the most fascinating worlds in the VR environment.

 

[Priestvyrce]

Actually, Otherland feels a lot more like fantasy. Plus Williams has created the most fascinating worlds in the VR environment.

His mixture of historical places and fantasy settings is fantastic. You travel through Lewis Carroll's Alice In Wonderland and Burroughs John Carter of Mars to re-enacting the Trojan War. Williams' VR worlds are the most fun about the series.

 

[Miriamele]

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is in my top five favourite reads of all time. It is very long, but I was very glad I slogged through the slow parts because the exciting, suspenseful and emotional parts make up for it. I absolutely loved the sense of adventure in the books as Simon found himself treading all parts of Osten Ard from the northernmost mountains to the deep and secret places of the earth.

Much of the setting and material in the book is cliched but I've never minded that as long as the author takes a fresh twist on it, which I feel Williams did.

I totally agree with Evil Agent about the books being honest. The characters seemed very real and so did their reactions to events. One particular part I felt was honestly written was Simon's first taste of full-blown battle. Even after everything he had been through he wasn't ready to for the feeling of his own sword slicing through another man's flesh, and if I remember correctly it made him quite ill physically. The horror of battle as well as the glory of it is something I feel many authors don't touch on fully.

And so many of the characters were very likeable to me, especially Binabik and Isgrimnur.

I will reread the books someday but right now there's no point as I can still remember everything that happens quite clearly.

Good stuff.

 

[Memnoch]

Well, I've bought Book 1 of the MS&T series ("The Dragonbone Chair") as well as Book 1 of the OTHERLAND series ("City of Golden Shadow") and am not quite sure what to start first. This is my first venture into Tad Williams books, coming off GRRM, Erikson and Sara Douglass over the past year. I'd heard a lot about Williams and so decided to check him out. Couldn't decide between either series, so I bought both. Which one is the better one to start? I'd rather start with the lesser-quality one and work my way up, rather than start high with one and then be brought down by the other, if you know what I mean...though if both series are equally as good as the other it would be even better!