Williams - MS&T

The Charnel Prince is due out in a couple of weeks. I'm re-reading Briar King then my advance copy of The Charnel Prince for review for sffworld.

Back to Williams, thought, to keep it on topic -- I was going to re-read MS&T this fall but since Shadowmarch is coming out, I might just wait.
 
Actually picked up Dragonbone Chair and almost started re-reading this week, but came to the same conclusion as you did. I'll save it for later, after Shadowmarch.
I've read the first 5 chapters of shadowmarch from the shadowmarch web site and enjoyed them, so I am thinking that this should be a great thing. It felt like what I consider traditional Williams (MS&T style).
BTW - have Charnel Prince on order, but us lowly outsiders don't get advanced copies. ;)
 
So is Shadowmarch a new Williams series, with a return to Eppic Fantasy? Cool..

I have to say, I'm astounded by how much more I'm enjoying "To Green Angel Tower" than I did the first two books. Somehow the latter half of the series is so much more engaging.
 
Fitz said:
I really don't feel I'm appropriating Otherland into fantasy because of its feel. It kind of bugs me when people do appropriate things for their own agenda, I wasn't trying to do that with Otherland, just to convice Archie to read it. However, there are many elements that are more recognizable as fantasy than sf. Here are a few things, in my mind, that put Otherland more along the fantasy root of speculative fiction

-The journey/quest aspect of the novel.
True some SF novels do have the theme of quest or journey, but for the most part, journey/quests are more a characteristic of fantasy, at least when compared against the sf I've read. For the most part Paul Jonas' story is a story based on a quest [/QUEST]

Then you're not reading enough sf. :) Most sf involves a journey/quest plot of some sort. For that matter, the journey-quest idea is common throughout the lands of fiction. That the main character is trying to rescue her brother from those who've captured his mind does not make the work fantasy. It makes it a sf thriller actually.

-the big bad enemy-Felix Jonular
Whenever there is a protagonist, in any genre there is usually an antagonist. But again, IMHO, the "big bad enemy" is one of the stronger qualities of Epic Fantasy.

There is more than one enemy in Otherland. The enemy set-up, in fact, is far more characteristic of sf novels, with its corporate politics, than fantasy. As for big bad enemy, again, thrillers -- very common device. Does not make it fantasy.

-The odd, fantastical worlds in Otherland
from the world where Thargor/Orlando hangs out, to the almost fairy-tale kitchen, to the use of the African myths/vr worlds and !Xabbu's creation myths, there, in my mind, is a decidedly fantasy feel to it rather than sf

-The Great Temple/Tower etc
See Mountain of Black Glass both the book and the actual Mountain as the Dark Tower/Temple/Fortress etc.

The fantastical worlds of Otherland are not actual fantasy worlds. They are generated by a computer. They are no more magical than the Myst game in your computer right now. Having fantasy games in a VR network, or software programs that don't know they're software programs, or people who are trapped in the network and unaware that they aren't really in a fantasy world, or AI's that go rabid -- none of these turn the work into fantasy. They are more reflective of high tech and cyberpunk sf.

But really, we are just cutting hairs right now aren't we? ;)

Yes, and Tad Williams will tell you he doesn't care what you call it as long as you read it because authors hate the labels anyway. But he did intend it as sf and the plot is sf. There are no fantastic elements -- no magical, supernatural, unexplained phenomena.

The reason I split hairs about it isn't that I'm obsessed with market categories. It's that I don't get why people ignore the entire plot of a book, and quite often much of the thematic and character development as well, because they don't want the story to be what it is. Here the author has gone to all this work to set up a complicated sf plot and because there's a virtual ogres and some virtual swords, it must be fantasy? I do think fantasy fans would mostly enjoy the Otherland series. But I do not agree with the trend to label any book that is enjoyed as fantasy, because, what, fantasy is the only acceptable form of story? Anything that employs anything remotely fantasy-like becomes a fantastical story? It doesn't make sense. But that's my bug-a-boo.

What's a Shadowmarch?
 
