Good books don't have to be hard

Bond seems to be confusing Modernists with Realists. They are two very different schools of thought.

They are similar enough for the sake of my argument, same with magic realists. Realists were precursors to the modernists. Magic realists might as well be looked at as modernists writing fantasy. For a better contrast compare with romanticism.

Bear said:
Because not many of them [SFF or superhero films] are all-around great films. They usually have great elements, but aren't often a complete package in terms of quality.

Film is a visual medium. The winner the year Spider-Man 2 was out was Million Dollar Baby. I do not see the "complete" package in that movie. Spider-Man 2 was strong in multiple areas and I would argue a better fit for the description of an "all-around" film.

The Dark Knight is thought to have been displaced last year from the nominees by The Reader. The Dark Knight is widely considered one of the best movies of its kind. Are there nearly as many people who are going to say The Reader is among the best movies of its kind?

American Beauty won the year The Matrix was out and at least was slightly different as domestic dramas go. Still The Matrix I'd figure is the one people are still talking about more a decade later.

FitzChivalry said:
The Academy Awards is really no standard to judge movies by, the people who decide who wins are affected by fashion, the media, politics and what drug they took last night.
Don't forget the Pulitzer winners too. The idea of "Oscar bait" pretty much acknowledges its known biases.

KatG said:
But if you want to reduce this, I think trying to continue to fight the war that is imaginary, continue to use the old scripts, is not very effective. What has been working a lot better is just to say that the war is imaginary and inaccurate and then talk about the books as individual books. That doesn't mean that we don't have a fantasy genre/category market anymore. It's just that we don't define it as a narrow style, but instead a type of fiction that is infinitely varied.
As a reader I do not see this as a case of seeking equality which is what your argument implies. I do not see the need for SFF to try to fit snugly into the modernist worldview. I do not associate the recent successes of fantasy with a shift to more modernist writing. The literary establishment has become more accommodating because of popular success.
 
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Follow the money . . . .

There is also the use of literary as a marketing tool.
That strikes the nail right on the head. All this quibbling is crap largely (one is tempted to say wholly) deriving from publishers' wanting more sales: people who buy books marked "X!" (where "X" can be science fiction, fantasy, mystery, crime, western, romance, "literary", and Heaven knows what else) far more readily than books that are X but aren't expressly so labelled.

I have run across a good number of pleasing, and sometimes top-notch, fantasy books that I probably would never otherwise have heard of merely by scanning the mailers I get from Daedalus Books, a remainder seller; the periodic Daedalus catalogues (which I recommend everyone sign up for[1]) do section off books, but all fiction is simply categorized "Fiction". And those charming discoveries are despite my continually and, I think, diligently searching for qualified recommendations for quality speculative fiction works and authors I have not yet heard of.

The point, of course, is that those fantasies were not marketed as "genre" fantasies. And the reason has nothing to do with their contents or their authors' purposes, and everything to do with how the publisher felt that sales would be maximized. And--sad to say--by and large the publishers are correct. All too many of those who think themselves "fantasy fans" would much prefer to buy the latest mediaeval thud-and-blunder wizards-and-warriors doorstopper, conveniently labelled "fantasy" (and with a suitably garish cover) than, say, Oh Pure and Radiant Heart by Lydia Millet--omits the word "fantasy" from the cover, no dragons, knights, magi, or scantily clad maidens in distress shown there, must be something "literary", so no point in even picking it off the shelves for a look (and in any event, it wouldn't even be seen, because it's not on those shelves).

And thus the publishers keep their faithful customers from discovering what peas might lie under the other two shells, and the world turns, and so it goes . . . .


[1] You can buy used copies of most books a little cheaper than at Daedalus, but I don't think you can find new copies--which is what they sell--for much less. I have zero connection with them, except as a customer.
 
They are similar enough for the sake of my argument, same with magic realists. Realists were precursors to the modernists. Magic realists might as well be looked at as modernists writing fantasy. For a better contrast compare with romanticism.

