Writing Processes

[KatG]

We've had a lot of threads that talked about various aspects of people's writing processes, outlining, etc. and sometimes quotes, but I thought I'd set up one where we can put in quotes from published SFFH authors about how they work, how the way that they work may have changed, etc., as it's a common interview question. And it gives people a sense of the many different ways authors tackle writing and end up having it work for them. (If we have one already and I missed it, let me know and I'll merge it.)

Here's one from a recent interview with Lois McMaster Bujold:

MD: So, National Novel Writing Month is basically about creating a first draft of at least 50,000 words. What’s your favorite thing about writing the first draft?

LMB: Finishing it. (-:

Starting it runs a close second, true. Then, probably, those moments when a sticky knot gets suddenly undone by some neat idea or inspiration that I didn’t have — often couldn’t have had — earlier.

I do rolling revisions — correcting, rewriting, re-outlining, and dinking as I go — because if I don’t get my edits in pretty early, my prose sets up like concrete, and it takes a jackhammer to pry it open. Also, by the end I will be tired and frantic and in no state of mind for careful polishing, still less major surgery. Since I’m usually doing novels or novellas, there’s too much to face, not to mention wrangle and just find, if I save all that till the finish.

This is a shift from earlier decades, when my method was to complete each chapter, print it out, run it past my test readers, and then do little more than make notes on the pages till I circled around for the final run/s. (There’s never only one.) In the past few years I’ve finally gone paperless, so I do a lot more micro-editing along the way now.

I experimented very briefly with trying to go without the penciled-notes stage, as well, but that did not work for me. I still need my three-ring notebook and Number 2 pencil to capture, hold, and organize my thoughts and outlines. Without that prefabricated, tested through-line, I stall out at the keyboard, or the scene or especially dialogue sequence loses direction and disintegrates. (I do changes and additions at the typing-in stage as well, but generally over a connected structural skeleton, if one can apply so solid a metaphor to what is actually a bag of thoughts.)

Here's the link to the interview, which is about writing: https://eightladieswriting.com/2016...kay-four-questions-about-the-writing-process/

 

[N. E. White]

I like this idea: 'a bag of thoughts.'

 

[Igor]

Kat, are you aiming for 'human' authors, as in approachable people around us, or do we also include the superstars in this section? Personally, advice or comments from ordinary people seem more plausible, because those who have long succeeded have probably compressed their experiences and cannot really tell years and years of hard work, luck, ambition, and talent apart.

Igor

 

[KatG]

Authors in general is fine, but yes, I also want to include major authors who get asked about their process, because frankly newer authors will actually believe them. Process and career are not the same thing. Process has little to do with their success or the luck or hard work they've put into the writing, or ambition. It has to do with how their brains work, which for each author is a continual process that they very well remember. You're all different and you handle different types of stories different ways. And one of the hardest things to get across to authors starting out is this reality -- that authors are all different and work in different ways. You see it in the snarls that various big name authors don't write their series like other authors write theirs and therefore those authors are deficient or uncaring. You see it in the assertions that all authors must outline and adhere to it rigidly or that all authors must concentrate on plot or character, etc. And because authors don't know or know but get discouraged, they spend a lot of time trying to write in a way that their brains don't work. They don't just pick up the tips that are helpful to them; they look for a formula they think they need to adhere to. They look for someone to give them commands and permissions. They try to make it rote schooling. And mostly it breeds fear.

But when authors talk about their writing together, they talk about all the weird things that personally only work for them and how one book project went one way and another went the other way. It lets people see that there are different ways to do it, and that doing it a different way won't mean that you won't necessarily sell your work because here are authors who have sold who have done it in that different way. It gives authors ideas they can try if they are having trouble to see if they may work for them. So I'm hoping to add to this thread when I can to show that spectrum. I don't know if I'll manage it much for a bit because recent events have caused serious problems and dangers for my family. But I'm happy to have, when people run across an author in an interview talking about their process -- not their careers but their writing process, as Bujold did -- they can put up the quote here if they like for other authors to consider.