KatG said:
Then you're not reading enough sf. Most sf involves a journey/quest plot of some sort. For that matter, the journey-quest idea is common throughout the lands of fiction. That the main character is trying to rescue her brother from those who've captured his mind does not make the work fantasy. It makes it a sf thriller actually.
I'll admit, in terms of SpecFic reading, I go probably about 75% Fantasy/25% Science Fiction. I also realize that first point I raised was a bit, flimsy. ;)

KatG said:
There is more than one enemy in Otherland. The enemy set-up, in fact, is far more characteristic of sf novels, with its corporate politics, than fantasy. As for big bad enemy, again, thrillers -- very common device. Does not make it fantasy.
Point.
KatG said:
The fantastical worlds of Otherland are not actual fantasy worlds. They are generated by a computer. They are no more magical than the Myst game in your computer right now. Having fantasy games in a VR network, or software programs that don't know they're software programs, or people who are trapped in the network and unaware that they aren't really in a fantasy world, or AI's that go rabid -- none of these turn the work into fantasy. They are more reflective of high tech and cyberpunk sf.
I know they are CG worlds and that brings it over to the SF root of SpecFic/Imaginative Literature, but when I read the scenes and portions of the novel that took place in the VR worlds, I felt as if I was reading scenes from "fantasy" worlds.
KatG said:
Yes, and Tad Williams will tell you he doesn't care what you call it as long as you read it because authors hate the labels anyway. But he did intend it as sf and the plot is sf. There are no fantastic elements -- no magical, supernatural, unexplained phenomena.
When you put it that way, it's hard to argue. I stall can't shake the fantasy-vibe about it and thinking of it as a work of Fantasy wrapped up with/in sf ideas, me being a stubborn Polish Kraut. And you are making me want to re-read it!!

KatG said:
The reason I split hairs about it isn't that I'm obsessed with market categories. It's that I don't get why people ignore the entire plot of a book, and quite often much of the thematic and character development as well, because they don't want the story to be what it is. Here the author has gone to all this work to set up a complicated sf plot and because there's a virtual ogres and some virtual swords, it must be fantasy? I do think fantasy fans would mostly enjoy the Otherland series. But I do not agree with the trend to label any book that is enjoyed as fantasy, because, what, fantasy is the only acceptable form of story? Anything that employs anything remotely fantasy-like becomes a fantastical story? It doesn't make sense. But that's my bug-a-boo.
Often I do read a book looking at WHAT and WHY the author brought in plot elements and genre elements, I guess with the case of Otherland I was reading it from a pure entertainment standpoint and not necessarily ignoring what TW did in bringing all the SF elements together, but reading it as a great story. That and I could be pulling some of this out of my proverbial rear as I read it immediately upon publication three years ago, so trying to remember my specific reactions, well...

KatG said:
What's a Shadowmarch?

His next book, due out November 1. Here's the Web siteShadowmarch and Here's the amazon.com page It started as an online novel, published in chapters. The funding didn't work out as well, DAW Books offered Tad a contract to publish it traditionally, and there you go.
 
Fitz said:
The Charnel Prince is due out in a couple of weeks. I'm re-reading Briar King then my advance copy of The Charnel Prince for review for sffworld.

Back to Williams, thought, to keep it on topic -- I was going to re-read MS&T this fall but since Shadowmarch is coming out, I might just wait.


I am with you Fitz. I am really looking forward to both The Charnel Prince by Keyes and Shadowmarch by Williams. The Briar King was simply outstanding. Greg Keyes has quickly become one of my favorite authors. I am also looking forward to The Two Swords by R.A. Salvatore, which is the last installement of The Hunter's Blades Trilogy. As well A Feast for Crows by Martin (although who knows when it will be released) and The Shadow Roads by Sean Russell, which I believe is going to be the final installment of his War of the Swans saga.
 
I finally finished it! It took something silly like almost 3 or 4 months (I think I must have started the series in June)...They were pretty big books, and I read slower (and less) than I used to!

I thought it was really good, especially the last book (parts I and II of To Green Angel Tower), it really sucked me in. Simon's romance with Miriamele really drew me in, especially the kind of hurtful and brutal side of it... and I just started caring for a lot of the characters. It was a tale well told, and in the end I was glad to have read it! It kind of had a happy ending, but it still managed to avoid being totally cliche... and I was happy to see what happened to Simon! Oh, and Rachel the Dragon! :o
 
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Iskaral Pust said:
I think I actually enjoyed the Dragonbone Chair the most out of the series. I don't want to put a dampner on your spirits Evil Agent, but I was really disappointed by the ending.

Yes, well -- Williams is a great storyteller. Unfortunately, the stories he tells are, ultimately, lacking. This is true, I feel, for both the Memory and Otherland series. Haven't yet read Flowers (or Shadowmarch) -- but obviously even fans don't think this his greatest achievement, so I'm not holding my breath.