Realists can easily be defined by their relationship with Romanticism and did have a set dogma and reliance on formalism. Modernists do not and they aren't particularly fond of Realists. Similarly Realists don't have much use for Modernists. One of Modernism's central ideas was the rejection of dogmas and formalisms. Realists and Modernists are more less on opposing sides of the issue of how to view the world and since they are opposed claiming they are "similar enough" isn't going to cut it.

In my opinion, you're setting up straw men to attack. So far your posts have displayed a complete lack of understanding of Modernism. Similarly your sweeping attacks on critics comes across as off base. Aside from Harold Bloom I can't think of any major critics that dislike Harry Potter but I can think of several that like it.
 
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Film is a visual medium. The winner the year Spider-Man 2 was out was Million Dollar Baby. I do not see the "complete" package in that movie. Spider-Man 2 was strong in multiple areas and I would argue a better fit for the description of an "all-around" film.

It's all subjective anyway, but I remember Million Dollar Baby more than Spiderman 2, and yes, I consider it much a better film. Spiderman 2 was a fun Summer movie, but not much else. Million Dollar Baby was far more effective, and a solid film on all fronts (writing, acting, directing, etc.). In my opinion, of course. But Spiderman 2 was in no way a standout film, unless we're just talking about Spiderman films.

The Dark Knight is thought to have been displaced last year from the nominees by The Reader. The Dark Knight is widely considered one of the best movies of its kind. Are there nearly as many people who are going to say The Reader is among the best movies of its kind?

Best of its kind doesn't matter. It's whether it was the best film of the year, to a specific group of judges. It wasn't for me, even though I very much enjoyed it (and bought it). Ledger and some of the cinematography were the only things I'd call stellar about the film. Didn't see The Reader, so I have no comment on that.

But either way, this is all up to the judges of that particular awards ceremony. And the issue is whether they consider it unworthy of the nod simply because of its genre, which I don't think they do. LotR nearly sweeping that entire year seems like it would remove some doubt about whether there's an agenda against "genre films". And I never got the impression that Jackson and crew had much political sway in the industry, so I don't see that getting chalked up as a one-off due to some behind the scenes string pulling.

American Beauty won the year The Matrix was out and at least was slightly different as domestic dramas go. Still The Matrix I'd figure is the one people are still talking about more a decade later.

People still talk about Rocky Horror Picture Show, too. Doesn't mean it was the best film of that year.

For my money, I liked The Matrix, but if forced on the issue I'd say American Beauty is the better of the two. And I have nothing against sci-fi and fantasy films. Hell, I tend to like them even when they're bad.
 
Realists can easily be defined by their relationship with Romanticism and did have a set dogma and reliance on formalism. Modernists do not and they aren't particularly fond of Realists. Similarly Realists don't have much use for Modernists. One of Modernism's central ideas was the rejection of dogmas and formalisms. Realists and Modernists are more less on opposing sides of the issue of how to view the world and since they are opposed claiming they are "similar enough" isn't going to cut it.

In my opinion, you're setting up straw men to attack. So far your posts have displayed a complete lack of understanding of Modernism. Similarly your sweeping attacks on critics comes across as off base.

This thread was started to get opinions on the article by Grossman. In it you will see that he brings up the modernists. I am basically agreeing with the assessment. So it seems there is something we both understand in common about modernists. Are we both setting up the modernists as straw men? Go ahead and identify the straw man in the argument.

The rejection of some dogmas and formalisms you associate with modernism does not mean that modernists did not preserve certain principles important to realism in their viewpoint or that modernism doesn't have dogmas of its own.

If you want case examples look up the criticism against the likes of Sir Walter Scott and James Fenimore Cooper by Mark Twain (who it seems is often classified as a realist despite his varied output) and further supported as seen in the attitude towards them by modernists. I do not think it accidental that that attitude bears uncanny resemblance to the attitude directed towards fantasy.

Aside from Harold Bloom I can't think of any major critics that dislike Harry Potter but I can think of several that like it.
Off the top of my head you can add William Safire who refused to read beyond the first because it was for children. The brouhaha over the Whitbread shows these are not isolated views.
 
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This thread was started to get opinions on the article by Grossman. In it you will see that he brings up the modernists. I am basically agreeing with the assessment. So it seems there is something we both understand in common about modernists. Are we both setting up the modernists as straw men? Go ahead and identify the straw man in the argument.

