Good books don't have to be hard

Not that i give a flying **** about what is considered literary and what not, or what are other people's perceptions and opinions about what i like to read.

But as a non-native english speaker, i wonder about this whole discussion. Before i started to read books in english and read about those books in english, online and offline, i wasn't even aware that "genre fiction" is not considered literature in the eyes of some people. As far as i know, where i live, there is no distinction, Literature is any creative writing that is not Poetry.
Even after i understood what "literary" means in english, i always thought it's bs, what literary and what not has nothing to do with genres in my opinion.
That might be why i never suffered the inferiority complex that some SFF readers seem to suffer from (no, i'm not ashamed to read a book with a huge axe-wielding barbarian and a scantly clad chick on the cover in public).

So, i ask people from non-english speaking countries, does what i'm saying sound familiar? is it the english speaking world that is the unusual here, or do i live in a literary lalaland? or maybe it's a european thing and not just english?
And to english speakers, maybe in the english world it's just the people that into books that make the distinction? does the average Joe also think genre and literature are two different things?
 
Not that i give a flying **** about what is considered literary and what not, or what are other people's perceptions and opinions about what i like to read.

But as a non-native english speaker, i wonder about this whole discussion. Before i started to read books in english and read about those books in english, online and offline, i wasn't even aware that "genre fiction" is not considered literature in the eyes of some people. As far as i know, where i live, there is no distinction, Literature is any creative writing that is not Poetry.
Even after i understood what "literary" means in english, i always thought it's bs, what literary and what not has nothing to do with genres in my opinion.
That might be why i never suffered the inferiority complex that some SFF readers seem to suffer from (no, i'm not ashamed to read a book with a huge axe-wielding barbarian and a scantly clad chick on the cover in public).

So, i ask people from non-english speaking countries, does what i'm saying sound familiar? is it the english speaking world that is the unusual here, or do i live in a literary lalaland? or maybe it's a european thing and not just english?
And to english speakers, maybe in the english world it's just the people that into books that make the distinction? does the average Joe also think genre and literature are two different things?

I'm not a native speaker of English; I'm an American. (*cough*)

Seriously, this is an old, old argument. It pops up in various forms quite often, at least in the U.S. For instance, and to quote Michael Dirda, a reviewer for the Washington Post,

Over the long weekend of [Readercon] a recurrent theme gradually emerged: What is the relationship of genre literature to so-called mainstream literature? My view is that Literature should include the best books of all genres and times. A great work of art is a great work of art because of its language, intensity of vision, esthetic unity, influence, and other such elements. Genre may help a writer to organize his imaginative vision or to market it, but isn’t otherwise very important. There are great sonnets, good sonnets and bad sonnets, and they all have 14 lines.

This comes from the Post's Dirda's Reading Room section. Dirda has a history of reviewing and championing genre works in his columns. He had spent much of his time at the Readercon hobnobbing with, among others, Charles Brown, editor of Locus magazine. Brown died suddenly a few days later. This all seemed to bring Dirda to raise the question.

The majority of the reading room members agreed, but one rather good arguer has taken the stand that genre imposes plot limitations, certain spots that have to be hit as in stage acting, or flags that have to be shimmied past as in downhill sloloms. This is demonstrably true, in that some writers don't handle the conventions well (Dirda's point about sonnets), but it is not necessarily true. The rather limited tools for reply at the Post site have ... er ... somewhat limited the discussion, I think -- far clunkier interface than sffworld -- but it hasn't stopped a couple of people from challenging the poster.

Fuel for this argument was added not so very long ago -- early 2009, in fact -- by the head of the committee for awarding the Nobel Prize for Literature when he dismissed contemporary American writing as being too concerned and consumed with our own pop culture, of which genre literature is a part. What struck me then, and still does, was the implied assumption that cultural traditions and, though I may be reading in on this, possibly traditions of religion in literature, were somehow assumed as all good; my initial thought was that he'd probably hate Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery," a story that questions tradition.

On the other hand, in France besides Poe, American writers like Lovecraft, Cornell Woolrich, Chester Himes, and Dashiell Hammett, among others, all genre writers, have been championed. One of the major French critics of his time, Andre Gide, claimed Hammett as one of the five best American novelists then writing (Hammett was contemporary with Hemingway).

In England, Christopher Priest, Ruth Rendall, P. D. James, Brian Aldiss, M. John Harrison and Michael Moorcock, among others, are all considered serious writers. All of them began and still write in genres.

So, I think much of the argument you're seeing summarized here is based in the U.S. Our forefathers had a cultural inferiority complex and it became an inheritance. Perhaps oddly enough, it was diluted by the contributions of the modernists to world literature -- T.S. Eliot, Hemingway and Faulkner in particular are regarded as major writers around the world, not just in the U.S. -- but still the inferiority complex persists and so we have arguments like this that lead to the simplistic reduction, 'if it's ___ it can't be good, and if it's good it can't be ____."