For all his talents, Williams would, to me, seem to be one of the most overrated writers in the field.

(Sorry, Fitz!)
 
Julian said:
Yes, well -- Williams is a great storyteller. Unfortunately, the stories he tells are, ultimately, lacking. This is true, I feel, for both the Memory and Otherland series. Haven't yet read Flowers (or Shadowmarch) -- but obviously even fans don't think this his greatest achievement, so I'm not holding my breath.

For all his talents, Williams would, to me, seem to be one of the most overrated writers in the field.

(Sorry, Fitz!)



Sorry too!!! But I agree that he is one of the best storytellers by far!!! MST is one of my favourite reads and hope to reread it one day!! :D As for Otherlands series, can not say anything yet! That series is in my to-read pile. I will let you know what I think sometime down the road! ;)
 
Iskaral Pust said:
I think I actually enjoyed the Dragonbone Chair the most out of the series. I don't want to put a dampner on your spirits Evil Agent, but I was really disappointed by the ending. I won't say anything more as I don't want to spoil anything.

Yeah, I stumbled onto this series after reading the Otherland series, and it started out promisingly enough, but after the third book, I was really hard-pressed to finish it. It's not that it's bad or anything, it just stretched out a bit too much. I still class Williams as one of my favourite fantasy authors though.

Incidentally, I'd class the Otherland series as Fantasy, with a slight element of science fiction. It tends more towards the typical fantasy genre, though, and ultimately, sci-fi is fantasy set in space/future.

What's all this nonsense about writing off a whole genre?! Christ man, there are so many greats out there, and by narrow-mindedly avoiding that genre, I'm afraid you'll never open your eyes... Orson Scott Card, Asimov, Frank Herbert...
 
Julian said:
Yes, well -- Williams is a great storyteller. Unfortunately, the stories he tells are, ultimately, lacking. This is true, I feel, for both the Memory and Otherland series. Haven't yet read Flowers (or Shadowmarch) -- but obviously even fans don't think this his greatest achievement, so I'm not holding my breath.

For all his talents, Williams would, to me, seem to be one of the most overrated writers in the field.

(Sorry, Fitz!)
Hey, no need to apologize. To each their own. There are authors out there I feel are overrated that many people like, such as Neal Stephenson and John Crowley.
 
M,S&T- questions

Possible spoilers:

Sorry if there has been already such thread but I just finished reading Tad William's novels and have a few questions. Why did he left so many story lines open: Joshua's children and Camaris for example? Was it on purpose? I really hate when authors do things like that. Memory,Sorrow and Thorn is pretty old series so I guess there will be no more books clearing the plots in his world... :(
P.S. The novels are really good, thugh the ending too predictable and "happy". I made a guess what's going to happen in the end and I was exactly right :rolleyes:
 
Memory,Sorrow and Thorn is pretty old series so

Yeah, I barely remember the 90s when I had to ride my horse to school. What were those ancient things we listened to music on - oh, yeah, CDs.

:confused:

You might want to do a search. There are about twenty threads on MST.

Also, the good news is Tad IS planning on doing a novel (not sure if it will be stand-alone or a series) that takes place in the same world a millenia or so later - perhaps we will get those answers then. Otherwise, it's called imagination. Some of us have had to use that for twenty years waiting for Donaldson to continue the Covenant stories.
 
Actually, Tad is going to publish a collection of short stories taking place in Osten Ard title A Chronicle in Stone.

Authors can't wrap every single storyline up in such sprawling epic.
 
Fitz said:
Authors can't wrap every single storyline up in such sprawling epic.

And some of think that's a good thing, that they shouldn't have to wrap everything up. What's wrong with a few loose ends. To hop on King's recent bandwagon, it's about the journey, not the end...if what happens to whoever's kids or whatnot isn't what the author is focusing on, why make the series any longer just to talk about that...and if you DO address what happens to their kids, why not then go into the next generation, and then the one after that....there comes a time when every story needs to end.
 
I agree, and that's what I was getting at, sort of.

Real Life doesn't always have closure and things aren't always resovled. Seeing this in fiction makes the story more plausible, in my book.
 
Did you have any other info on that collection of short stories, or is it only just in the planning stage as of yet?
 
At one point, it was to be his "next project" after War of the Flowers, but Shadowmarch happened. Indications are that it will be the next thing he does after Shadowmarch.
 

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