Deborah J. Miller has been a published writer since her short story Dinosaur was shortlisted for the Ian St James Award in 1993. She is best known for her Last Clansman series (starting with Talisker in 2001, going on to Dark Thane in 2002 and ending with Lore Bringer in 2004). Her new book, Swarmthief’s Dance, has just been published by TOR UK.
Hobbit: Hello, Debbie – welcome to this area of SFFWorld!
DJM: Thanks, Hobbit (looks around) – like what you’ve done with the place – very shee-shee. . .
Hobbit: LOL. Thank you. The colour matches my eyes. [grins]
Let’s look at the past first. Though your latest book, Swarmthief’s Dance, is published under your name of Deborah J Miller, you are not new to the fantasy genre. Please explain your previous existence!
DJM: Well, I chose Miller Lau at the start of my career, mainly because of my own genre prejudices – that is to say, I predominantly read male fantasy authors. I wanted readers to get past that vital three second decision on whether to actually pick up my books to read the back-cover blurb and I knew from my own preferences, that many simply would not pick up a female author. So, I invented Miller Lau to be deliberately androgynous for at least those few seconds. Of course, the moment anyone read my publisher’s note/biog inside, they would be aware of my gender, but hopefully, they would read the jacket first and be intrigued enough to buy.
I realized that almost all the writers I regard as formative influences were male because, genre fiction as a whole used to be a male territory with few notable exceptions of course, things have changed and are still changing but I maintain that some readers still believe that women authors “cannot do gritty.”
Hobbit: Well, I would definitely disagree with that. Mary Gentle’s work, for example, definitely shows that women can “do gritty”. There are also events that happen in Swarmthief that are definitely gritty too!
DJM: Oh yes – much to my amusement my (then) publisher accidentally subverted my whole conceit by putting a large, pink cameo in the centre of the “Talisker” cover art! LOL. I didn’t really mind because the artwork was fabulous (Mark Salwowski) but I did get a ribbing about it off some of my male friends.
Anyway, by the time I moved to TOR (six years later) I think there had been a shift in both my perceptions and the publishers. Perhaps I simply had more confidence in myself, but when my Editor said he wanted to put the books out under Deborah J. Miller, I found I didn’t really mind.
Hobbit: That’s a good point. What you’re saying then is that those prejudices that you envisaged when you started being published are not there now? Or that your perception of the situation has changed?
DJM: A bit of both really; it is incredibly difficult for women to survive in the genre and achieve a long-term career, but then of course, it’s difficult for men too.
I guess if anything (and this is purely an observation) women are not so great at promoting themselves. Diffidence and publishing/marketing are not natural bedfellows. You have to go out into the marketplace with at least a veneer of great confidence. Sadly, there’s a lot of hype these days and it’s all too easy to fall by the wayside as the next “big thing” comes along.
I’m not whinging by any means, all I’m saying is that you’ve got to be pretty tough.
Despite there being more women in the Fantasy genre now, I think my initial prejudices have been proven correct – for example, one reviewer felt duty-bound to comment on the relationships in Swarmthief’s Dance in a way that they would not if the author was male. People expect your gender to influence the work far more than it probably does. This holds doubly true for me as I write Fantasy of the “Epic” variety, which necessitates a lot of entertaining fight scenes and big swords.
However, it is hopeful that things will continue to improve with the advent of the recent generation of brilliant women writers such as Susannah Clarke, Steph Swainston, Justina Robson, Gwyneth Jones – all amazing, although few have ventured into “Sword & Sorcery” territory.
Hobbit: I’d agree with you there, as well as repeat my Mary Gentle reference.
Now that you are under a newly-published name, I guess it must be a new thrill to see your “real” name (if that is what it is!) on a book cover.
DJM: Yes, it is. Although I miss being named after a beer!