Randy M.
 
Let's put it this way Fitzchivalry. Professional writers usually graduate from some English course in university. Having studied the subject for a number of years there is an expectation that such a person is an expert with the English language. The question is what does that mean? How does studying language and literature translate into expertise over the regular Joe that didn't? In a certain sense to justify their discipline, writers, literary critics, teachers, and other former English majors have created this concept called "literature" which is basically a collection of works that exemplify mastery of what they studied and were taught. Most of this pertains to subtlety, dexterity, and efficiency in the use of language, and with Modernist dogma in mind, is usually something about the "human condition". Keeping this in mind it is important to note the emphasis on style and form.

Genre writers are a threat to this literary establishment because in general genres do not emphasize or place a premium on language. They put more of a premium on content. A physicist writing science fiction might not write prettily but might more than make up for it in mind-blowing imagination and in the manipulation of technical ideas and concepts that would leave the poor English major beyond his/her ken. This probably explains the reluctance of the literary establishment to embracing genre and the resulting friction. The metrics they use in determining and judging "literature" are simply not up to the task for measuring genre works on the genre's own terms.
 
Last edited:
Let's put it this way Fitzchivalry. Professional writers usually graduate from some English course in university. Having studied the subject for a number of years there is an expectation that such a person is an expert with the English language. The question is what does that mean? How does studying language and literature translate into expertise over the regular Joe that didn't? In a certain sense to justify their discipline, writers, literary critics, teachers, and other former English majors have created this concept called "literature" which is basically a collection of works that exemplify mastery of what they studied and were taught. Most of this pertains to subtlety, dexterity, and efficiency in the use of language, and with Modernist dogma in mind, is usually something about the "human condition". Keeping this in mind it is important to note the emphasis on style and form.

Genre writers are a threat to this literary establishment because in general genres do not emphasize or place a premium on language. They put more of a premium on content. A physicist writing science fiction might not write prettily but might more than make up for it in mind-blowing imagination and in the manipulation of technical ideas and concepts that would leave the poor English major beyond his/her ken. This probably explains the reluctance of the literary establishment to embracing genre and the resulting friction. The metrics they use in determining and judging "literature" are simply not up to the task for measuring genre works on the genre's own terms.

Well said. This particular post should be stickied. This perfectly elaborates, IMO, the battle that is 'literary v. genre.'
 
To me the view that people have just gotten stupider with time is a sad lazy excuse, a fig leaf to cover up the calcification in literary criticism. Might as well say the earth is flat.

I'm just saying you can't assume that the intelligence level remained the same over time. I'm not sure that people did get stupider over time, I'm just pointing out it's plausible. I think it's lazy to make the assertion, without proof, that intelligence remained the same over time. I also don't know how you'd answer that question to my satisfaction. Usually I require a quantitative measurement like IQ scores rather than a qualitative assertion like "readers like more plot now so they're less intellectual." IQ test scores over time have showed an increase in IQ score, but then again IQ score does improve with education, and the education level did improve significantly in the last century. Therefore, IQ scores are not a sufficient measure of intelligence.

If you're going to assert that intelligence levels have remained the same, I'm afraid you're going to have to prove it to me. As a matter of fact your entire post was a long string of unsupported assumptions. Maybe that's normal for literary criticism, but I'm too strong a skeptic to believe you.
 
I'm just saying you can't assume that the intelligence level remained the same over time. I'm not sure that people did get stupider over time, I'm just pointing out it's plausible. I think it's lazy to make the assertion, without proof, that intelligence remained the same over time. I also don't know how you'd answer that question to my satisfaction.

I can't "prove" it because I don't have the cites to hand, so you may well just dismiss this post as Internet blatheration, but pretty much every historical and sociological study that's looked at the topic has concluded that, contrary to the usual sky-is-falling rhetoric, people are getting smarter, not stupider, over time. The trend seems to be accelerating, too, although it's hard to separate that from advances in education and technology generally.

This isn't really surprising to me. Worldwide, intelligence is now more important to success in human society than it has ever been. The day when you could win an empire by being bigger and meaner than the other guy is mostly gone (unless you're looking at the burgeoning career track of Somalian warlord); now it's all about smarts.

I think we tend to lose sight of that, especially in the U.S., because pop culture is so incredibly lowbrow and frequently, unrepentantly caters to the lowest common denominator. It's hard to have much faith in the upward progression of human intelligence when the Transformers sequel is a blockbuster hit and Stephenie Meyer sells books by the boatload. But in its way, even the rampant and raging stupidity of pop culture shows the point: we only have Internet txtspk because applied human intelligence gave us the technology and prosperity to make that form of communication possible and widespread; we only have so many half-wits dribbling along ineptly reading and writing because they are literate in the first place. A hundred years ago, they wouldn't be reading or writing at all, and only the most educated people would have left any substantial written record of their existence. Now everyone can do it, so it looks like the average has gotten dumber when in fact the opposite is true.