And authors here can simply talk about their process here too. What Bujold talked about, her process, was not implausible -- it's how she writes, because it works for her and some of the ways that it worked changed when she found certain things worked for her better than others. That's the same for other authors who aren't as well known. And some of what she does for herself may be helpful for others. Or at the least serves as an example of the variety of working methods out there, which can be helpful to give newer authors the "permission" some of them insist they need in order to write in the way that actually works for them.

 

[kmtolan]

The first thing you need to realize is that there is no spoon...

 

[Alchemist]

The most common thing I hear writers say is "Everyone's process is different; what works for me may not work for you." Or something to that effect. The point being, figure out your own process--try different things, dabble, but don't think that there's some magic formula, or that what you're doing is wrong because X famous writer does things differently.

A good example is the whole "outliner" to "improviser" spectrum. There is no correct formula. Everyone is on the spectrum, or incorporates both to some degree, but it really changes depending upon the writer (and even story).

 

[Stephen Palmer]

It definitely depends on the book. Some need more structure, some less. Some can work with none.

 

[hscope]

Writing is just like anything else that is produced away from the public eye. Anyone reading my book, for example, has no idea about what I went through to write it; all the errors, excised chapters, discarded characters, muddled thinking, doubt, general angst and eventual satisfaction. They just see a finished book and hope it's worth reading and have zero concern about how it was completed. Just like buying a chair or anything else ready-made.

That's why it's important to find your own process that makes such a herculean task as comfortable and as manageable for you as possible. The end result is the only important aspect and the methods other writers employ to get to the end of a piece of writing are neither right or wrong. Or important. If their experience helps or inspires you, then great. If not, then find some other way.

 

[KatG]

Yes, we've got that; that's not entirely what the thread is for. The thread is for examples of how different writers do it differently so that authors can have lots of ideas to try out in working out their own processes. You all can talk about your own process, how you do it, including how it might change from project to project -- not as right or wrong, but as possible tools. And if you find a writer talking about their process in an interview that you find interesting, link or quote it up here. It's essentially just another writing resource base.

 

[Luka Datas]

this article focuses on a grab bag of best selling authors' methods that they have in common.

Best advice I ever heard on writing was actually from a book on giving speeches. I'll have to paraphrase because I don't have it to hand but it was something like... "The most important thing you have to know if you want to present confidence is that -- who you are and what you have to share is vital."

Might seem like self help guru hogwash but if a writer thinks otherwise they'll probably just revisit the conclusions of others which isn't that interesting.

 

[hscope]

Yes, we've got that; that's not entirely what the thread is for. The thread is for examples of how different writers do it differently so that authors can have lots of ideas to try out in working out their own processes. You all can talk about your own process, how you do it, including how it might change from project to project -- not as right or wrong, but as possible tools. And if you find a writer talking about their process in an interview that you find interesting, link or quote it up here. It's essentially just another writing resource base.

You're right. I got sidetracked, sorry!

 

[KatG]

You're right. I got sidetracked, sorry!

I didn't just mean your post, lol. And it's not a problem, just clarifying the OP. It would have helped if I had put together several different authors, but I just have not had time and will be traveling.

 

[hscope]

I didn't just mean your post, lol. And it's not a problem, just clarifying the OP. It would have helped if I had put together several different authors, but I just have not had time and will be traveling.

Well, it did get me thinking about my writing process, so here’s my own particular method of madness. For what it’s worth.

For context, I’ve written two novels (one published) and nine feature screenplays (none produced – yet!) and I used this same process for each work.

• A basic idea comes to me (e.g. What if an 18th century British convict ship travelled through time to today)
  
• I mull the idea over. Is it a short story? Is it big enough to be a novel or a movie? I think of some set-pieces, scenes, perhaps an ending.
  
• Convinced there is a complete work there, I start to ‘play’ scenes in my head, like a movie, only seen from a distance. I make links between scenes. A rough ending usually emerges now, as does the middle section. I can now run a very out-of-focus movie in my head.
  
