Am I the only one who instinctively recoils from non sec-world fantasy?

[AlexIsNotARobot]

A Darker Shade of Magic by Victoria Schwab (kind of, sort of)

This one is on my tbr!

 

[Contrarius]

This one is on my tbr!

Me too. I think this one'll be next after I finish my current book.

 

[AlexIsNotARobot]

Me too. I think this one'll be next after I finish my current book.

I might just do the same.

 

[budgie]

I concur with the above. I want fantasy characters to have hokey fantasy names. That's part of the fun. At least in historical fiction they hav anachronistic and unfamiliar names. 'Mike' just doesn't work for me...

 

[AlexIsNotARobot]

I concur with the above. I want fantasy characters to have hokey fantasy names. That's part of the fun. At least in historical fiction they hav anachronistic and unfamiliar names. 'Mike' just doesn't work for me...

Not sure what this is replying to but I'll agree. Character names need to fit the genre and setting. In Fantasy, even small changes to ordinary names can set the mood. So, Mikhail instead of Mike.

 

[jason10mm]

One of the things that doesn't work for me in the book is that the world is, in many ways, presented as a secondary fantasy world but is actually a post-apocalyptic version of our own world with magic.

Yeah, this is very hit or miss for me as well. Aren't the Wheel of Time books basically this scenario (like the aformentioned Shannara books)? Larry Correia has also done this with his forthcoming "Son of the Black Sword" book. At least I THINK it is a magical post-apoc world, he buries the "Old Earth" references so deeply I'm not actually sure it is earth (might be a colony on another planet, for example). I didn't have a map on my ARC copy so it may be readily apparent due to geography once the published book comes out.

Anyhoo, it can be fun to have these post-tech references, I enjoyed some of Lawrences references, like

Spoiler

the vault computer

in the first book but others like

Spoiler

the necromancers

just left me confused. I guess it depends on whether or not there is actual magic in the world or if "magic" is just some form of high technology and how well that is handled.

Dan Abnett did a pretty good alternate magic world in Triumff but the writing style was a little off-putting.

 

[cohelian]

The setting isn't so important to me, but I do get your point. But in the end what makes us love or hate a book are the characters in it and they are always based on existing human fundamentals. I've read a lot of sci-fi and fiction and have yet to see any author write an alien character POV that doesn't resemble humanity. Understandable of course.

 

[Ochos]

I'm not keen on the term "urban fantasy" or "steampunk" I mean what the hell does it really mean? I don't really like Vampire/werewolf books, and yes ESPECIALLY Twilight! Although i'm in no way tarring them all with that particular brush. Some books with "magic portals" aren't that bad, let's not invent another sub category by calling them Portal fantasy. If a book is set in our world, so be it, as long as it's a good read. I've just started the Dresden files and i'm liking them so far, and one of my favourite books ever, is Gaiman's Neverwhere. I find that if I enjoy the book as a whole, I can forgive a portal or two.

 

[KatG]

I'm not keen on the term "urban fantasy" or "steampunk" I mean what the hell does it really mean? I don't really like Vampire/werewolf books, and yes ESPECIALLY Twilight! Although i'm in no way tarring them all with that particular brush. Some books with "magic portals" aren't that bad, let's not invent another sub category by calling them Portal fantasy. If a book is set in our world, so be it, as long as it's a good read. I've just started the Dresden files and i'm liking them so far, and one of my favourite books ever, is Gaiman's Neverwhere. I find that if I enjoy the book as a whole, I can forgive a portal or two.

Portal fantasy was a term that came to be used in the 1960's, so we didn't really invent it new. A portal fantasy is one where main characters travel through a portal via fantastical means from one world to another, a very old tradition in fantasy stories. A multiverse fantasy or a multiverse science fiction story is one where characters can travel through multiple worlds/alternate universes by either fantastical or scientific means, depending on whether it's fantasy or SF. It's again a very old tradition in both genres, and it's simply a reference point term.

Steampunk was a term invented by SFF author K.W. Jeter in the 1980's, in reference to cyberpunk, which he also wrote, to describe a type of alternate historical fantasy and science fiction that he, Tim Powers, James P. Blaylock and some others were writing in the late 1970's and 1980's (when they hung around with Phillip K. Dick in his later years,) including Jeter' novels Morlock Night and Infernal Devices. It was initially a literary sub-genre movement, essentially, of a small group of authors doing something specific and in common (sometimes having cross-over characters.) They created alternate historical stories during the steam era which included anachronistic devices for that age -- robots, tanks, futuristic weapons, time travel machines -- and sometimes changes to the historical record. The steampunk fantasy ones also included fantastic elements such as magic. It was essentially inspired by the works of H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. The initial steampunk works, therefore, were not a new thing SFF authors had never done before, but they had some very specific elements with Jeter et. al. having similar styles and themes (as we discussed how movements work in the grimdark thread.)