In short: we are not quite as dumb as we look, though in the U.S. at least we seem to be doing everything possible to hide that fact. ;)
 
And people often confuse ignorance with stupidity. It's quite easy for intelligent people to appear stupid by displaying ignorance of someone else's field of expertise. (Even if that field of expertise is something as ephemeral and 'low-brow' as say, the current pop music charts, or whoever Paris Hilton is or is not supposed to be sleeping with this week.)
 
Last edited:
You all are trying to make those neat tribes again. There is no war between literary and genre. What there are, are a lot of people who perceive that there is or should be a war between literary and genre, that literary is one definite thing, type of story structure, and genre is another type of story structure. Which is incorrect, and the war is imaginary. And people don't believe in the war for just one reason. There are numerous factors that go into them having this perception.

Fitz -- it's not a matter of English versus non-English. In the English-language markets/territories -- Canada, U.S., U.K. and Australia -- there are people who feel that some genre writers' works are literary and some who feel that those works are not and still others who feel that genre can't be literary and who usually have a very hazy notion of what genre is. Some of that last group are actually SFF fans.

The media in English language countries, or for that matter in any country, has very little interest in written fiction. When you can get them to cover written fiction, they often think that screeds about how awful and commercial fiction has become will attract readers, so the people complaining about such things tend to get more time -- but are not the only views presented. But this leads to skewed perceptions. But there is no uniform American attitude toward literary in fiction, toward genre fiction, etc.

In other non-English countries, there is also no uniform attitude either. I've been told by many of our global brethren how in their country, SFF and genre is looked down on as crap by most people. But there are also probably many people in those countries who do not agree with this view. In many non-English countries, there are no category markets, but that doesn't mean all types of fiction are viewed equally there.

Put simply, start a sentence with "Americans are like this" or "Germans think this way" and I will automatically stop listening to you because you are building an imaginary box and shoving everyone in it.

genre imposes plot limitations
-- This is an imaginary belief that thinks genre is a movement with particular styles and structures to stories. It's an attempt to create a genre tribe where genre is a uniform writing philosophy. This is not the case. There are no plot limitations in genre or any other type of fiction. There are no style or structural limitations.

Professional writers usually graduate from some English course in university. Having studied the subject for a number of years there is an expectation that such a person is an expert with the English language. The question is what does that mean? How does studying language and literature translate into expertise over the regular Joe that didn't? In a certain sense to justify their discipline, writers, literary critics, teachers, and other former English majors have created this concept called "literature" which is basically a collection of works that exemplify mastery of what they studied and were taught. Most of this pertains to subtlety, dexterity, and efficiency in the use of language, and with Modernist dogma in mind, is usually something about the "human condition". Keeping this in mind it is important to note the emphasis on style and form.

Genre writers are a threat to this literary establishment because in general genres do not emphasize or place a premium on language. They put more of a premium on content. A physicist writing science fiction might not write prettily but might more than make up for it in mind-blowing imagination and in the manipulation of technical ideas and concepts that would leave the poor English major beyond his/her ken. This probably explains the reluctance of the literary establishment to embracing genre and the resulting friction. The metrics they use in determining and judging "literature" are simply not up to the task for measuring genre works on the genre's own terms.

Completely inaccurate and an attempt to create a uniform, tribal myth. This is the myth from the genre side -- those nasty intellectual tribesmen are threatened by us rough, common folk genre tribesmen. Numerous SFFH and mystery and romance writers are English majors. Some SFF authors are college professors of literature. Many contemporary fiction writers were not English majors. A contemporary fiction writer considered literary and exciting enough to get bought by Farrar, Straus & Giroux never made it past the 8th grade in school.

Oh, but let me guess, those "exceptions" don't count. To which I respond, yes they do. Dump the script, and stop playing imaginary war. Perceive the reality that writers of any type of fiction are varied, and the readers of any type of fiction are varied, and the way writers do stories in any area of fiction are varied, and stop building huge generalization boxes. Because it's bogus, IMO, both in reality and as a way of talking about fiction.

because pop culture is so incredibly lowbrow and frequently, unrepentantly caters to the lowest common denominator.

Which would make you, a fan of science fiction, fantasy, horror and romance, the lowest common denominator who they are catering to, Cranky. This myth -- the nobles and the peasants, highbrow/lowbrow -- is my least favorite, and also completely untrue and imaginary. And coming from SFF fans, who get the same myth used against them all the time, always seems really pointless to me.
 