Hobbit: LOL. About your personal style. I read a comment about you on the Internet that said something like Miller Lau – a very Scottish writer. I thought it was intriguing because I didn’t know what it meant. Any ideas yourself?
DJM: Hmm, I imagine that was because The Last Clansman is, at first glance anyway, traditionally Scottish (with a big “S”) I did try to bring actual Scottishness to the table. Someone commented that my characters were recognisably modern Scots in the Celtic inspired world, which surprisingly, hadn’t been done before (to my knowledge).
I also hope that it was because of the dialogue; I don’t just mean Malky’s dialect here, I mean the very natural easy rhythms of Scots narrative.
Hobbit: That now seems to make more sense to me now. OK, let’s get into influences.
You’ve named in the past books by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Terry Pratchett, Iain Banks and David Gemmell (who has written a lovely comment on the front of Swarmthief) as good places to start reading – any more to add to that list lately?
DJM: I would still point to those authors for anyone who is just beginning to read Fantasy (or SF) because the power of their work does not date. New authors come and go, but books like Mists of Avalon, Mort, The Bridge and Legend will always be classics of the genre. For me, they all share similar strengths – that of brilliant, naturalistic characterisation and dialogue.
Hobbit: So, if it had to be one, (as a reader and a writer): Plot or characterisation?
DJM: For me personally, characterisation every time – strong characters which the reader can care for, and empathize with, can rescue the most linear of plots. A great plot, which no one engages with, is just a waste of hard work.
Hobbit: I’m interested that you’ve mentioned The Bridge – “Iain Banks” as a mainstream writer and not “Iain M Banks” the SF writer, (though the same person) as an influence. Was that deliberate? Care to explain further?
DJM: I just seem to prefer Iain Banks to Iain M. For me personally, high-concept SF always feels a bit impersonal. I never empathise with any of the characters in the same way and sometimes I feel they lose out to the ‘big idea’. I know many people enjoy that sense of grandeur that space opera has – but it’s just not for me.
Going back to what I said earlier about the natural easy rhythms of Scots narrative, it’s certainly something I admire in his work and probably why I prefer his ‘mainstream’ fiction.
Anyway, how could you not love Banks’s “mainstream” stuff?! Espedair Street is an all time favourite of mine.
And as for other authors, I can’t believe I didn’t mention Stephen King! I am a massive fan of his work. I find it really bizarre that he has been given so little respect from the literary world in the past. (Hey, but I won’t start on about literary snobbery because we’ll be here all day! It’s kinda a pet peeve!)
And (IMHO) his most powerful work is even not lauded enough by his fans – that is, Hearts in Atlantis. Anyone who has not read this book, I urge you to rush out and buy it! Forget the pale imitation that was the movie – it is the most poignant lament for the loss of innocence of the Vietnam generation I have ever read. As it says on many of SK’s books, “Words are his power.” True.
Hobbit: Agreed. When he’s on a roll, he’s a very talented writer.
DJM: Also, another Stephen – Stephen Donaldson. The only writer to make me actually cry and feel bereaved (won’t say when, but I’m pretty sure many SFFWorlders will know whereof I speak [wink]) – apart from Hermann Hesse at the end of Narziss and Goldmund. (non-genre.)
Hobbit: Favourite character (this week!)
DJM: Thomas Covenant. It’s amazing that wherever writers gather and the subject of TC comes up, the discussion goes along similar lines “Man, he was such a miserable b*****d.” “Yeah, but we really suffered with him!”
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant were the only books that I would go into the store and pester the living daylights out of the assistant until they checked on the release date, again. I just couldn’t wait for the next installment. It was the same sense of anticipation for me then that I know many, many George R R Martin fans have been suffering/enjoying waiting for Feast of Crows.