Grossman argues that Modernists made reading hard because they favored opaque works that lack plot. I agree with this, but disagree with the conclusions he draws from this. You argue that Modernists/Realists are concerned with formalisms, the human condition, and the banalities of everyday life and that they are not worth distinguishing between. The problem is that Realists don't like opaque works. The clearer the message the better, as far as they are concerned. You and Grossman have very different opinions about what modernism means. You graft Modernist and Realist traits together to create a Frankstein monster you can wave your pitchfork at.

The rejection of some dogmas and formalisms you associate with modernism does not mean that modernists did not preserve certain principles important to realism in their viewpoint or that modernism doesn't have dogmas of its own.

What dogmas and formalisms are you referring to?

If you want case examples look up the criticism against the likes of Sir Walter Scott and James Fenimore Cooper by Mark Twain (who it seems is often classified as a realist despite his varied output) and further supported as seen in the attitude towards them by modernists. I do not think it accidental that that attitude bears uncanny resemblance to the attitude directed towards fantasy.

I'm not aware of any Modernist attitudes towards Scott and Cooper.

Off the top of my head you can add William Safire who refused to read beyond the first because it was for children. The brouhaha over the Whitbread shows these are not isolated views.

It is for children. Safire thinks its a fine kid's book but he thinks adults should read something more challenging. Bloom says basically the same thing but in a more grumpy manner.
 
Grossman argues that Modernists made reading hard because they favored opaque works that lack plot. I agree with this, but disagree with the conclusions he draws from this. You argue that Modernists/Realists are concerned with formalisms, the human condition, and the banalities of everyday life and that they are not worth distinguishing between. The problem is that Realists don't like opaque works. The clearer the message the better, as far as they are concerned. You and Grossman have very different opinions about what modernism means. You graft Modernist and Realist traits together to create a Frankstein monster you can wave your pitchfork at.

Following your rationalization more plot means more clarity means a more realist take. I do not get the sense that is what Grossman is arguing. Realists are not necessary to the argument. You are the only one invoking them and complicating the issue.

Grossman is focusing on a particular aspect of writing: plot. My argument is that this is merely a symptom of a wider state of affairs.

It is for children. Safire thinks its a fine kid's book but he thinks adults should read something more challenging. Bloom says basically the same thing but in a more grumpy manner.

Explain your justification for the above statement and I suspect you should be able to answer

What dogmas and formalisms are you referring to?

It should be noted, if I recall correctly that Bloom was the one who accused Harry Potter of mainly being about "plot, plot, plot".

Logical extrapolation: plot is for children.

I'm not aware of any Modernist attitudes towards Scott and Cooper.
Twain's criticism as a realist should suffice as a substitute. Ergo, realist/modernist is pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned for the purposes of this discussion.
 
As a reader I do not see this as a case of seeking equality which is what your argument implies.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here.

I do not see the need for SFF to try to fit snugly into the modernist worldview.

Neither do I. But some SFF authors will be using modernist style, some won't, just like in any other area of fiction, and neither has to change that.

I do not associate the recent successes of fantasy with a shift to more modernist writing.

Neither do I. Grossman, in trying to make an argument for genre writers, is stuffing them in a box and using the classic script that the reason people like a book has to do with the writing philosophy of that book, and not the numerous other complex factors that cause it, from hit movie adaptations to the work of schoolteachers to the Internet to the symbiotic word-of-mouth nature of the fiction market, etc.

This is in fact the main problem. The culture wars were actually started by social class systems (I agree with Hal Duncan on that,) and how fiction was sold. It continues to be fueled by people concentrating only on great successes -- bestsellers, phenoms, Pulitizer Prize winners -- and not on the whole markets and what happens in them, separately and in relation to great successes, how publishers get people aware of fiction, economic factors, etc. So it becomes that people must like this particular book or gave it a prize because of X -- that one magic formula reason that the media is particularly fond of.