Which would make you, a fan of science fiction, fantasy, horror and romance, the lowest common denominator who they are catering to, Cranky.

Yes, clearly, because there is no difference whatsoever between Stephenie Meyer and Cormac McCarthy, and Transformers is the intellectual equivalent of 2001 (or, for that matter, District 9, or any other film that even glances at the possibility of being about something more than fist-fighting interstellar Hasbro toys and Megan Fox's rear end). And "all SF/F fans are by definition the lowest common denominator" is exactly what I said. :rolleyes:

There's a difference between arguing that arbitrary genre vs. literary labeling is unnecessary tribalism (a point on which I would agree with you, although the entire discussion bores me to tears) and arguing that all entertainment is intellectually equal, which is dumb. The latest tabloid expose of K-Fed's weight gain (omg shocking and newsworthy!!!) isn't genre entertainment at all, but it's still completely stupid, and someone who saw that on America's newsstands instead of, you know, real news might justifiably come away with the misimpression that we're stupider than we were fifty years back.
 
I apologize for tarring and feathering you along with other points I was arguing. :) I understand what you are saying about the perception of us Yanks being stupid through our tabloids, etc.

But, I still can't resist tweaking you: "arguing that all entertainment is intellectually equal, which is dumb."

This is still a script. It's a we can all agree that Transformers is intellectually dumb script. Which is not the case. For you, Transformers may be dumb. For me, it wasn't, and I'm happy to talk about why that's my opinion in a thread in the Film/TV forum if you like. All entertainment is subjectively assessed. It can't be equal because all of us will never view things as equal. There are people whom you will never convince that comic books are a form of art. There are people who feel that Ernest Hemingway was a hack, and so on. Many French people find Jerry Lewis to be a master auteur, while many Americans dismiss him as a grating clown, re the discussion of countries.

So I agree that the perception of Americans can come from perceptions of culture labeled pop. I don't agree that the everybody knows X is bad argument is a good one, though.

Part of the main problem of the literary versus genre script is again the attempt to make things uniform over the word genre. Genre in the academic sense refers to a movement of style and structure, such as the Modernists. But in the fiction market, we've come to use genre to mean type, and that's what we mean by fantasy genre. We mean it's a story that has fantastical elements in it. Doesn't tell you anything about the style, structure, language use, themes, focus, plotting, etc. of the particular story. It doesn't tell you anything about the novel's quality, which each person will assess. There is a whole style/structure spectrum in the fantasy genre from surrealism to noir patois to farce with puns. And the fantasy genre includes books sold in general fiction, rather than just those in the category section -- it doesn't matter who publishes it or what the plot is.

But people keep trying to use the type genre as movement genre or are confused that they are the same, keep trying to talk about genre as one specific style. What we call conventions or tropes -- another academic word misused -- are not requirements for a work in the fantasy genre. They may be in a category fantasy novel or they may not be. This is where Margaret Atwood is confused. She has science fiction elements in a novel, it's a science fiction novel. But she thinks the elements have to be of a certain kind used in a certain way, etc., or it can't be "genre" as if genre was a uniform movement.

This is my objection to Bond's comments. It is not uniform that all genre writers put a premium on content -- that's a movement idea. There are no literary "metrics" because no one can agree as to what they are. And someone's criteria for literary-ness can't be applied to an entire genre en masse because some books would have it and some would not. Because the books in a type genre are varied. That's what Vandermeer is talking about and that's what I regularly bitch about.

Historical fiction is a type genre too; it just doesn't have it's own section and so it's not included in the term genre, and many people find many historical fiction novels to be "literary," give them a prize and everything. Genre in the fiction market is not a philosophy of writing. It's the use of certain elements. But how writers use those elements is completely open. And whether what the writer does will be considered literary or not becomes a matter of interpretation, of some people in agreement, but not in authority. So Stephen King can be literary to some people and get a literary prize, and to other people this is a really bad idea and he's awful. That's reality. Literary versus genre? That's a fantasy. That genre is just one style and approach? Very hard to prove.

When Grossman's piece came out, I shrugged and thought that he was at least trying to do some good. But when Vandermeer responded to the piece and talked about how people set up tribes and ignore variety, I just thought that it was an excellent way to put it. Better than I do it, anyway.
 
In other non-English countries, there is also no uniform attitude either. I've been told by many of our global brethren how in their country, SFF and genre is looked down on as crap by most people. But there are also probably many people in those countries who do not agree with this view. In many non-English countries, there are no category markets, but that doesn't mean all types of fiction are viewed equally there.

Put simply, start a sentence with "Americans are like this" or "Germans think this way" and I will automatically stop listening to you because you are building an imaginary box and shoving everyone in it.