I had the pleasure of seeing Stephen Donaldson at a signing in Edinburgh for the release of The Runes of Earth and I gave him a copy of Talisker, which I inscribed, “Look what you made me do!” He seemed quite bemused by this but he accepted the book graciously. One of my friends pointed out that he might never read it, just pop it into a drawer somewhere ‘ to which I responded that I don’t really care – just the knowledge that SD has a copy of my book is an outrageous thrill to me! You see, I’m just an old fan-girl still, no question!
Hobbit: LOL. It’s always good to hear that writers can be fans too! Whatever people think of the books, it’s undeniable that, certainly in the UK, Donaldson’s influence in the late 1970’s, if not now, was incredibly important in getting Fantasy into the mainstream.
Moving on, you’ve always had an interest in Science fiction, fantasy and horror?
But you write Fantasy. Any particular reason?
DJM: To be honest, I never even considered any other genre. I write what I love.
I started reading Marvel Comics when I was about nine or ten. At the same time I started reading writers like R E Howard, (encouraged by the fabulous comic-book versions drawn by the late John Buscema), H Rider Haggard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Edgar Allen Poe and Michael Moorcock. It never occurred to me that these writers were not contemporary either with the time (70’s) or, one another. All I knew was that I loved the otherness, that classic sense of wonder in their books. Science Fiction came slightly later for me – but even then, it was the more Science Fantasy writers like Zelazny and Herbert, rather than hard science types like Clarke or Asimov.
If someone had asked me what I read at that time, I doubt I would have said Fantasy – there was little self-awareness about the genre then, at least that’s my memory of it.
Also, I was reading really erratically, anything that caught my attention. I remember hearing the lyrics of a song by Styx (yes, I am that old!) which were:“ageless and timeless as Dorian Gray” and I thought, I wonder who Dorian Gray is? Luckily, my older sister was a fellow book-worm and she knew. In fact, she bought me the book, which introduced me to the wonders of Oscar Wilde (Thanks Lou!)
Hobbit: How did you get that first break? Luck, fate, bribery or sheer determination?
DJM: Well, I guess it could have been a combination – although only if beer counts as bribery! I suppose I was lucky in that my first novel landed on the desk of an editor who liked it a lot. That was John Jarrold, who, at that time was creating the Earthlight list for Simon & Schuster. Sadly, the list was cancelled just as it was establishing itself, which was a real shame, because during its brief lifetime it launched quite a few new authors.
Perhaps you should add “patience” to the list in your question, Hobbit! Writers need patience! Before JJ accepted my manuscript, it was “under consideration” by another UK publisher for eleven months. It’s extremely frustrating when that happens but, polite persistence is the key – and while you are waiting, press on with your next project.
Hobbit: Patience is something that reviewers and readers need too, I guess. Though I’m not a writer myself, talks with writers make me think I agree with what you’re saying about perseverance when you’re writing (and sometimes when you’re reading!).
You’ve also been an editor as well as a writer? How difficult is it / was it to be both? How difficult is it to separate the two roles?
DJM: I was only ever an Editor in my previous incarnation as a Technical Author – yes, it really is as dull as it sounds. I wrote computer manuals and training materials for a car insurance company.
“Wake up, Hobbit!” (Pokes Hobbit with a stick). “Someone has to write manuals don’t they?”
Hobbit: Well – yes, they do. How else would I gain something to rest my coffee mug on if it wasn’t for my computer manual? [grins]
Moving on, as an editor and/or a writer, any advice for first writer?
DJM: Well, I’ve said this before but it’s always going to be true so . . .
Keep writing. It’s no good to be potentially brilliant.
Oh, and commit to your ideas – follow them through to the end rather than breaking off to chase the next big idea; there are many such writers out there, who may be great, great writers but sadly, will never see publication because they never finish a project. Someone once suggested to me that it was fear of failure that caused this behaviour but I’m not sure it’s so deep-rooted, just a basic lack of commitment to the work. (And to be clear – this is not necessarily true of other areas of their lives – I am not making personal criticism here).