• I now turn my thoughts to where to start and this is where characters begin to emerge from the fog. I can now begin ‘zooming in’ on the movie in my head. I walk each main character through the story, moving them around like chess pieces.
  
• When it all kinda-sorta makes sense, I run the whole thing through my head many, many times until I get so excited I have to start writing. (With my published novel, it was probably six months from idea to keyboard. Scripts have varied between a week and two years, and I am still brewing a novel from an idea I got in the 1980s).
  
• I now write, which I liken to watching the movie version in my head and writing down what I ‘see.’ Lots of things change and characters often protest about what I try to make them do, but essentially the mental picture is converted to print.

I don’t make any written notes at all (although I usually jot down a few dot points towards the end to remind me to tie up all the story strands), as I figure that if I forget something it wasn’t worth remembering.

This method is not all smooth sailing, as I often write myself into corners and scenes or plot points or indeed characters sometimes refuse to do what I say, but I am comfortable with it. In my early writing days I used to write elaborate outlines for stories, but my anal personality would not allow me to deviate from my notes, stifling my creativity.

I think the great appeal for me of this method is that I know enough to be confident I have a story, but not enough to prevent the constant surprises leaping from the page. It’s a lot of fun.

I’m not against trying new processes – I write short films with a co-writer, which is very different – but for my solo writing I’m very happy to have found this comfortable path through my work.

 

[PeteMC]

Hopefully I count as human, so I’ll take a stab at this if you like. This is going to be long.

Tl;dr version: I used to be a pantser hoping what I wrote would sell, now I’m established and a plotter writing (I think) to the market. And I still cocked it up.

Full version:

I’ve just finished a new novel, and it went a bit like this…

IDEA:

Six months ago I thought, I’ve got three novels in a series trade published (two in the shops and one coming May 2017) and they’re urban fantasy.

Only they’re not, really. They’re crime novels with magic and demons in, but that’s not a thing so they get marketed as urban fantasy. That puts me with the Dresden Files and the Anita Blake books and that sort of thing. And here comes the admission – I don’t read those books. I read crime books and fantasy books and occult books and history books, and that’s where my stuff comes from. I don’t do vampires or werewolves or whatever, but that’s what I’m shelved with. Fair enough, that’s How It Works and I’m not complaining because hey, I’m shelved, but it means I’m being published in a genre category I don’t actually read.

So it’s time to make a career decision. I’m currently out of contract with my publisher until we do the next deal so I can do what I like just now, right? I mean sure, I really want to write more Drake books, but not just now. At this point the next Drake book wasn’t due to hit the shelves for almost a year, so there was no rush to write the one after that. So what to do?

My heart tells me I want to be shelved in one of the genres I DO read for pleasure, which are crime and fantasy. I mean proper “swords and horses” fantasy, where GRRM lives. Great, but I’m not GRRM and I don’t want to be just another one of the elventy billion people who are trying to be GRRM, because I know I wouldn’t be very good at it. I can’t do multi-POV epics with huge casts, my head doesn’t work like that.

I’d love to write a straight crime novel but in all honesty I have no idea how to do that and I like magic too much anyway, so that’s out (for now. One day…). So, “swords and horses” plus crime, is that a thing? Who does that? Scott Lynch does that, and, um… yeah. Pretty much Scott Lynch, at the top level anyway. So that market isn’t anywhere near as crowded as the “I wanna be the new GRRM” market, and I don’t like crowds.

Now I like Scott Lynch a lot, but I don’t write like him. I write like me, but for all that I read a hell of a lot of “swords and horses” I don’t write it, so I don’t know what it’ll turn out like. Shall we try it and see?

WRITING:

Of course we will. How do you write a “swords and horses” crime novel? No idea, but one of my favourite TV shows in recent memory was Peaky Blinders. That’s set in 1918 so it’s no help whatsoever, but it opens with a gang boss coming home from the Great War and I dug that idea, so I pinched it.

Great, that’s the opening sorted then, now I need a character who can be coming home from his war. I have no idea who this guy is yet, so I’m just going to start writing that scene in first person until I get his voice down, then I’ll be able to figure out who he is because he’ll pretty much tell me.