You misread me, i didn't say ALL americans think the same, this is obviously wrong judging by this thread and others, but in my country, the discussion does not even exist, yes, some people see SF as a genre to avoid or scorn, some people see other genres in that way too, but there is no question that it is a part of Literature, be it a good part or a bad part, that's a subjective individual opinion, but i never heard anyone say it's not literature, the full name for SF is Science Fiction Literature actually, and fantasy is Fantasy Literature.
But in the english speaking world, those genres are not even considered part of literature by some people, and again, i never said ALL english speakers think that way, which is a big difference, the discussion vs. no discussion, that is what i'm talking about. And Bond and Randy M. gave some decent explanations to why that is so.
As for category markets, sure, they exist here too, and in most countries, they don't really affect the way people think of what Literature is, categories and genres are a part of the whole Literature thing, they are not distinct.
As for other countries, i don't know about them, that's why i asked, but i doubt that discussion exists in all countries except for mine.

Of course, if you want to stop listen, it's your choice.
 
KatG, why are there Hugos and Nebulas? Why not just leave things up to the Pulitzers?

Why is it that The Matrix, Spider-Man 2, and The Dark Knight weren't even nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture?

Why are there so few fantasy and science fiction movies nominated much less winners of the Best Picture Oscar?

Why is it that Seamus Heaney won the Whitbread and not J.K. Rowling when it seems he basically submitted a translation?

It is not uniform that all genre writers put a premium on content -- that's a movement idea.

Then I guess I'm speaking on the level of movements, although I don't know what the name of the movement is. A movement that values the content from world building and the feelings of wonder invoked by new and imaginative things and situations and teasing out their possibilities instead of Modernists who seem to put a priority in squeezing as much out of the most banal of everyday situations? Can you supply a name for it?

There are no literary "metrics" because no one can agree as to what they are.

But there are metrics, mainly conforming to Modernist theory. How else do people determine what is taught in schools? Books aren't chosen at random.

And someone's criteria for literary-ness can't be applied to an entire genre en masse because some books would have it and some would not. Because the books in a type genre are varied.

What separates fantasy and science fiction from other writing? What distinguishes it? I would say it is because certain things need to be made up, something outside the current everyday world of experience. SFF shows how things can be different. This is the antithesis of what Modernism values which concerns itself with permanent and universal aspects of the human condition. Modernism tends to promote the idea that ultimately all things are the same. There is a fundamental difference in orientation from the start.

One can argue there are examples that reconcile the two---but how about the great number that don't? Just because they don't follow Modernist dogma are they then supposed to be considered junk? There may be writers who seek the approval of the Modernist literary establishment. That's their business. My concern as a reader is seeing more of the works that I value get written. What I don't want to see is a case like Raymond Feist who with his debut fantasy came out with something full of vitality but who in his attempts to become a more "serious" writer lost that ineffable quality that made his early efforts appealing. Reading the foreword to the preferred edition of his Riftwar Saga, I was struck by how defensive he seemed to be about his writing. I want to see authors who have their own voice use it and not end up ruining their writing by trying to conform to people who don't know or care what they're all about.
 
Yeah, and got the T-shirt, too . . . .

What is the point of all this? It is just barely possible, I suppose, that published debates, particularly in widely read forums, might have some small effect on the overall sales of this or that author, or even type of author, but frankly I doubt it. We each buy the kinds of books we like: the end. But if we must quibble over these things . . . .

Genre and literary merit are measures that are orthogonal. (And "mainstream" is just another genre.)

To say that most genre fiction is crappy is true, but hardly qualifies as information. It is especially important to recall that "mainstream" is just another genre, because by following that reasoning out, we arrive at a mighty truth that Ted Sturgeon published, duh, decades ago: most of everything is crap.

Oversimplified, and in brutal honesty, literary merit can be measured by the intelligence level of the average satisfied reader of a given book. Or, another casting--amounting to the same thing in the end--is that complexity and subtlety are the qualities that most of the time for most readers give the most enjoyment (as they do with wine tasting or baseball or most any other activity in which intellect is required for appreciation of the activity--who was it that said "The brain is the most erogenous zone of the body"?). To judge the typical genre book (What is "typical"? Let's say the sort of thing that dominates the SF Book Club's listings) against, say, Hemingway is no different than comparing the sorts of things you find in the racks in supermarkets with M. John Harrison. Merit and genre are orthogonal measures. A good writer writes good books; a poor writer writes poor books. The category of book is immaterial.

Speculative fiction difers from "mainstream" fiction only in that it takes place in a setting in which some law or organizing principle, whether natural or human, that has a material effect on how human beings react to Life, The Universe, and Everything works differently than we have ever so far observed in "the real world". That's all.