Hobbit: I heard something interesting recently in that editors often feel that it is not the first book, but often the second or third book that is the test for an author. The first book (or series) is one which has been germinating for what is often years; it’s when that is published that the writer suddenly gets writer’s block, nerves or a dearth of ideas.
I’m not saying that about you, but I thought it was interesting. Is it something you’ve heard, or even agree with?
DJM: Yes, I have heard this – I think it may even be true for a few writers. When you start out, naturally getting published is your ambition, your life’s dream even (it was mine!) You are so focused on that end that you never really consider what happens thereafter.
It’s not just a case of waking up one morning with no new ideas (although that would be horrible). It is everything else which goes with writing – the business of writing, if you like – no one sits a new author down and explains the finer points of marketing or gives them a manual on how to present themselves.
As for selling your rights, that’s a whole minefield of it’s own – although of course, a good agent will be able to steer you through. Of course, there are tons and tons of “How to Write” books – but not much else which explains what happens next, probably because of its infinite variations.
(There is one exception but I’m not sure it’s still in print – An Author’s Guide to Publishing by Michael Legat. I have an old, tattered copy still somewhere – although I’ve chucked out most other “how to write” books I bought.)
Hobbit: Please tell me more about Swarmthief’s Dance. As I’ve said earlier, Swarmthief is a new departure for you.
DJM: Swarmthief has actually been ‘bubbling under’ in my consciousness for about eight years. I wrote a short story called Snoot and that now forms part of the Prologue for SD. When I wrote the story I intended it to be complete in itself, but afterwards there was always a nagging doubt in my mind – what exactly would happen to Snoot when he grew up? What would he be like? So when I decided to expand the idea it felt almost like a little gift to myself to be allowed to go back and pick up his story.
Hobbit: Snoot’s story is quite an intriguing one. Reading it as a prologue in the book made the beginning really quite different and a memorable start.
DJM: Initially, I had some difficulties establishing Vivreki’s character because, in the early part of the story, he’s arrogant and not easily likable. I’ve always liked him of course, but then, I like all of my own characters. He was designed to have a ‘glamour’ about him that attracts people to him even when they do dislike him. It was a difficult conundrum, and it wasn’t until I read a biography of Harry Houdini that I could really come to grips with the idea. Houdini was a fascinating man; an egotistical self-publicist with a highly intelligent, questioning mind.
I realised that I’d never read a Fantasy before where a character can do conjuring/illusions (I’m not saying there isn’t such a book out there, merely that I haven’t read it!). The only thing I could bring to mind was that brilliant film, Willow – with Warwick Davies and his ‘pig in a blanket’ illusion.
The ideas of illusion and misdirection and also the stage-presence of magicians began to fascinate me. (I’ve even learned to do the cup and ball trick in a rather amateurish way!) Eventually, I decided that Vivreki would be able to do a few magic tricks – initially to enhance his attraction to the ladies – and this drew me into the idea of examining magic, sense of wonder, ‘real magic’ (in the story) and belief.
I’m not saying I’ve reached any conclusions [laughs] but just that the sometimes-simple things which cause a chain reaction of belief, and the power that they give to certain people, made/makes for an interesting theme.
Hobbit: Takes a step back “I like all of my own characters”. Even the badly-behaved or just plain bad ones?
DJM: Especially the bad ones! [Blushes]
The bad ones are always easy for me to write. Seriously, no one considers them self to be actually evil because, even if they are doing awful things, they always have a rational for their actions in their own mind. Of course, their logic is often deeply flawed, skewed, or even insane, and so their actions are considered to be evil by moral consensus.
Hobbit: I must admit I do like the way that your characters are not wholly ‘good’ or ‘bad’. There are characters in Swarmthief like that. I loved the way that, for example, you portrayed Cion Gezezi as a person who has a bad side to his character, yet you could also justify his malicious actions. At one point I almost felt sorry for him!
