Williams - MS&T

[Rob B]

As for "Otherworld", I have no doubt that it is probably an outstanding piece of work. Everything I have read about it has been extremely positive. I myself do not find it interesting as Sci Fi, when it comes to casual reading, just doesn't interest me much. But for anyone who does enjoy reading Sci Fi, I am sure "Otherworld" would be a great read.

Peace

Again, Arch, this is a case of where you less than open-minded-ness will prevent you from enjoying a truly stellar work. As Quagmire states, Otherland really does work better as a fantasy. It hs the quest aspect of Fantasy, the wonderous environs of Fantasy, it IS Fantasy. Hell, the recent Legends II Fantasy anthology contains a short novel from the Otherland saga.

 

[Archmage]

Again, Arch, this is a case of where you less than open-minded-ness will prevent you from enjoying a truly stellar work. As Quagmire states, Otherland really does work better as a fantasy. It hs the quest aspect of Fantasy, the wonderous environs of Fantasy, it IS Fantasy. Hell, the recent Legends II Fantasy anthology contains a short novel from the Otherland saga.

Why the size 7 font Fitz ?? Why are you getting mad at me for not being interested in "Otherland". I have read reviews of it, have read the back cover of book one, so I understand the premise of the saga. Just isn't my cup of tea. But I never said one bad thing about it. In fact, it was quite the opposite, I was completely complimentary in my statement about the saga. So why ya getting upset my friend ??

Peace
Arch

 

[KatG]

Archmage -- Confusion would have been fine. What annoyed me is that Williams built up this really interesting character -- a working musician in his thirties who was looking at giving up his dreams, a lonely, drift along in life sort who was having to deal with adult realities of a fading career, an upset girlfriend and future fatherhood; and he took his time building that up, maybe too much time I think, bearing in mind that I liked the slow development in "Dragonbone Chair;" and then he plops the guy in fairyland and instead of simply being confused and concerned, he immediately starts acting like a clueless sixteen year old. Help, the cute elf girl likes me -- what do I do? Well, let's see, you're a musician and you've lived with a woman, one would expect you to know how to handle this situation, Theo. It was as if Theo got changed into Simon, a very different character, and for me, it didn't work. And I think that Williams made the plot mistake of trying to keep his good guy characters in the dark about villianous plotting to the point where they appeared so stupid you wanted to smack them. Readers would know that (SPOILER)

Theo is the half-elf baby right away, and I just didn't enjoy having to read several hundred pages waiting for the good guys to figure out all the plot twists that were already readily apparent to the readers. It's fine that you liked it -- Williams is a good writer -- but for me, "Flowers" felt sloppy and poorly constructed. It's not his best work, in my view.

Memnoch -- I'd suggest starting with "The Dragonbone Chair" first.

Otherland is unquestionably science fiction, but it is obviously not hard sf. Just like you would play a fantasy game on a computer, the main characters have to contend with and are mentally inside of a virtual reality universe, and while that universe is created by technology, it operates much like an Alice in Wonderland sort of fantasy set-up, including some characters who don't know that they are in a VR world. So there is much for fantasy fans to enjoy in it. But it is operating on multiple levels -- the real world outside the VR universe and the VR technology, which is futuristic, the various thriller plots, etc., whereas MST is more of a straight epic fantasy story. Personally, I think Otherland, though, does have some of the best characters Williams has come up with. I decided not to continue with the series because VR stories tend to drive me to distraction, but I may go back some time and read it.

And there is of course "Tailchaser's Song," which is very good, unless you don't like cats, in which case you probably don't want to read it. (Are we suppose to be having this conversation in a special Williams forum or something?)

 

[Archmage]

Archmage -- Confusion would have been fine. What annoyed me is that Williams built up this really interesting character -- a working musician in his thirties who was looking at giving up his dreams, a lonely, drift along in life sort who was having to deal with adult realities of a fading career, an upset girlfriend and future fatherhood; and he took his time building that up, maybe too much time I think, bearing in mind that I liked the slow development in "Dragonbone Chair;" and then he plops the guy in fairyland and instead of simply being confused and concerned, he immediately starts acting like a clueless sixteen year old. Help, the cute elf girl likes me -- what do I do? Well, let's see, you're a musician and you've lived with a woman, one would expect you to know how to handle this situation, Theo. It was as if Theo got changed into Simon, a very different character, and for me, it didn't work. And I think that Williams made the plot mistake of trying to keep his good guy characters in the dark about villianous plotting to the point where they appeared so stupid you wanted to smack them. Readers would know that (SPOILER)

Theo is the half-elf baby right away, and I just didn't enjoy having to read several hundred pages waiting for the good guys to figure out all the plot twists that were already readily apparent to the readers. It's fine that you liked it -- Williams is a good writer -- but for me, "Flowers" felt sloppy and poorly constructed. It's not his best work, in my view.