And they make a lot of erroneous assumptions based on selected and misinterpreted data. Grossman was postulating that Twilight and YA has become successful because people now want simple plots. Which is ridiculous. If you know anything about how the YA market has developed over the last twenty years, you know it's ridiculous. Which is part of the reason a lot of the SFF community, which has been long involved with YA, was miffed with him, because they thought he should know better.

The literary establishment has become more accommodating because of popular success.

Again, no, magic formula reason. There are a host of factors that have led to people dropping the culture wars and becoming interested in genre fiction. Popular success and movie adaptations of a handful of books is one factor, but remember, the genre had huge successes and movie adaptations in the 1960's, 1970's, and so on. Suspense used to dominate the bestseller list. Other factors include that the nature of the "literary establishment" has changed. Quite a lot of it are people who grew up with genre, and studied and taught it in high school and college. Then there are changes in how books are marketed, changes in the media, the upsurge of reading book clubs that occurred in the 1990's, and lots of other stuff. That Chabon went around saying my award-winning book is genre and genre is great had a huge effect, in part because the media sucked it up.

Psylent is incorrect in that numerous critics did and do object to Harry Potter. I had to sit through a whole speech by a Tolkein scholar about why Tolkein is lasting literature but Rowling didn't qualify, which I endured with a sigh. And yes, quite a few of them object on the grounds that it is plot-heavy. But they don't really mean plot-heavy. They mean it has violent, suspense action in it. This is an idea that was relatively recent, in fact it developed mainly in the 1980's, not coincidentally when thrillers dominated the bestseller lists. Others object on the grounds that it is YA. These are all scripts, imaginary perceptions. You don't play into a script; you point out why it's imaginary and then ignore it. Which Grossman was trying to do, but he played too into the scripts and made it about the writing in the books, instead of just saying that it's ridiculous to demand that all books be written in the same way to be quality, as some people do.

Owlcroft is still going with the fantasy fans are mostly morons and publishers commercial hacks script, which I am also really tired of, along with the idea that the literary stuff struggles in the gutter, which is incorrect. The culture wars are not between fans who are discerning and read literary SFF put out in general fiction, and SFF publishers that hardly ever do literary SFF and instead cater to those other not discerning fantasy fans who read trash. This particular script is really damaging to a lot of SFF authors.

The book he brings up, Oh Pure and Radiant Heart by Lydia Millet, is published by Mariner Books, which is a trade division of Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, which at this point is largely an educational publisher. HMH doesn't have a SFF imprint, not counting what they do in kids/YA. Therefore the book is marketed just to the general fiction market, and possibly also to the school market.

But if the book was published by HarperCollins in its general fiction imprints, like William Morrow, it would be marketed to the general fiction trade audience and also it would be publicized and marketed through Harper Eos, its SFF imprint. The book would come up if you do a SFF search of their catalog, they'd put it in their email newsletter for Eos, get reviews in SFF media, etc. If they were doing a big enough push, they'd do ads and online ads in SFF places. They did this with Paulo Coelho's The Alchemist and subsequent novel The Witch of Portobello, which were published by their general fiction arm HarperSanFrancisco -- they plastered ads on SFF sites and marketed it relentlessly to fantasy fans through Eos. They moved Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett into William Morrow to market to the general fiction audience, while also doing massive publicity to the SFF audience, and the booksellers will put their works in the SFF section or the general fiction section or both. They maximize as many audiences as they can get. Literary fiction -- whether it's genre or not -- is big business, and they can get anybody to read it. And all those novels, from the Pulitzer Prize winners to the Warhammer tie-ins, are put out largely by the same publishers who use all their resources. Margaret Atwood owes a large chunk of her bestselling sales on her two latest SF novels to those novels being endlessly marketed to SF fans, who have read her despite her belief that they won't be interested -- and who read a ton of general fiction SFF, like Anthony Durham's series, which was also put out in general fiction because he was a historical fiction novelist, but is also considered genre/category.

The writers who are trying to do "literary" works who think using genre elements will damage their career, and those who think it should damage their career or assume it will (much of the media still,) are working from an old script that was always imaginary, and that has no real understanding of how fiction sells and why it appeals to people. It was idiotic in the past, and in our current society, even more idiotic. (A few of them still work in publishing, sadly, but you can often convert them.) They believe in an imaginary war that fewer and fewer people subscribe to, and which looks stupider and stupider as time goes on.

