Dark Tower

******************MORE SPOILERS******************


So a reward from the Tower itself then? For always putting it first?
 
saintjon said:
******************MORE SPOILERS******************


So a reward from the Tower itself then? For always putting it first?
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yeah it's a reward but not because of Roland's determination. I think it's more because he did a little better this time. Maybe developed emotions and actually caring about his friends. An example is when
he bargained with Mordred for Oy's life
.

The whole goal of trying to reach the top of the Tower is a probable representation of man's obsession with finding the meaning and purpose of life and God when in fact, life is all about the journey. Maybe we should give up this pursuit (I know everyone wastes a lot of time finding out what the meaning of life is) and live our lives as best we can towards happiness and treating others with kindness.

Another possible reason why he fails is because, after he saved the tower by saving Stephen King and the rose, he still selfishly pursues his goal of reaching the top. The Crimson King could not enter the door and destroy or control the tower was because he needed some sort of sigul, ie Roland's guns. So when Roland continued on with his personal quest, he was also risking the destruction of the tower.

Question:
In this next iteration, does he have to save Stephen King and the rose all over again? Are the beams in danger of breaking again? I guess, my question is summed up with does he have to go through all that again with a few minor differences? (he has the Horn of Eld and maybe treat his friends a bit better).
 
My feeling is that Roland will repeat the quest and be presented with the same obstacles, the same challenges. He will be faced with whether or not he is to save Jake in THE GUNSLINGER. The choices he makes will affect the challenges he faces, I think. He will still make some mistakes, but the big ones, the really big ones, like Jake, will affect what he finds at the Tower and what he does when he arrives at the Tower.
 
I kinda see a problem with this. Mainly because he won't remember what mistakes he made so how is he to avoid it?
 
True, Roland soon forgets the whole journey, but something made him pick up the Horn, or something he did allowed him to have the horn as we first see him on the desert.

Perhaps this same thing allows Roland to act differently. Maybe something in his subconcious.
 
Just to speculate, do you guys think it would have made a huge difference in Roland had opted the other way as pertains to Jake in the first book, and therefore missed out on the palaver with Walter?

That would have had resounding consequences for later on in the story, since umm.... "other Jake" did provide some very helpful items in book 3.
 
saintjon said:
Just to speculate, do you guys think it would have made a huge difference in Roland had opted the other way as pertains to Jake in the first book, and therefore missed out on the palaver with Walter?

That would have had resounding consequences for later on in the story, since umm.... "other Jake" did provide some very helpful items in book 3.
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Yes I think it would be a huge difference! I think the story would end right there! By choosing Jake instead of the man in black, it probably means that reaching the tower is not all that important. Quest over!
 
i wish i could get at least book 5 in pb where i am. well i suppose i can if i order it from england or the usa or even canada but if i dont order it from france its at least three times as much. i hate that. i have finished the first four and i might have to wait until the end of next year before i can order the pb on amazon.fr . i wish i knew ppl in similar situations that i could talk to.

but so far i love the dark tower series even though it isnt typical king i did read The Talisman and that is the only other book by him that i could relate the style to. ps i loved the talisman as well.
 
saintjon said:
Just to speculate, do you guys think it would have made a huge difference in Roland had opted the other way as pertains to Jake in the first book, and therefore missed out on the palaver with Walter?

That would have had resounding consequences for later on in the story, since umm.... "other Jake" did provide some very helpful items in book 3.
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It's hard to say,from having to start his quest again were we first entered the tale it seems that this time round that Roland's mistakes were made from that point onwards.If he had saved Jake then maybe he wouldnt have been able to stop the pusher,and it would have taken longer to catch up with Walter also this could have prevented him from drawing Eddie & Susannah so his ka-tet would have been different
 
i am dying to get the last three books now. gonna buy them in the usa when we are on vac there on the 19dec. and many others i cant get here. i hope the end of the series is as good as the first four books.
 
Some pre-ending conversation first:
There were some hards hitting emotional moments in this book. I don't get emotional much - I think I shed one or two tears at a few phases in Hobb's books, but that's about the only time I can think of in around the last 10 years a books got me that emmotional. But when Eddie had his last words, I gushed. Unashamedly. And I was glad King handled Jake's death the way he did, with Roland distracted with the author, because it might just have broken my heart. And Roland's.
Walter's death was interesting - defintely figured he would have went through a showdown with Roland. Same with the Crimson King. The Gunslinger didn't do the Gunslingin' when I expected this time.

It was also interesting seeing King point out his own use of deus ex machina, and then a few hundred pages later putting in a massive one (the note re: Dandelo).

On to the ending:
I would have been more satisfied without reading Coda - I was prepared to say, yes, the journey is the most important, Roland got there, excellent. Coda just frustrtated me though - if we know he's looping, and we know he's making a difference (having the horn, smelling roses) then why not show what happens when he finally learns? Or is that secret - when Roland finally achieves redemption, he's not even going to bother opening the door to the tower. (Just read some of Erf's comments and yes, it seems that not going into the tower at all may be the secret,p but why then is the whole centre of existence a shrine to Roland? What's the point of it?)

Ka's a wheel though I suppose, and a mighty heavy one to turn at that.

If the quest is so much about Roland, why did Susannah turn back though? She had a vibe that she wasn't supposed to be there - Roland had nothing to do with that. He let her leave, but didn't start her on that path.