Memnoch -- I'd suggest starting with "The Dragonbone Chair" first.

Otherland is unquestionably science fiction, but it is obviously not hard sf. Just like you would play a fantasy game on a computer, the main characters have to contend with and are mentally inside of a virtual reality universe, and while that universe is created by technology, it operates much like an Alice in Wonderland sort of fantasy set-up, including some characters who don't know that they are in a VR world. So there is much for fantasy fans to enjoy in it. But it is operating on multiple levels -- the real world outside the VR universe and the VR technology, which is futuristic, the various thriller plots, etc., whereas MST is more of a straight epic fantasy story. Personally, I think Otherland, though, does have some of the best characters Williams has come up with. I decided not to continue with the series because VR stories tend to drive me to distraction, but I may go back some time and read it.

And there is of course "Tailchaser's Song," which is very good, unless you don't like cats, in which case you probably don't want to read it. (Are we suppose to be having this conversation in a special Williams forum or something?)

You description of Otherland reminds me of The Matrix to a degree. I loved the Matrix movies, but wouldn't enjoy reading them. The special effects are such a neccessary part to get the 'feel' of the story. Otherland would probably make a good movie from your description of it as well as the reviews I have read of it.

But all in all, I am not a big fan of books being made into movies. I would rather directors and script writers come up with something new, than redoing old movies, or making eight million comic book movies, or translating books to film.

Peace

 

[JRMurdock]

And there is of course "Tailchaser's Song," which is very good, unless you don't like cats, in which case you probably don't want to read it. (Are we suppose to be having this conversation in a special Williams forum or something?)

Tailchaser's Song is what got me into Williams. It was really well done. For me, the Dragonbone Chair drags along at a painfully slow pace. The rest of the series he does a great job 'world building' which many people like. Me, I like the meat and potatoes of a story. Keep the parsley (which Williams HEAPS on). In the end, still a good book and worth plodding through.

I don't think there is a 'special' Williams forum. Not sure if we want a forum for each author.

 

[Rob B]

Why the size 7 font Fitz ?? Why are you getting mad at me for not being interested in "Otherland". I have read reviews of it, have read the back cover of book one, so I understand the premise of the saga. Just isn't my cup of tea. But I never said one bad thing about it. In fact, it was quite the opposite, I was completely complimentary in my statement about the saga. So why ya getting upset my friend ??

Peace
Arch

1) I'm not getting upset with you. Just frustrated is all. As I said, again, you came across rather close-minded in your lack of wanting to read OTHERLAND (and any scifi in general).

2) Didn't realize you'd looked into the book.

3) Large Font - to show that it IS Fantasy.

 

[Ingen_Jegger]

I am surprised that nobody else has mentioned this yet:

There are some who say much of MS&T was written as a racial critiscm of Tolkien. So maybe you guys who think Tad Williams is cliche' should reconsider what his approach is?



I have both of the old hardcovers of To Green Angel Tower, Caliban's Hour and Child of an Ancient City (both of which are worthy of mention).

I agree that his MS&T works are slow moving, but I can remember crying like a little girl after I finished To Green Angel Tower when it first came out while I was in 7th grade. I just wanted to go through my life with one more page to read.

Best,
Joe

p.s. plus the Bunkkin, Huen and *ahem* Ingen Jegger are some of my favorite fantasy villians of all time, and, Williams was able to incorperate dragons into his works without going overboard on them - a skill that is only done elsewhere in Tolkien and Hobb's stuff.

 

[Eventine]

1) I'm not getting upset with you. Just frustrated is all. As I said, again, you came across rather close-minded in your lack of wanting to read OTHERLAND (and any scifi in general).

2) Didn't realize you'd looked into the book.

3) Large Font - to show that it IS Fantasy.

I think the main source of everyone's frustration with you Arch is that you're not even willing to try some books. If you'd at least agree to try Dune, Northern Lights/Golden Compass or City of Golden Shadow and then come back and say that series wasn't for you I wouldn't have a problem. My problem is that you're not even willing to give it a go.

Please - try something different. If you don't like it fair enough, but please give it a go.

 

[Ingen_Jegger]

I think the main source of everyone's frustration with you Arch is that you're not even willing to try some books. If you'd at least agree to try Dune, Northern Lights/Golden Compass or City of Golden Shadow and then come back and say that series wasn't for you I wouldn't have a problem. My problem is that you're not even willing to give it a go.

Please - try something different. If you don't like it fair enough, but please give it a go.

Why should that bother you guys? I don't care for SciFi at all either. It is the premise of technology and post-modernism that doesn't appeal to me. So what? I tried Dune, Hienlien (sp) etc. The closest I can come to it is the Coldfire Trilogy (exception). I think that the element of technology connects me to this technological age and therefore keeps me from making a clean escape into the book.