However, the term steampunk soon stretched into a cross sub-category in SF, fantasy and horror, and then went beyond literature into a stylistic aesthetic involving fashion, cosplay, toys, movies, furnishings, etc. So you're not getting rid of the term anytime soon. It's simply, like portal fantasy, a reference description of the involvement of certain elements in the story world.
Jeter is also often credited with coining the term urban fantasy, again in the 1980's. It simply means fantasy stories set in contemporary Earth urban settings, (no vampires or werewolves are required,) and the use of the term was meant to describe and distinguish again works of fantasy that Jeter, Powers, Blaylock, Emma Bull, Charles de Lint, and many others were doing from the secondary world, pre-industrial epic fantasy and D&D novels. Urban fantasy was not a literary movement, just a description, but it became so popular as a reference point that it became synonymous with the older term contemporary fantasy, even though many contemporary fantasy stories weren't set in cities.

The use of the term urban fantasy died off a fair amount in the 1990's. In the early oughts, the number of contemporary fantasy titles increased and a number of them became bestselling hits. This coincided with an expansion in horror titles and paranormal romance, which also usually used contemporary Earth settings, often urban ones. This expansion in contemporary fantasy initially got frequently called supernatural fantasy but others brought up the old term urban fantasy and that became the one that once again stuck, even though a number of the series didn't take place in urban settings (including Twilight which is usually just called YA romantic fantasy.)

Secondary world/epic fantasy (both pre and post-industrial,) historical/alt history fantasy, steampunk, contemporary/urban fantasy, comic fantasy, dark fantasy, fantasy horror, grimdark, portal/multiverse fantasy, futuristic/post-apocalyptic fantasy -- these are sub-categories of fantasy fiction. They are all done by setting. They are just descriptors, reference points to describe the setting that the particular fantasy work has. Which, as this thread shows, is important to some readers. As long as people find them to be useful reference points, they are not going to go away. They may fade in use, and sometimes like urban fantasy they come back into use. But fantasy fans always find terms to describe the setting of the stories. (Whereas SF fans use terms to describe the type of science involved in the SF story, which can include setting.)

For instance, we just recently got the term gaslight/gaslamp fantasy circulating in regular use to describe historical/alt historical fantasy fiction that takes place in the Regency to Edwardian eras of Earth history or in secondary worlds where the world setting corresponds to those eras when gas started being used (such as our pal Sue Boulton's novel Oracle.) The term is credited to comics author and artist Kaja Foglio, as a description of her and husband Phil's comics series Girl Genius in 2000, set in an alternate Victorian England. (Although I'm sure gaslight was used earlier elsewhere.) Girl Genius is technically what would traditionally have been called steampunk, but according to Foglio, they didn't feel the series was very "punk" in nature and there was another comics title already called Steampunk, so she called their series a gaslamp series instead. The term migrated and mutated into fantasy fiction and paranormal romance. Gaslight/gaslamp fantasy stories have the particular setting of steampunk stories, but may or may not have the anachronistic SF devices in the story.

So what the folk in this thread really want is not just secondary world fantasy, as a secondary world can be built of any number of sub-settings, including futuristic space ones. What they want is non-portal/multiverse pre-industrial secondary world fantasy stories, possibly also limited to epic in scope (no mystery stories.) Now, we may end up with a term for pre-industrial secondary world fantasy that is much less clunky sounding but still conveys the setting. Sword & sorcery sort of did, but it also usually involves an adventure setting and isn't limited to secondary worlds. So start coming up with a setting-related term, start using it a lot and it may catch on. Then when you say, how can anyone like anything other than barbarian world fantasy, or whatever, people will know exactly what you are referring to. Because fantasy fans like their settings.

 

[Sean Flanders]

I'd argue that urban fantasy covers all contemporary fantasy (at least if it's set in a developed country), whether or not the story's set in a city. Even if it's not set in an urban location, it's still set in the urban era, this relatively recent part of human history when living in cities has become the norm, and rural living the exception, when for most of humanity's existence, it was vice versa.

Besides, the term "contemporary fantasy" can be confusing, since it can also be used to describe fantasy stories written in contemporary times.

 

[Contrarius]

I'd argue that urban fantasy covers all contemporary fantasy....

I think both terms -- urban and contemporary -- are confusing. We need a better one. Or maybe multiple better ones, since there are distinct types of fantasy fiction set within our contemporary world. So start thinking!

 

[KatG]

Besides, the term "contemporary fantasy" can be confusing, since it can also be used to describe fantasy stories written in contemporary times.