In good speculative fiction, the author creates the difference to better or more easily convey whatever it is that she or he has to say about the human condition; that is one reason why "genre" authors occasionally cross into mainstream (what they have to say in that book doesn't require the special focussed spotlight that differing principles facilitate), and mainstream authors into genre (the book does require a special focussing spotlight).

In mediocre speculative fiction, the differences are wallpaper and window treatments, not integral to the work. These are easy to spot, because they could effortlessly be re-written into a different setting (or "genre") with no meaningful loss to the tale. (David Gemmell wrote westerns, but because westerns don't sell well nowadays, he placed them into a sf/fantasy setting.)

There's no harm in using a fantasy or sf setting purely for decorative effect, but neither is there any gain. It just makes a time-passer, not a work that engages the mind, emotions, and sensibilities. Sometimes, all we want is "summer reading", just as on occasion we want a glass of cola instead of a good beer or wine; but when we want to explore at some depth what it means to be human, we want a work of literary merit. Whether its author feels that that exploration should take place in Dublin or in Viriconium is irrelevant save to that author's purposes.
 
As for other countries, i don't know about them, that's why i asked, but i doubt that discussion exists in all countries except for mine.

I would be interested to know too. I suspect - though I have no proof and do not really have time to go looking for it - that 'genre' came into being with the mass market pulps of the twenties and thirties. Adventure, Amazing Stories, Black Mask, Dime Detective, Flying Aces, Horror Stories, Marvel Tales, Oriental Stories, Planet Stories, Spicy Detective, Startling Stories, Thrilling Wonder Stories, Unknown and Weird Tales. etc. ad nauseam. Before that American magazines like Argosy Magazine were more catholic in their editorial policies.
The pulps were an American institution exported, fitfully, to the rest of the English speaking world. Without such an influence maybe the rest of the (non Anglaphone) world didn't slice their literature into easily identifiable markets. I don't know; I'm hypothesising.
 
but in my country, the discussion does not even exist

Either you have a very enlightened population in your country, or you're making a big assumption about how everybody thinks in your country.

some people see SF as a genre to avoid or scorn, some people see other genres in that way too, but there is no question that it is a part of Literature, be it a good part or a bad part, that's a subjective individual opinion, but i never heard anyone say it's not literature, the full name for SF is Science Fiction Literature actually, and fantasy is Fantasy Literature.

Again, never heard is not the same thing as doesn't exist. The reason others may not follow what you are saying however, is that they believe that literature means good fiction only. So there's no "bad" literature in their view. Therefore if someone scorns SF as a whole (as opposed to an individual title,) they are saying that it isn't literature. It's bad trash. That's the literature-trash dichotomy for some people.

As for category markets, sure, they exist here too,
-- So you have category sections in your bookstores and specialty publishers and publishing imprints who publish nothing but SFF or mystery? Many countries don't have this, though they sell SFF, mystery, romance, etc., in the bookstores as fiction with other kinds of fiction.

I think it's wonderful if you do indeed have that, that genre is just part of the body of literature. There are countries where that is the dominant view and it's much saner. So why isn't it the dominant view, say, in the U.S.? Well, first off, in much of the populous, it is the dominant view, but there is also a class philosophy in the U.S. (and the U.K., etc.) that most people in the country are simplistic, low-brow morons. And so if you can argue that the majority of low-brow morons like something, you can argue that it can't be literary. (And this is often done by SFF fans as well.) And you can get such an argument into the media pretty regularly because they're lazy, and because it plays well.

There is also the use of literary as a marketing tool. This is why, even though books labeled literary are launched strategically and have about the same rate of success/failure as books that are not, the idea that literary books struggle to get anyone to read them at all while the barbarian hordes go only for brain-dead trash fiction is propagated because it helps sell the books labeled literary. They are the few, the elite, the last bastion of civilization, etc., so your reading club should read them and they should be adopted for college courses.

There is also the history of book publishing in the U.S. in which there were two book publishing industries in the 20th century, one which did mainly paperback and sold in drugstores, and the other which did mainly hardcover and sold in bookstores. And the two industries merged around World War II and post-war. And the social system changed. And non-white authors kept writing, and women kept writing. And all these things effect people's perceptions of fiction. And "genre" fiction, which was often put in paperback, which could be easily found in drugstores, which "common" people and young people read, which developed their own sections in the bookstore in the later half of the 20th century -- genre is a really easy target for those wanting to make imaginary wars, especially if you declare say the mystery genre to consist of thugs with guns and sex, or SFF as spaceships and elves with sex, and romance as cheesy melodrama with sex, and so on.