The gods are also an interesting idea – though they do have their good points, they can also be vindictive, squabbling, petty – sounded just like a weekend in the Hobbit household! [grins]. More seriously, it reminded me of the old Greek ‘gods’ myths and legends – even things like Harryhausen’s film Clash of the Titans, based on the old myths. Intentional?
DJM: Yes. This continues on from what I said above, but with Gods, I feel they would operate without the strictures of mortal society – they are ‘amoral’ rather than good or bad – so I imagine them to have a kind of ‘hands off’ approach to mankind. I think they are (in Swarmthief’s Dance) rather distant, self-serving and petty. I certainly had in mind the kind of Gods who would consider worship their due from mortals – even though they are dependant on belief – rather than the Christian idea of a loving, deeply involved deity.
It’s funny you should mention the old Ray Harryhausen films because I used to love all that mythic stuff when I was a kid – who needs CGI eh? (Although I am so looking forward to Peter Jackson’s King Kong.) Perhaps they were more influential than I realized.
Hobbit: I liked the idea of the Swarm, too. It is a very important aspect of the book. Where did you get the idea from? Why dragonflies?
DJM: I remember specifically watching a BBC documentary about ten years ago about insects. At the moment they are doing a whole David Attenborough series called “Life in the Undergrowth” which is fantastic, but this was just a single episode thing. It just blew me away.
I remember thinking that any writer would be hard-pressed to invent something more bizarre and deadly than the wasp that lays its eggs inside a living caterpillar. When the eggs hatch, the larvae eat the host from inside – wonderful eh? Aliens are among us – we just need to look a bit more closely!
Dragonflies just fitted the bill perfectly; they are majestic and streamlined. Also, apparently they would still be aerodynamic at a massive size, unlike a bee. I considered using things like beetles originally, because I love beetles, but I decided they would be just too terrifying on a huge scale and give the Bakkujasi priests a too-severe aspect.
Hobbit: I thought that it was an attention-grabbing idea that definitely gave the book an otherworldliness.
And it is the first part of a trilogy. I know the next book is called Swarmthief’s Treason, and that you’re writing it at the moment.
DJM: I’m story arcing for the first time. The Last Clansman-books were, to a certain extent, self-contained, but this is one large story. It presents its own challenges and I’m learning as I go. One review I’ve had complained that Book One was too short and seemed to serve as a curtain-raiser for the larger story to come. This did puzzle me a bit as I thought the first books of trilogies always read a bit like that – hopefully, if the reader has enjoyed the first one they will be anticipating the second one, I thought that was the idea!
Perhaps the reviewer rather meant it is shorter than the average “epic” fantasy but I can make no apologies for that; a story finds its own natural length and rhythm.
Hobbit: Are you an author that plans books out, in detail, in advance, or one with a rough outline that will adapt and evolve as you write?
DJM: I try to plan as much as I can. When you submit an idea for the publisher to commission it’s a different ball game to sending in your beloved first novel as we discussed earlier. When your Editor decides he likes your idea, he then has to ‘sell’ that idea to the rest of his team, and this is what he usually does before they make you an offer. If you can give as much information in your synopsis and/or samples to interest and excite people then you are helping your editor tremendously (which is always a good thing). However, having said that, the publishers are well aware of the nature of writers! They know that your ideas will change and evolve as you go along so there’s always a bit of give and take.
Hobbit: Although you’ve clearly got your hands full with the present trilogy, would you like to branch out into something non-genre? You’ve said it must be something you love.
DJM: Well, I’m always having bizarre ideas so who knows? I’m toying with the idea of a fantasy/horror – but I can’t allow myself the luxury of thinking about it too deeply. For the next year or so, Swarmthief deserves all of my attention.
Hobbit: Well, I can say, on reading, that the attention it has accrued has clearly been worth it. Thank you, Debbie, for your time. It has been fun! I wish you well with your new venture.
DJM: You’re welcome, Hobbit. Look forward to catching up with you at Eastercon!