That's why we didn't use the term "modern fantasy" because modern fantasy meant ALL fantasy written in the post-WWII to present era, when category markets developed in various countries, as opposed to older SFF stories -- essentially 20th and 21st century writing. Contemporary fantasy is modern fantasy set in a contemporary Earth setting. But of course, time marches on, so the contemporary fantasy moniker bestowed on titles in the 1950's and 1960's isn't so contemporary anymore, in terms of setting. That may be one of the reasons that urban fantasy became the common synonym.

These things are not that organized. Someone uses the word as a suggested reference point, gives it a definition or partial one, again related to setting in fantasy, and then if other people start using it, it becomes more and more the reference point term. When you see the publishers using it, in marketing and book covers, it's established, at least for the moment.

 

[Duckett]

I am the opposite, most of what I read either explicitly takes place on Earth or might as well do so (it should be added that I practically only read fantasy fiction). However, I read little urban fantasy, and my preferences run along the lines of Swords & Sorcery, like Conan, Kane, and the Eternal Champion, which usually takes place on Earth in one age or another.

 

[AlexIsNotARobot]

I'm not keen on the term "urban fantasy" or "steampunk" I mean what the hell does it really mean? I don't really like Vampire/werewolf books, and yes ESPECIALLY Twilight! Although i'm in no way tarring them all with that particular brush. Some books with "magic portals" aren't that bad, let's not invent another sub category by calling them Portal fantasy. If a book is set in our world, so be it, as long as it's a good read. I've just started the Dresden files and i'm liking them so far, and one of my favourite books ever, is Gaiman's Neverwhere. I find that if I enjoy the book as a whole, I can forgive a portal or two.

It's difficult to have straightforward categories anymore because the YA/Romance/Twilight stuff has infiltrated them all. I've read some good Steampunk; The Affinity Bridge by George Mann and The Wake of the Dragon by Jaq D. Hawkins come to mind, but a lot of what I've seen is warmed over Romance with an airship in the background. Urban Fantasy all too often points to the same, though the actual definition of the genre could apply to some interesting concepts. I like my vampires and werewolves old school, i.e. monsters and not teenage masturbation fantasies. Magic portals can be done well. Besides Gaiman, Stephen King's 11/22/1963 come to mind.

Basically, if the 'real' world is buried well enough, a story can read like a completely fantastical place. Planet of the Apes did this in the original movie, leaving a few clues but not actually revealing it until the end. One good series, The Goblin Series by Jaq D. Hawkins, does this and you don't learn the 'real' place until the second book. The world has changed too much to make it relevant.

Alternate worlds are part of the fun of Fantasy, but it's hard to find a good one these days. Too many authors trying too hard, and that includes trad published.

 

[Lordwalker]

I don't want to rehash this conversation by starting a brand new topic, but I have a question or two.

I'm not usually a fan of the big Urban Fantasy series like the Iron Druid Chronicles or others in which magical or fantastic beasts are no longer in the shadows and humor seems to be a big part of those series. Mostly I read secondary world fantasy or science fiction. However, I have recently enjoyed a few contemporary fantasy novels like The Library at Mount Char and Nightwise. And of course Neverwhere is a old favorite.

Can anyone recommend novels or series set on Earth during a recent time period where magic is still mysterious and frightening and is not the norm. Where running into a demon/vampire/werewolf/ghost by the normal human is VERY abnormal. And where the main character isn't constantly cracking wise or otherwise forcing humor into the story?

Thanks

 

[intensityxx]

Just a brief comment from my perspective, having read various kinds of urban fantasy over a couple decades, beginning with Neverwhere and the de Lint books, then on from there - though I can't claim to be especially widely-read and I'm probably not expert enough to offer you specific recommendations. Aside from Neverwhere, which not only had brilliant ideas, it was darkly humorous, the humor such as Iron Druid displays is a rather recent addition to dark/urban fantasy. If you're not happy with current offerings, you might find what you're looking for in books from a decade or more ago.

Or else possibly something like Mike Carey, Phil Rickman, Sergei Lukyanenko, or Charlie Huston might appeal to you, or something from the horror side of fantasy.

ETA: Stephen King, Dan Simmons, Robert M. McCammon?

 

[Contrarius]

Or else possibly something like Mike Carey, Phil Rickman, Sergei Lukyanenko, or Charlie Huston might appeal to you, or something from the horror side of fantasy.

I haven't read Rickman (will have to check him out!) but I second recs for Carey, Lukyanenko, and Huston. They all have humor, but it's black humor. And in that vein you could also try Richard Kadrey, though his black humor is more wild-and-crazy.

 

[KatG]

I'm not usually a fan of the big Urban Fantasy series like the Iron Druid Chronicles or others in which magical or fantastic beasts are no longer in the shadows and humor seems to be a big part of those series. Mostly I read secondary world fantasy or science fiction. However, I have recently enjoyed a few contemporary fantasy novels like The Library at Mount Char and Nightwise. And of course Neverwhere is a old favorite.