That’s the way it works for me – setting first, then voice, then character, then interactions with other characters, then I can start to figure out who they all are and what they’re doing and why they’re doing it.

I got his voice down, and discovered that when I’m writing this sort of thing I sound a bit like Mark Lawrence. I can live with that. Onwards.

Now I already know this is going to be a novel because that’s what I write and sell, but it’s not going to be a Robert Jordan-sized doorstop because it’s my first in this genre so no one would be keen to buy a book that long, and also because life’s too short. But fantasy runs longer than UF, so I’ll aim for around 100-120k.

Target acquired. Lock and load.

By this point I know who my guy is and what his goals are, and I’ve got a fairly good idea in my head how to utterly screw him over and make his life hard. I hit the planning board.

Now this is a new thing for me – my first two published books (and the three unmentionable ones before those) were pretty much pantsed and I wrote the synopsis afterwards so I could sell them, but I sold book 3 on spec. That meant I wrote a synopsis for a book that didn’t exist, so when I came to actually write it I had to turn that synopsis into an outline and then turn that into a novel that (pretty much) stuck to the synopsis, which was a first for me. That felt like doing it inside out to me, but it worked.

What worked once will work again, so that’s how I did this one as well. Only I screwed it up.

Oh boy did I screw it up. By the time I’m 70k words into the MS and still only a third of the way through my outline I begin to realise just how much I’ve screwed it up. There’s no way I’m selling a 200k+ book in a genre I’m not already know in.

Swords and horses fantasy needs a lot more words to say almost everything than a modern-day setting does, and I kinda hadn’t thought of that at the planning stage. Live and learn…

Mercifully I’d plotted this out to be a four act structure, so I was able to drop the axe at the end of act two and still have a complete story, and already have an outline for Book 2 in hand. Result! Sort of…

If it sells, there’s a good chance of them both selling together, so two-book deal goodness. If it doesn’t, well, I’ve only wasted 100k not 200k, so there’s that. No guarantees, there never are, but I’ve got a good feeling about this one.

 

[KatG]

LOL, okay, well most of this was pretty off topic. Your writing process is how you write fiction, any kind of fiction, not story type selection and marketing issues. But we can diverge a bit here.

95% of fantasy and science fiction is suspense fiction: Mystery, crime thrillers, war thrillers, adventure thrillers, spy thrillers, etc., and of course all of horror is suspense. So when you write fantasy, except for a few types of stories you might do, you are also a suspense writer. You don't usually get extra points for saying you're a suspense writer because nearly everybody is for nearly everything they write in SFFH.

Contemporary fantasy is fantasy fiction in a contemporary setting on Earth or an alternate version of Earth. It is a long established sub-category of fantasy fiction. (Market sub-categories of fantasy fiction are based on setting.) In the 1980's, author K.W. Jeter came up with the term "urban fantasy" to describe contemporary fantasy stories he and other authors were doing, as opposed to fantasy fiction that was pre-industrial secondary world, portal or multiverse concentrating on pre-industrial realms. This was largely unnecessary, but that's never stopped anybody before and the term caught on, to the extent that while it indicated an urban city setting, it was used as a synonym name for all contemporary fantasy even if the fantasy had a rural Earth setting. But in the 1990's, the term got less play. In the early oughts, having a cluster of successful authors in contemporary fantasy, including Butcher and Hamilton, got more media attention for contemporary fantasy. Various alternate terms were floated for this fiction (for some reason contemporary fantasy, the main term, is used but not always the favorite.) At one time supernatural fantasy was very popular as a choice and you can see old threads we have with that coming up, and this one, which was recs of contemporary fantasy, can give folks a bigger sense of the field: http://www.sffworld.com/forum/threads/supernatural-contemporary-urban-fantasy.12100/ But people also revived the term "urban fantasy," since it was still around, and consequently, urban fantasy has again become the synonym for contemporary fantasy.