Grossman knows this. As a member of the respectable media who has also written a YA fantasy novel, he's in a good position to contribute to the evidence that believing in the culture wars is stupid. He's trying to show people who subscribe to it that it is stupid, but he did it by trying to build a culture wars argument that he thought might convince them. Which isn't the worse thing in the world. But it would have helped a lot more if he hadn't called all the genre stuff "simplistic."

And it would help if people stopped believing that some books should be labeled "hard" and some books labeled "easy" just because some people subjectively view them as such. It would help if people would stop trying to build two box either/or systems. The two really problematic ones are the idea that literary fiction is an actual, separate country from the rest of fiction with specific criteria, and that genres are separate countries; and the idea that there is high-brow culture and low-brow culture and everything has to be shoved in one category or the other, which is a left-over from our 20th century social classes days.

But I'm not holding my breath. Erosion, though, erosion works. Grossman will help with erosion. Michael Chabon has been an immense help with erosion. Atwood helps with the erosion even though she doesn't know she's doing it. And the more SFF fans we can get to drop the either/or scripts, the better.
 
Following your rationalization more plot means more clarity means a more realist take. I do not get the sense that is what Grossman is arguing. Realists are not necessary to the argument. You are the only one invoking them and complicating the issue.

Grossman is focusing on a particular aspect of writing: plot. My argument is that this is merely a symptom of a wider state of affairs.

It's not what I'm arguing either. I'm invoking the Realists because you keep ascribing Realist traits to the Modernists. As I said before, they are two very different schools of thought.

Explain your justification for the above statement and I suspect you should be able to answer

It should be noted, if I recall correctly that Bloom was the one who accused Harry Potter of mainly being about "plot, plot, plot".

Logical extrapolation: plot is for children.

No, as far as I know Bloom hasn't described Potter as plot, plot, plot. Bloom and Safire both dismiss Potter as a series for children. The author and the publisher both agree that it is for children. Is anyone actually trying to argue that Harry Potter isn't a children's series?

Twain's criticism as a realist should suffice as a substitute. Ergo, realist/modernist is pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned for the purposes of this discussion.

You have that backwards. You consider Modernists/Realists pretty much the same thing and ergo Twain's critique suffices for a Modernist critique.

But Twain's critique of Cooper isn't Modernist at all. Twain attacks Cooper for not knowing woodscraft, for poor editing, for having a tin ear, for being a poor observer, for having bad dialogue, for lack of imagination, and for general stupidity. His critique is not about plot, it is about details.

Realists were interested in approximating reality as much as possible. They were consciously anti-fantasy. Modernism was interested in developing new techniques for expressing reality. Modernism wasn't interested in being realistic, indeed it was even skeptical that a book could be such a thing. So Franz Kafka fits comfortably in with the Modernists but a Realist like William Dean Howells would read his work and say something like "What is this crap?".

Realists have no qualms with accessibility or plot. Indeed these things are good. They merely think that plots should be realistic. Meanwhile, Modernists were questioning everything about conventional writing. Faulkner went ahead and wrote a book with a 50 page sentence; screw conventional grammar. Modernists decided that plot and accessibility could be done away with just like grammar.

Realism had two main aims (a) be realistic, (b) make an important point. A Modernist mainstay like Thomas Pynchon's V. does neither of these things.

In short, if hard, plotless, opaque novels are now the definition of literature then there was a fight between Modernism and Realism which Modernism won. Realism had its throat slit and Modernism quietly dumped the body in the river.

Edit: I should add that this isn't actually how literature works. Different schools of thought get riffed on and played with. One school is never completely dominate.
 
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Psylent is incorrect in that numerous critics did and do object to Harry Potter. I had to sit through a whole speech by a Tolkein scholar about why Tolkein is lasting literature but Rowling didn't qualify, which I endured with a sigh.

I'm not incorrect, you're just not following my argument. Bond made some extravagant claims about what "most" critics think. I pointed out that I'd read one critic that disliked Potter and several that liked it. In other words, I think most critics actually like Potter.
 