As far as the ending with Eddie/Susannah/Jake, I felt it cheapened their sacrifice. The Jake and Eddie in that New York aren't the ones who gave up so much - if Eddie hadn't lived with his brother all those years, went through his addiction, wuold he really be Eddie? No, he's just some guy who looks like him. Same with Jake. And that disappointed me. To be honest, I would have much rathered see them united at the clearing at the end of the path, even if it meant losing the last member of the ka-tet.

So, that's the end. Was it the best book I've read this year? I'm not sure. It still feels a little flawed. It's definnitely the book that's had the most emotional impact on me. I think I need some time to think about it and Roland a little more.
 
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Eventine said:
(Just read some of Erf's comments and yes, it seems that not going into the tower at all may be the secret,p but why then is the whole centre of existence a shrine to Roland? What's the point of it?)
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DARK TOWER 7 SPOILERS AHEAD......BEWARE:

Re: Why it is a shrine to Roland.

Obviously, there are no right answers, but I sort of think that it would be a shrine to whomever got there. If Cuthbert had been the one that persevered and got to the tower, I think it may have been a shrine to him and he would have been sent back. If Jake, then same for him. It is fantasy, so who is to say that that is all the tower is. The tower can be many things to many people.

That does fit fairly well with the mythological underpinnings of the concept of the tower as it is presented throughout. In a traditional mythological framework, the object of the quest is usually representative of something inside us -- and how that object is dealt with and achieved is a lesson to us. The tower is what everyone needs to deal with, the dark part of each of us. In Roland's case, he has only been able to go at it fighting every time, with no regard for others as anything but tools. In order to conquer that, we need only come to peace with it and accept it as part of ourselves (and maybe not turn that page, have the strength to say, "Okay. That's the end for me"). Think Ged vs. dark Ged in Earthsea. He understands that it's just a part of himself and thus gains all the power he needs over it. (Could be total BS, but it's my total BS rationale for the ending of the DT and it works for me.)
 
Hey, it makes sense though, and if it works for you then that's cool.

I like the idea about it representing whoever gets in - make me wonder what would've happenend if Susan had stuck with him though....

Also, I've been wondering since I finished: if I read it again, would Roland's ending be slightly different from the last time?
 
Actually, just realised a (potential) flaw in your theory:

When Roland head's up the tower, on the level where the Crimson King is on the balcony, the King has destroyed the item from Roland's past (it was a nappy?). This to me suggests it was always aspected to Roland.
Maybe I've confused things there though - because how did the King get access to the tower to get on the balcony? I thought Roland's gun was necessary to provide access. The better question is probably: how did the Crimson King get on the balcony?
 
i simply viewed the Tower itself as the transitional "plane" between incarnations, a purgatory of sorts. certainly, the replaying of life events as he climbs the tower is consistent with many spirtual takes on the immediate after-life. i envision Roland as continuing along the same path, making better decisions each time, until ultimately he lives the life of his "enlightened" self, at which point the tower would lead him to the next higher realm of existence (heaven, nirvana, etc.) as opposed to another incarnation.

frankly, the juxtaposition of ultimate emotional lows (first seeing Roland get sucked right back to where he started in the desert) and highs (realizing the presence of the horn means that Roland is destined to succeed)
was one of the most stunning and unforgettable moments in my literary experience.

MOD NOTE:

IF EVERYONE ELSE HAS USED SPOILERS, YOU SHOULD TOO!
 
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As I've really enjoyed all the other DT novels, I'm happy to hear this. King has proven over the years that he really cares for these books and isn't just writing DT novels to cash in on their popularity. I feel like if he's writing it, he must feel that it's something that will contribute positively to the overall universe.

Thanks for mentioning this one, Eventine.
 
Erfael said:
King has proven over the years that he really cares for these books and isn't just writing DT novels to cash in on their popularity. I feel like if he's writing it, he must feel that it's something that will contribute positively to the overall universe.
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I'm of the opposite mind. I loved the first 4 DT Books, and thought the fifth was OK. But the sixth and (especially) the final one really led me to believe he just wanted to finally get it all over with. I have always thought King could write a horror story about what would happen if Young King traveled into the future and saw what Old King did with the Dark Tower series.

And I'm also not a fan of "fill in the gap" books. There can never be any big changes to the characters or universe, because we already know what the state of the characters and universe must be when a "gap" book reaches its conclusion. If there is going to be a new DT book, I'd like to have it taken beyond what we already know.

(This is also why I roll my eyes whenever a new Herbert / Anderson Dune book comes out. "In Sandals of Dune, Herbert and Anderson tell the shocking truth about what happened to Paul Atreidies between waking up one morning, and having a Spice Latte a little later on just before lunch!" :) )

Ken
 
I'm with you on the no "gap book" but I would revisit Roland in a minute. I am still sad to have finished the series. The ending was so brutal. Hey pal nice adventure you had there - lets do it again.


ah Hell - I'll read it even if it is a gap book. I love those characters and I know King does too. So sure bring it on.
 
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Daddy Darth said:
Hey pal nice adventure you had there - lets do it again.
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Damn you, Daddy Darth *fist shake*

I'm only on Wolves of the Calla, and I'm finding it hard to start. #4 was a bit poor for me (mind you, it's only my first read of the series), but Mr King? Stop! Lemme read upto #7 first.
 
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