Can anyone recommend novels or series set on Earth during a recent time period where magic is still mysterious and frightening and is not the norm. Where running into a demon/vampire/werewolf/ghost by the normal human is VERY abnormal. And where the main character isn't constantly cracking wise or otherwise forcing humor into the story?
Thanks

Well, but in the Iron Druid Chronicles, the magical beasties are in the shadows and mysterious. Most of the world does not know that they are there. It's just that those who are magical beasties, gods or magic users know that they are there. With mysterious set-ups, it tends to be about characters who are in the hidden world and characters who stumble into the hidden world. And there are still probably more of those in contemporary fantasy than there are of alternate world contemporary fantasies where all the supernatural stuff is out in the open and everybody knows about it.

The wisecracking that is common in contemporary fantasy comes from the fact that these series and books are suspense thrillers and murder mysteries, and so they share the (somewhat but not exclusively American) noir wisecracking gumshoe style. It's essentially writing a Mickey Spillane or Travis McGee novel and adding vampires, ghosts, witches and/or angels to it. And Neverwhere also adheres to that style, albeit in the British version, and has a ton of wisecracking to it. It's a darkly comic contemporary fantasy. Nightwise also has the wisecracking gumshoe. So with recommendations, it may be a bit more that sometimes you're going to like the humor and other times you are not, which makes it a bit tricky. But besides what is recommended here so far, for hidden supernatural and more dramatic, you might try some of the following:

Ben Aaronovich's PC Peter Grant series (British) -- This bestselling one does have some wisecracking but because it's a British police procedural and very much in the same vein as Neverwhere, it may serve
Emma Bull -- The War for the Oaks (quite famous) and Finder
Elizabeth Bear -- Promethean Age series
Clive Barker -- Galilee
James P. Blaylock -- Christian trilogy (very famous)
Tim Powers -- Last Call trilogy (very famous,) Three Days to Never
Keith Donohue -- The Stolen Child
John Crowley -- Little, Big (very famous)
Neil Gaiman -- American Gods, Anansai Boys, The Ocean at the End of the Lane
Sean Stewart -- Galveston, Mockingbird
G. Willow Wilson -- Alif the Unseen (some wisecracking)
Lev Grossman -- The Magicians series (also now a t.v. series)
Jim C. Hines -- Magic Ex Libris series (there is some wisecracking but magic they are trying to keep hidden)
Cassandra Clare -- Mortal Instruments series (is YA)
Tad Williams -- Bobby Dollar series
David MItchell -- Slade House
Ann A. McDonald -- The Oxford Inheritance

 

[Contrarius]

The wisecracking that is common in contemporary fantasy comes from the fact that these series and books are suspense thrillers and murder mysteries, and so they share the (somewhat but not exclusively American) noir wisecracking gumshoe style.

I'm interested by the split between the mystery/thriller/Spillane types of "contemporary" fantasy and the non-mystery/thriller types. For instance, you might put Iron Druid and Rivers of London and Charlie Huston on one side of the line -- but books like Harry Potter and The Magicians (and the Library at Mount Char? haven't read it yet) and maybe The Grey Horse (yes, I know, not exactly contemporary) would go on the other. Perhaps they draw more from fairy tale and secondary-world fantasy tropes than from myster/thriller tropes? Hmmm. That hypothesis needs more thought. Anyway, I mostly think of the first type (the mystery/thrillers) as "urban fantasy", and the second type as "contemporary fantasy" -- even though, technically speaking, the distinction between those words is meaningless. We need better categories!

But besides what is recommended here so far, for hidden supernatural and more dramatic, you might try some of the following:

Interesting list. I need to check a bunch of those out!

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, it is hard to do a serialized line of books and not have "supernatural stuff" pop up all the time. The humor thing is usually just a facet of the main character to give them some personality.

You may like Charles Stross' "Laundry Files". It has a grimmer tone with black humor (and droll office humor almost like a Dilbert cartoon) but overall is pretty grim and the supernatural stuff is deliberately kept from the general populace.

You may also like stuff like James Rollins (his adventure stuff like "Subterranean", I've not read his Sigma Force books) where the books are not serialized, so they can have a new mystery with new characters each book. "Relic" by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child is another example. Or early Dean Koontz. Basically have to cross over into the "horror" genre as they will probably have a purer style, less serialization, and really scary bad guys they only need to use once. As soon as an author starts to create a shared universe over multiple books you are gonna see a lot of recurring stuff and more reliance on the tropes of whatever genre in order to appeal to the audience. For example, there is no way a James Bond/Mitch Rapp novel will have a vampire pop up for just one book. The regular readers would revolt! For better or worse, book series rely on delivering to a set of expectations.

Short story collections are another option. Plenty of them and the short story format probably lends itself better to a low humor, "in the shadows" supernatural element with low impact on normal folks as you don't need to sustain the world or the reader for the same length of time.