I'm not incorrect, you're just not following my argument. Bond made some extravagant claims about what "most" critics think. I pointed out that I'd read one critic that disliked Potter and several that liked it. In other words, I think most critics actually like Potter.

I'm following your argument, I'm just disagreeing with it. A lot of critics don't like Harry Potter. A lot of critics do. Of the ones who don't, some don't like it because it's fantasy (genre,) some because it's children's, and some because it has an action plot (i.e. is their definition of commercial fiction, not literary, which they regard as two different camps.) And some don't think the writing is very good in it. Some of these arguments are shared by SFF media critics.

But many critics and scholars also do think the writing is good and that the series is literary. And so indeed there are not two armed camps, neatly divided, with genre on the one side and the literary establishment (which doesn't exist as a cohesive, unanimous body,) on the other.

I like your description of Realists and Modernists. And no, none of the schools of thoughts were dominant. Writers and critics and scholars argue too much for that. Chabon, though, suggested that the plot is bad bit came to the fore in the 1980's, and that's certainly when it seems to pop up frequently. But again, not a cohesive philosophy -- just something that people sometimes said.
 
And then there's . . . .

A response to Grossman that I haven't seen cited yet is the lengthy and--I think--excellent one on Matthew Cheney's worthy Mumpsimus blog, titled It's a Plot! It includes links to a number of related (and useful) sources and comments.
 
Yes, Cheney's piece was very well written, though not lengthy, or not as lengthy as Andrew Seal's to which Cheney links, which was also pretty thorough. But I thought they were both a little hard on Grossman. But they neatly sum up the exasperation of the community towards an apologist stance for SFF and genre in general -- and the assumptions about the intelligence of its fans that comes with it.


That would be Les Grossman, you silly knickett.

At the 2009 Dragon Con, 900 people, including zombies, pirates and superheroes, danced to Michael Jackson's Thriller to try and set a new Guiness World Record. This is a video of the rehearsal, in which the best dancer shown is arguably the person in the pretty sweet Alien costume. Note that there are also kids, and people with grey hair. If you don't get why this is art and a celebration of art, well then, you're not ready to set aside the culture wars. And the rest of us will ignore you. Go Dragon Con dancers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4aE__sxMmQ
 
Haha, Kat wouldn't it be a bit bizarre and ironic if I couldn't read, being on this site and all?
 
Let's put it this way Fitzchivalry. Professional writers usually graduate from some English course in university. Having studied the subject for a number of years there is an expectation that such a person is an expert with the English language. The question is what does that mean? How does studying language and literature translate into expertise over the regular Joe that didn't? In a certain sense to justify their discipline, writers, literary critics, teachers, and other former English majors have created this concept called "literature" which is basically a collection of works that exemplify mastery of what they studied and were taught. Most of this pertains to subtlety, dexterity, and efficiency in the use of language, and with Modernist dogma in mind, is usually something about the "human condition". Keeping this in mind it is important to note the emphasis on style and form.

Genre writers are a threat to this literary establishment because in general genres do not emphasize or place a premium on language. They put more of a premium on content. A physicist writing science fiction might not write prettily but might more than make up for it in mind-blowing imagination and in the manipulation of technical ideas and concepts that would leave the poor English major beyond his/her ken. This probably explains the reluctance of the literary establishment to embracing genre and the resulting friction. The metrics they use in determining and judging "literature" are simply not up to the task for measuring genre works on the genre's own terms.

I believe that is exactly right, and so does H.L. Mencken. He wrote an amusing essay on this issue, but I can't remember the title of it.
 
I'm following your argument, I'm just disagreeing with it. A lot of critics don't like Harry Potter. A lot of critics do. Of the ones who don't, some don't like it because it's fantasy (genre,) some because it's children's, and some because it has an action plot (i.e. is their definition of commercial fiction, not literary, which they regard as two different camps.) And some don't think the writing is very good in it. Some of these arguments are shared by SFF media critics.

But many critics and scholars also do think the writing is good and that the series is literary. And so indeed there are not two armed camps, neatly divided, with genre on the one side and the literary establishment (which doesn't exist as a cohesive, unanimous body,) on the other.