And yes, the Modernist movement certainly did have an impact on some people's perceptions, but the Modernist movement wasn't the only "literary" movement in the 20th century, nor even dominant. In fact, the Modernists were the young upstart revolutionaries for a couple decades. And now they're long gone, and some people may espouse their principles but numerous others don't. We have books that can be considered Modernist in every area of fiction and many that are not. All this clean split stuff Grossman was proposing as a way of discussing ideas -- the problem with that is people then think the clean split is fact, when it's not even close.

What separates fantasy and science fiction from other writing? What distinguishes it?

A good writer writes good books; a poor writer writes poor books. The category of book is immaterial.

There's your answer, from owlcroft. (Who then goes on to give what are owlcroft's criteria for a good book, with which others may or may not agree.) A fantasy book has fantastical elements in it. A science fiction story has science fiction elements in it. That is the only requirement. Everything else -- tone, language choice, style, plot, characters, what type of ending, etc. -- is not an attribute required for a book to be fantasy or SF, or a fantasy or SF title sold in the category market. You're trying to use Margaret Atwood's argument for why her book isn't SF, Bond. Fantasy is not a uniform movement like the Modernists. But the Modernists were a movement that was part of the genre of contemporary fiction. The Modernists were considered a literary movement by some and commercial hackery by others. You can compare magic realism, a movement, against the Modernists, say -- that's two movements/styles. But comparing Modernists to the wide range of fantasy, which includes books that could be called Modernists, like New Weird? That requires you to try and stuff all of fantasy into a very narrow definition that is not accurate. Which Vandermeer was complaining about, and I'm always complaining about.

Why is it that The Matrix, Spider-Man 2, and The Dark Knight weren't even nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture?

Why are there so few fantasy and science fiction movies nominated much less winners of the Best Picture Oscar?

Why is it that Seamus Heaney won the Whitbread and not J.K. Rowling when it seems he basically submitted a translation?

Because the people in charge of the votes or determining for those awards subjectively didn't think those things were good enough, and yes, many of them were probably fighting an imaginary culture war for those perceptions. Other people, however, put Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon on the long short list for the National Book Award. Other people gave the National Book Foundation's medal for distinguished contributions to American letters to Stephen King. (The NBF also gives out the National Book Awards.) Stephen Donaldson just got an honorary doctorate of letters from a U.K. university. And The Return of the King and Titanic both won Oscars for Best Picture. The other side of the imaginary culture war isn't uniform either.

How else do people determine what is taught in schools? Books aren't chosen at random.

They are chosen subjectively. Which is why numerous SFF authors like Ursula LeGuin, Peter Beagle, Stephen King, William Gibson, Ray Bradbury, etc. are studied in universities and also, pretty wide-spread now, in high schools. (Isaac Asimov used to complain of this regularly because teachers kept assigning his stuff to their classes and then students would contact him wanting to interview him and have him help them write their report on his works.) And there are also numerous people in education and academia who subjectively think this is bonkers. There is not a uniform view. As far as I'm aware, as well, the Victorian writers are studied just as much as the Modernist in universities. And other 20th century writers who weren't Modernists are studied too. You can't stuff all of them in one box anymore than they can stuff genre into all one box, Bond. Well, you can, but it's not accurate.

The culture wars, literary versus genre wars, etc. are all imaginary, but that doesn't mean that people don't keep fighting them anyway and that this fight over imaginary issues doesn't have an impact. But if you want to reduce this, I think trying to continue to fight the war that is imaginary, continue to use the old scripts, is not very effective. What has been working a lot better is just to say that the war is imaginary and inaccurate and then talk about the books as individual books. That doesn't mean that we don't have a fantasy genre/category market anymore. It's just that we don't define it as a narrow style, but instead a type of fiction that is infinitely varied.

There are a lot of critics who are doing this. There are a lot of authors who are being sold this way -- in fact, it's the norm now for SFF. And it's helpful not just for genre writers but particularly for women and non-white writers, over whom these types of perception wars are also fought.
 
Either you have a very enlightened population in your country, or you're making a big assumption about how everybody thinks in your country.

Everything we do is making assumptions, but no, my assumption is not too big, i'm more aware of what's going on here than i do in the US, if there is some fanatical group of literary mujahadin that treats SFF as "not literature" here and i'm not aware of them, it means it's pretty irrelevant to the discussion, because they are hardly being heard. In the US, it's pretty easy to encounter those people, at least online, where i hang out.

Again, never heard is not the same thing as doesn't exist. The reason others may not follow what you are saying however, is that they believe that literature means good fiction only. So there's no "bad" literature in their view. Therefore if someone scorns SF as a whole (as opposed to an individual title,) they are saying that it isn't literature. It's bad trash. That's the literature-trash dichotomy for some people.