95% of contemporary/urban fantasy is identical to the suspense/mystery market in frame, approach, types and plots. Most of it is mystery/crime fiction, although some of it is spy thrillers (related) or adventure thrillers. Contemporary fantasy has some war thrillers but less than secondary world fantasy. The most usual frame is to have individual mysteries in each book in a series and overarching more thriller world elements across the series. Which is basically what you also chose. What Jim Butcher does with Harry Dresden and Hamilton with Anita Blake is no different than what you did with Drake, Pete -- it's the bread and butter of contemporary fantasy. So yes, you were put in that sub-category because that's what you wrote -- a contemporary crime-mystery thriller fantasy series. It has a lot of noir style to it and a bit of satire of that noir style as well, which again, is a favorite approach of the contemporary fantasy authors. So Drake is where he should be and if you feel you've done what you want with him in a trilogy, then you can move to something else, or keep doing works with him periodically while you also do other series. It's not at all unusual to do it. Butcher has a secondary world series, the Codex series. Fantasy writers frequently write sec world, contemporary fantasy, YA, SF, mystery, etc. in different series. It can give you a much wider fanbase, although a lot of the time, it simply happens because authors drift from one idea to another they like, taking them to different but related categories or sub-categories.

The criminal/thief/assassin is the third most beloved type of character/story in secondary world fantasy (and in historical fantasy for that matter, which is also a sub-category that may eventually call you.) There are reams of sword and horses and crime fantasy books, including mystery, spy and crime thriller. Lynch was not at all breaking new ground, now or in the past. He's following a grand tradition. And since you already have shown you can do the mythological contemporary noir fantasy and get enough sales for those, you have an excellent shot at selling a new series that is a secondary world crime story and getting your contemporary fans to read it, while also hopefully getting new fans who will then read the Drake books too.

Your writing process may mean you need not to read other authors when you are working on the new ms. But in selling the work, when you get to that point, it might be helpful, so I offer a small list below. This is only a tiny number of books/series that are crime fiction in secondary world fantasy.

Any fantasy writer wanting to market secondary world pre-industrial fantasy should not be paying any attention to George, but to a much wider sweep of lead and mid-list titles. It's not a matter of fitting your work to them, obviously. It's a matter of finding out where what you've chosen to write is relative to the wide market, who is in your neighborhood as reference points. All the authors in your neighborhood are your friends, especially the ones on the same publisher list, because written fiction is a symbiotic market. Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden is Drake's best buddy. Brings in readers for Drake. And you've brought in readers for other people in contemporary fantasy and fantasy fiction in general. And the vast majority of fantasy fans are not that hidebound -- they read a lot of different types, and science fiction and suspense too. Many of your fans will follow what you are up to next. You're not jumping ship, you're building and expanding. If you glance over the market and say that one author is the only one doing X, then you're not really looking at the market.

Fritz Lieber, Fafhred & the Grey Mouser stories
Steven Brust, Vlad Taltos series
Glen Cook, Garrett P.I. series
Ellen Kushner, Swordspoint series
Peter David, Sir Apropos of Nothing series
Douglas Hulick, Tales of the Kin series
Mike Sullivan, Riyria series
Tamara Siler Jones, Dubric Byerly series
Max Gladstone, Craft Sequence series
Carol Berg, Collegia Magica series
Michelle Sagara, Chronicles of Elantra series
Mark Charan Newton, Drakenfeld series
Daniel Polansky, Low Town series
Simon R. Green, Hawke & Fisher series
Alex Bledsoe, Eddie La Crosse series
Francis Knight, Rojan Dizon series
Keith R.A. DeCandido, Dragon Precinct series
Graham Edwards, Talus and the Frozen King
Richard K. Morgan, Land Fit for Heroes trilogy
Chris Wooding, Ketty Jay series
Rachel Aaron, Eli Moonpress series
David Dalglish, Shadowdance series
Sarah Monette, Doctrine of Labyrinths series
Martha Wells, The Death of the Necromancer
Ari Marmell, Goblin Corps, Widdershins Adventures series
Lindsay Buroker, The Emperor's Edge series
Patricia Weekes, Rogues of the Republic series

And then there's Thieves World, the most famous shared world anthology series.