I think this is a Fantasy forum and if Arch only likes fantasy then he is in the right place.

Or maybe it is just the Tokaji talking...

Best,
Joe

 

[Richardb]

As much as I agree that MS&T is one of the top 5 of all time in fantasy, I actually did not like 'Flowers' nor the Otherland books. Bought and read them all, and simply did not like them. Flowers was, in my opinion, poorly concieved and lacked emotional commitment. I just could not care about Theo or any of the other characters. At no time in this work did I feel that wonderful sense of having my disbelief suspended. It was like watching a movie with bad special effects. As to otherland, I felt it well concieved and well written, just not an interesting story line to me. Some things click, and some don't, and it did not.

 

[Miriamele]

I agree with your assessment, Richard. Theo was a very bland and uncompelling character, and although I still enjoyed War of the Flowers more than other stuff I've read in the last couple years, I didn't love it and I won't read it again. (Too bad I bought the hardcover!)

As for Otherland, I liked it more than you did but I felt that it needed MAJOR editing. As well, there simply weren't as many likeable characters as there were in MS&T and so although it was an enjoyable and interesting series, it doesn't hold a candle to MS&T in my books. There were so many characters in the latter that I really cared about, too many to list.

 

[Archmage]

Why should that bother you guys? I don't care for SciFi at all either. It is the premise of technology and post-modernism that doesn't appeal to me. So what? I tried Dune, Hienlien (sp) etc. The closest I can come to it is the Coldfire Trilogy (exception). I think that the element of technology connects me to this technological age and therefore keeps me from making a clean escape into the book.

I think this is a Fantasy forum and if Arch only likes fantasy then he is in the right place.

Or maybe it is just the Tokaji talking...

Best,
Joe

Thank You

And for the record, I have read Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, and Bear. I have read a few other sci fi authors as well, but I can't think of there names at the moment because it was a number of years ago. As I said in a prior post, Robert Heinlein's Stranger In A Strange Land is one of the best books I have ever read. So I have made an exploration of the science fiction genre. Has it been an 'extensive' exploration'....no it has not. But I have read enough to make a personal judgement that when it comes to casual reading, I simply prefer Epic Fantasy. I have read cross genre blends, the main one that comes to mind is CS Friedman's Coldfire Trilogy, which while it was superbly written, I just didn't find it that interesting.

 

[KatG]

You description of Otherland reminds me of The Matrix to a degree. I loved the Matrix movies, but wouldn't enjoy reading them. The special effects are such a neccessary part to get the 'feel' of the story. Otherland would probably make a good movie from your description of it as well as the reviews I have read of it.

But all in all, I am not a big fan of books being made into movies. I would rather directors and script writers come up with something new, than redoing old movies, or making eight million comic book movies, or translating books to film.

Peace

Don't you love that they're trying to reform you, Arch?

Otherland has nothing much in common with the Matrix movies except that it involves a mass VR network. Williams makes it pretty easy to follow everything, but if Coldfire didn't float your boat, Otherland probably won't. I don't think Otherland would be easy to make into a movie. You'd have to pare it down to the bare bones. The first novel ends wide open in the middle of the action, with everything unresolved. So you'd have to get a studio to commit to doing the whole series, and I don't think Otherland is big enough for that.

But as for studios going with original material over adaptations, apparently that's becoming rarer. A book proves that there is at least some audience appeal out there, and so more and more films are adaptations from books, memoirs or comics. It's sort of a funny situation -- film has always treated books with respect and interest as a source of good material, but the book market is tiny comparably. To think that written fiction is so influencing Hollywood at this point is a little weird. "How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days," for instance, was "adapted" from a nf self-help guide. The good news about that is that sf and fantasy fiction are often ignored by films and now may be a lot less so. I know the movie adaptations can be awful but they do give juice to the smaller book market.

And now, returning to topic, sorta, Fitz, give it up, Otherland is sf. Williams *wanted* it to be sf, but still appeal to his fans. At least, that's my vague memory from interviews with him.

Ingen -- I've never heard this about MST. It doesn't sound right to me, but my memory of the series is old. How would it be a racial critique of Tolkein?

 

[Rob B]

And now, returning to topic, sorta, Fitz, give it up, Otherland is sf. Williams *wanted* it to be sf, but still appeal to his fans. At least, that's my vague memory from interviews with him.

Sorry m'dear can't give it up! All Science Fiction can justifiably fall under the Fantasy banner.

Perhaps Mr. Williams did want it to be SF but it has the feel of Epic Fantasy with SF trappings of VR, futuristic society, and the :netfeed: blurbs starting each chapter.

 

[Archmage]

Don't you love that they're trying to reform you, Arch?