I didn't really get what you are saying, the literature vs. genre (not literature) is what Grossman is argueing about, it's the debate that i said doesn't happen over here, it's what this whole thread is about.
Here you have arguements about what is good literature and what is bad (imo, it's subjective, but that's not the point), so there is certainly "bad" literature in the view of some people here. But the most common reasoning that i heard from people that dismiss SFF as crap, is that they see it as infantile, as something related to children tales, unrealistic stories not fit for adults. Which is not the main reasoning behind dismissing genre fiction as "non literature" in the US or the UK.

-- So you have category sections in your bookstores and specialty publishers and publishing imprints who publish nothing but SFF or mystery? Many countries don't have this, though they sell SFF, mystery, romance, etc., in the bookstores as fiction with other kinds of fiction.

Actually, SF and Fantasy (still grouped together here on stores shelves) are pretty much the only genres of fiction that get their own shelves in the book stores, away from the "mainstream" fiction, well Children and YA get their own shelves too, but detectives, romances etc. don't. I never really thought about it, i don't think SFF sell more than detectives or romances here, maybe it's just because the readers of SFF are usually not interested in anything else, so they go only to those shelves. As for publishers and publishing imprints, as far as i know there have been special SF imprints since the 60s or 70s, and Fantasy imprints since the late 80s or early 90s.
 
Location: Israel. Duh, don't know why it took that long for it to occur to me to look left. :) So you have a category market for SFF, but not mystery, romance in Israel. Okay, good to know.

But the most common reasoning that i heard from people that dismiss SFF as crap, is that they see it as infantile, as something related to children tales, unrealistic stories not fit for adults. Which is not the main reasoning behind dismissing genre fiction as "non literature" in the US or the UK.

No, that's a different script. We have no shortage of scripts. That's the genre fiction is porn/juvenile script. It's often applied only to SFF and some horror -- to non-realistic fiction stories. It comes from many factors. One is that the category market's main audience used to be teenage boys and young men, who were thought to be either arrested in development so that they clung to made-up adventures or reading SFF as soft porn, or sometimes both. And from the fact that we all grew up on Disney movies, and the idea that fairy tales were just for kids. And also from people's view of sci-fi movies as infantile, so therefore written SFF must be infantile. And also from many people who have been taught that non-realistic fiction is not what adults read, and so on.

Also within the SFF field, there is a script that has only gotten worse with the success of YA fiction overall, that SFF is only worthy if it is very adult and that writers have to prove how adult they are with adult material and dark stuff that is adult and certain styles of stories over other styles of stories, and whatnot. Those writing in the adult market have to prove that they are not YA. Those writing in the YA market have to prove that they can appeal to adults. Otherwise, they are trash, but trash in the internal SFF sense, not the literary versus genre sense.

It's the closed definition. Hal Duncan has written a really interesting column, centered on SF but totally relevant to this discussion: http://www.bscreview.com/2009/09/notes-from-new-sodom-down-in-the-ghetto-at-the-sf-cafe/

You have to read the whole thing or you're not going to follow it. In it he talks about artificial dichotomy and the imaginary culture wars and how they got started. I would say that his description explains it a good bit better than Mr. Grossman's. It sounds like he will further expand on the topic later on -- this is a new column -- which I look forward to.
 
I'm with KatG on this, for the most part. So I'll just say that and save myself a bunch of typing.

Why is it that The Matrix, Spider-Man 2, and The Dark Knight weren't even nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture?

I wouldn't have given any of those films Best Picture either, even though I enjoyed all of them. Matrix won academy awards for Best Editing, Visual Effects, Sound and Sound Editing. and I think that was where the movie really excelled and deserved awards. Not so much in other regards. Spiderman 2 was the only one of the series I liked, and it was a solid and fun Summer movie, but it wasn't amazing. Ledger won the award for his performance, and rightfully so, but Best Picture? I wouldn't say so. Ledger was the reason to see that film. Everything else was decent to good, but not stellar. And it definitely had some issues with pacing (in my opinion, and all that).

I don't like the Academy Awards very much, and I'm not defending them so much as pointing out that I don't think the lack of Best Picture nods are due to some agenda against comics, science fiction or fantasy. Or rather ...

Why are there so few fantasy and science fiction movies nominated much less winners of the Best Picture Oscar?

Because not many of them are all-around great films. They usually have great elements, but aren't often a complete package in terms of quality.
 
Bond seems to be confusing Modernists with Realists. They are two very different schools of thought.
 
The Academy Awards is really no standard to judge movies by, the people who decide who wins are affected by fashion, the media, politics and what drug they took last night.
I think Matrix, The Dark Knight or Spiderman 2 are all better than Titanic in any way you look at it, but that's me, subjective.
In any case, not a good example there.
 
Last edited:

Sponsors


We try to keep the forum as free of ads as possible, please consider supporting SFFWorld on Patreon


Your ad here.
Back
Top