 

[PeteMC]

LOL, okay, well most of this was pretty off topic. Your writing process is how you write fiction, any kind of fiction, not story type selection and marketing issues. But we can diverge a bit here.

Yeah sorry, I got my ramble on a bit with that one… I’m not sure I completely agree though – for me at least, deciding what to write and why is a big part of the process of how I go about doing it.

95% of fantasy and science fiction is suspense fiction: Mystery, crime thrillers, war thrillers, adventure thrillers, spy thrillers, etc., and of course all of horror is suspense. So when you write fantasy, except for a few types of stories you might do, you are also a suspense writer. You don't usually get extra points for saying you're a suspense writer because nearly everybody is for nearly everything they write in SFFH.

This is of course very true, and I’m not looking for “special snowflake” points here at all. I think the point I was trying to make is that, certainly now anyway, urban fantasy is normally associated with paranormal romance and sexy vampires and so forth, which is fine, but that if you’re looking for those things and pick my books up you’re going to be disappointed.

The most usual frame is to have individual mysteries in each book in a series and overarching more thriller world elements across the series. Which is basically what you also chose. What Jim Butcher does with Harry Dresden and Hamilton with Anita Blake is no different than what you did with Drake, Pete -- it's the bread and butter of contemporary fantasy. So yes, you were put in that sub-category because that's what you wrote -- a contemporary crime-mystery thriller fantasy series. It has a lot of noir style to it and a bit of satire of that noir style as well, which again, is a favorite approach of the contemporary fantasy authors. So Drake is where he should be and if you feel you've done what you want with him in a trilogy, then you can move to something else, or keep doing works with him periodically while you also do other series.

Yeah I quite agree. I’ve not read any Hamilton but the Drake books are quite deliberately structured like the Dresden ones, for all that they go in quite a different direction. That’s me writing to the market, right there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining that Drake is shelved in UF – that’s where it belongs. I just meant that I’d like to spend some time on the other shelves, with my mates on their horses with swords in their hands.

The criminal/thief/assassin is the third most beloved type of character/story in secondary world fantasy (and in historical fantasy for that matter, which is also a sub-category that may eventually call you.) There are reams of sword and horses and crime fantasy books, including mystery, spy and crime thriller. Lynch was not at all breaking new ground, now or in the past. He's following a grand tradition.

I agree, and I kinda don’t. Yes there have been fantasies about thieves and assassins since Conan and probably before, but when I say “crime” that’s not really what I mean. I’m thinking the Godfather with a sword, a medieval Mafioso type thing – organised crime syndicates, protection rackets, drug smuggling etc. I’m sure there is some somewhere, but I’ve not managed to find it. Abercrombie had some of that in Best Served Cold but it was in the background, not the main focus of the story. Brent Weeks had the sort of thing at the start of the first Night Angel too, but again it wasn’t the main story. I want the book where it is.

And since you already have shown you can do the mythological contemporary noir fantasy and get enough sales for those, you have an excellent shot at selling a new series that is a secondary world crime story and getting your contemporary fans to read it, while also hopefully getting new fans who will then read the Drake books too.

That’s certainly the plan!

Thanks for the list of recs – I’ve read about half of those, but will certainly track down some of the others.

 

[KatG]

I’m not sure I completely agree though – for me at least, deciding what to write and why is a big part of the process of how I go about doing it.

Are you saying you wrote Drake in a different way from the project you are working on now? We're talking about the actual doing of writing, not planning to write or plot ideas. So if you find that you write different books in different ways, that's interesting to folk.

I think the point I was trying to make is that, certainly now anyway, urban fantasy is normally associated with paranormal romance and sexy vampires and so forth, which is fine, but that if you’re looking for those things and pick my books up you’re going to be disappointed.