Otherland has nothing much in common with the Matrix movies except that it involves a mass VR network. Williams makes it pretty easy to follow everything, but if Coldfire didn't float your boat, Otherland probably won't. I don't think Otherland would be easy to make into a movie. You'd have to pare it down to the bare bones. The first novel ends wide open in the middle of the action, with everything unresolved. So you'd have to get a studio to commit to doing the whole series, and I don't think Otherland is big enough for that.

But as for studios going with original material over adaptations, apparently that's becoming rarer. A book proves that there is at least some audience appeal out there, and so more and more films are adaptations from books, memoirs or comics. It's sort of a funny situation -- film has always treated books with respect and interest as a source of good material, but the book market is tiny comparably. To think that written fiction is so influencing Hollywood at this point is a little weird. "How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days," for instance, was "adapted" from a nf self-help guide. The good news about that is that sf and fantasy fiction are often ignored by films and now may be a lot less so. I know the movie adaptations can be awful but they do give juice to the smaller book market.

And now, returning to topic, sorta, Fitz, give it up, Otherland is sf. Williams *wanted* it to be sf, but still appeal to his fans. At least, that's my vague memory from interviews with him.

Ingen -- I've never heard this about MST. It doesn't sound right to me, but my memory of the series is old. How would it be a racial critique of Tolkein?

Thank you for the review Kat. I thought The Coldfire Trilogy was superbly written, but I simply did not find it very interesting. But Fitz speaks so highly of Otherland, and Williams is a brilliant author. So I think at some point I will give it a read. For now, I am reading CJ Cherryh's Fortress Saga and it has been an absolutely wonderful read. Cherryh's prose and dialouge is outstanding. And the concept of the story is excellent and well thought out. Next on my list after I am finished with that saga is Erikson's Malazon Book of the Fallen, book one Gardens of the Moon. And then R. Scott Baker's The Darkness That Comes Before.

Peace
Arch

 

[KatG]

Sorry m'dear can't give it up! All Science Fiction can justifiably fall under the Fantasy banner.

Perhaps Mr. Williams did want it to be SF but it has the feel of Epic Fantasy with SF trappings of VR, futuristic society, and the :netfeed: blurbs starting each chapter.

Okay, hide in the bushes with your Canadian geese 'cause the sf authors are going to be hunting you with a shotgun. The appropriation of fantasy fans of any story that has the remotest "feel" of fantasy -- in this case, a vast VR network that allows participants to play fantasy games -- perplexes me, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Rob B]

Okay, hide in the bushes with your Canadian geese 'cause the sf authors are going to be hunting you with a shotgun. The appropriation of fantasy fans of any story that has the remotest "feel" of fantasy -- in this case, a vast VR network that allows participants to play fantasy games -- perplexes me, but that's a topic for a different thread.

I really don't feel I'm appropriating Otherland into fantasy because of its feel. It kind of bugs me when people do appropriate things for their own agenda, I wasn't trying to do that with Otherland, just to convice Archie to read it. However, there are many elements that are more recognizable as fantasy than sf. Here are a few things, in my mind, that put Otherland more along the fantasy root of speculative fiction

-The journey/quest aspect of the novel.
True some SF novels do have the theme of quest or journey, but for the most part, journey/quests are more a characteristic of fantasy, at least when compared against the sf I've read. For the most part Paul Jonas' story is a story based on a quest

-the big bad enemy-Felix Jonular
Whenever there is a protagonist, in any genre there is usually an antagonist. But again, IMHO, the "big bad enemy" is one of the stronger qualities of Epic Fantasy.

-The odd, fantastical worlds in Otherland
from the world where Thargor/Orlando hangs out, to the almost fairy-tale kitchen, to the use of the African myths/vr worlds and !Xabbu's creation myths, there, in my mind, is a decidedly fantasy feel to it rather than sf

-The Great Temple/Tower etc
See Mountain of Black Glass both the book and the actual Mountain as the Dark Tower/Temple/Fortress etc.

But really, we are just cutting hairs right now aren't we?

To make things nice, though, I like how Tad is proclaimed on his books something to the effect about his works being the finest Imaginative Literature.

As if my posts here would not have indicated, I CANNOT wait until Shadowmarch I is published in the fall.

 

[Richardb]

Yes, Shadowmarch! Put in my order yesterday. I am hoping... really hoping... it is a return to the story telling quality I found so compelling in MS&T. Not to knock all you who loved Otherland (It takes all kinds... )
But I want some more good standard epic fantasy. Have not seen it MS&T.

 

[Rob B]

But I want some more good standard epic fantasy.

Have you tried Greg Keyes new series?

 

[Richardb]

Briar King? Yes, very good, though he and Martin run a close tie for slow writing of sequels... though at least with Martin you get 1,000 pages of goodness, not just 400.