What's interesting to me about the whole debate is that aside from people that say "it promotes witchcraft. Burn it!" I've seen very little nastiness towards the books. More or less everyone, by which I mean the critics, are in agreement that they're serviceable children's books.

Criticism mainly falls under two categories:
1) nice kids' books but there are better
2) They're kids books. Adults should be reading adult books.

The only critic that actually disses Potter hard is Harold Bloom, and he dislikes 99% of all books and thinks there is only about ten authors currently working that are worth reading.

I don't think I've seen any serious discussion of Harry Potter as big L literature but I'd imagine that's because it obviously isn't Literature.
 
It's not what I'm arguing either. I'm invoking the Realists because you keep ascribing Realist traits to the Modernists. As I said before, they are two very different schools of thought.

Communists and fascists are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They hate each other. But if I was to say that for the purposes of my argument that extremism is a danger to a liberal democracy you could substitute either one and it would make no difference and you'd understand yes? Same thing.

No, as far as I know Bloom hasn't described Potter as plot, plot, plot.
Sorry, it was Robert McCrum.

Bloom and Safire both dismiss Potter as a series for children. The author and the publisher both agree that it is for children. Is anyone actually trying to argue that Harry Potter isn't a children's series?
The question is should that matter? Who says? Why? Will they say the same of Alice in Wonderland? Why or why not?

You have that backwards. You consider Modernists/Realists pretty much the same thing and ergo Twain's critique suffices for a Modernist critique.
Read my earlier reply above. You can use a realist value system. You can use a modernist value system. I consider both inadequate.

But Twain's critique of Cooper isn't Modernist at all. Twain attacks Cooper for not knowing woodscraft, for poor editing, for having a tin ear, for being a poor observer, for having bad dialogue, for lack of imagination, and for general stupidity. His critique is not about plot, it is about details.
Basically "for not being realistic".

Realists were interested in approximating reality as much as possible. They were consciously anti-fantasy. Modernism was interested in developing new techniques for expressing reality. Modernism wasn't interested in being realistic, indeed it was even skeptical that a book could be such a thing. So Franz Kafka fits comfortably in with the Modernists but a Realist like William Dean Howells would read his work and say something like "What is this crap?".

Realists have no qualms with accessibility or plot. Indeed these things are good. They merely think that plots should be realistic. Meanwhile, Modernists were questioning everything about conventional writing. Faulkner went ahead and wrote a book with a 50 page sentence; screw conventional grammar. Modernists decided that plot and accessibility could be done away with just like grammar.

Modernism questions conventional writing. What's more traditional than a story of a hero on a quest? Modernism revels in being ambiguous and obscure. Fables have a history of being simple and instructive. Modernism is generally self-conscious, internally reflective, cynical, and nihilistic. Fantasy has often been about projecting oneself into a different idealized reality. Modernists consider escapism a dirty word. For many fantasy readers that's the entire point.

Realism had two main aims (a) be realistic, (b) make an important point. A Modernist mainstay like Thomas Pynchon's V. does neither of these things.

As I understand modernism, it is still preoccupied about finding meaning, it is still about making a point even if its point is there is no point.

Haven't read Pynchon, so I wouldn't know what you're trying to say. Even less when I look him up and see he's associated more with postmodernism.

Edit: I should add that this isn't actually how literature works. Different schools of thought get riffed on and played with. One school is never completely dominate.
Yes but the realist/modernist cabal pretty much dominates the "literary" apparatus.

2) They're kids books. Adults should be reading adult books.
[...]
I don't think I've seen any serious discussion of Harry Potter as big L literature but I'd imagine that's because it obviously isn't Literature.

(2) and the last statement are actually short form for please refer to dogma. They dismiss and do not discuss, because it is "obvious".
 
Communists and fascists are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They hate each other.

Though they hate each other, they're in the same band of the political spectrum - highly centralized, bureaucratic, authoritarian rule. Left of center, you get more government control and authority. Right of center, you get less government control and authority. Communism and fascism are extreme constructs of the left of center. Anarachists are the extreme faction from right of center. Sorry to nitpick, but I hear the above often enough to realize people, unquestioningly, believe that it's true.
 

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