So you think Jim Butcher, Ben Aaronovitch, Kevin Hearne, Charles de Lint, Mike Carey, etc. are writing paranormal romances and that's why they sell so well? Or is it just the women authors who aren't allowed to be considered to be writing anything else? Nobody "associates" stuff with urban contemporary fantasy because it's again a wide field with lots of different kinds of fans. And just because you have a sexy angel instead of a sexy vampire does not mean you get a hall pass either. So yes, you are doing a little bit of special snowflaking instead of taking advantage of the deep bench you have in the contemporary fantasy field to help you out with your series and also to bring readers into a new secondary world series as well. Some fantasy readers have very specific preferences, but the majority of them do not -- they read several different types of fantasy and quite often science fiction or mystery. They will also follow authors they like into different types of stories the author wants to write.

And as for the romance readers, romance media happily reviews any book with a solid romance in it, even if it's not the main plot, including all types of fantasy. Which means that your books have probably been reviewed by them and sent readers your way. Because romance readers read quite widely also. And a secondary world godfather story that has a decent romance sub-plot will get the same treatment. Mystery media does the same thing as mystery fans will also read mystery/suspense SFF. So don't worry about who you are associated with -- any association brings you readers.

That’s me writing to the market, right there. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining that Drake is shelved in UF – that’s where it belongs. I just meant that I’d like to spend some time on the other shelves, with my mates on their horses with swords in their hands.

And that would make you like about 75% of the fantasy authors. The market is used to that. (And most of the market puts all the books on the same set of shelves -- fantasy.) But I think I get where you're getting -- you've been playing trace the market trend and now this project snuck up on you and you're not sure that's going to work because you don't think it's a market trend, yes? To which I say, pffbh.

I say “crime” that’s not really what I mean. I’m thinking the Godfather with a sword, a medieval Mafioso type thing – organised crime syndicates, protection rackets, drug smuggling etc. I’m sure there is some somewhere, but I’ve not managed to find it.

You mean like Douglas Hulick's Tales of the Kin? And Daniel Polansky's beloved Low Town novels? There's plenty of room for you to do it, but crime syndicates and thief empires are fairly common. Terry Pratchett even has them unionized in Discworld.

One of the reasons that I get on cases for saying nobody or nearly nobody is doing this in the market is because you go around saying it and you're going to piss other authors off. Claiming that all the older authors did happy elf stories pisses off the older authors, etc. Making dramatic, blanket statements about the field pisses off the people who are in it.

Also a possible to check out: Hope And Red by Jon Skovron.

 

[PeteMC]

Are you saying you wrote Drake in a different way from the project you are working on now? We're talking about the actual doing of writing, not planning to write or plot ideas. So if you find that you write different books in different ways, that's interesting to folk.

Yep, that’s exactly what I was getting at. Drake grew very organically (it actually started life as a doodle that turned into a short story in the first SFFWorld anthology then into a novel), whereas the new thing was written from plan to outline to book.

<SNIP>So yes, you are doing a little bit of special snowflaking instead of taking advantage of the deep bench you have in the contemporary fantasy field to help you out with your series and also to bring readers into a new secondary world series as well.

You know what, I am aren’t I? <hangs head in shame>

You mean like Douglas Hulick's Tales of the Kin? And Daniel Polansky's beloved Low Town novels? There's plenty of room for you to do it, but crime syndicates and thief empires are fairly common. Terry Pratchett even has them unionized in Discworld.

One of the reasons that I get on cases for saying nobody or nearly nobody is doing this in the market is because you go around saying it and you're going to piss other authors off. Claiming that all the older authors did happy elf stories pisses off the older authors, etc. Making dramatic, blanket statements about the field pisses off the people who are in it.

Also a possible to check out: Hope And Red by Jon Skovron.

Must confess I haven’t read those, will have to hunt them down.

Anyway I *really* didn’t mean to piss anyone off with this, sorry if I have.

 

[hscope]

I think pissing other writers off is one of the true and enduring pleasures of being a writer.

 

[N. E. White]

Anyway I *really* didn’t mean to piss anyone off with this, sorry if I have.

Did someone not get the memo that @KatG likes to argue, dope!, I mean, discuss things in great detail?

Regardless, I like it when she descends upon us this way. She always reveals the biases we often do not even know exist within us.