Around December I tend to head for either collections of ghost stories or of mystery stories, partly because I find it easier to concentrate on short stories/novellas during the hectic holidays.
Randy M.
Horror Jag?
- Thread starter Matt H.
- Start date
Around December I tend to head for either collections of ghost stories or of mystery stories, partly because I find it easier to concentrate on short stories/novellas during the hectic holidays.
Randy M.
It's funny & true. Most people either love (I'm in this camp) or hate Lovecraft. Very few are indifferent.
Speaking of Lovecraft here is a link to a podcast with a modern retelling of "The Whisperer in Darkness" & "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" presented by the BBC. I enjoyed it.
Hmmm... Ok, but note the response has nothing to do with HPL's politics.
I'll leave it at, boy do I disagree with everything except your last paragraph.
Randy M.
(P.S.: I'm smiling as I type because this pretty much examplifies of the extreme reactions HPL incites among readers.)
In fairness though, did I just miss the plot tie-in with the missing man, sled, dog, the dissected parts, garments, etc? Maybe I did miss it.
A portion of my response was especially subjective taste, sure.. but a lot of it too can be sited with examples to prove my point. There is extreme repetition in there I don't think you can deny it. For me, that weakens the story as a whole. Has great bits, though. I didn't deny that.
Thanks, Oberon! I've read already The Alchemist, Azathoth, The Beast in the Cave, Beyond the Wall of Sleep, and maybe you'll be surprised to hear, but I can see a lot of excellence and poetry in there.
He is capable of a superb, Poesque style. Some of this is in Mountains of Madness, but it will be just a passage in an artistically troubled whole. Both Alchemist and Beast in the Cave, have a little too old fashioned endings, but in there is some great, great prose too. Azathoth shows what high prose poetry he is capable of. Beyond the Wall of Sleep is the best one so far of the bunch --as a story.
I like to do the same, especially late at night by the fire... sipping a glass of Amontillado, strange shadows flickering in the dark corners of my mossy manse.
Yes, winter is also a cozy, indoor time made for tales, ghost or otherwise.
P.S. Made a couple light tune-ups to Lovecraft review, still basically the same, but very slightly toned down.
Liking the M.R. James stories -- old fashioned, but devliver a nice gory payload with reliability.
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I wasn't referring to HPL's politics and especially not his biases. His writing -- both prose and authorial choices -- divide readers. Some love it, some can't stand it. Where you see bugs, I see features.
Nice review, Randy! I guess I found a lot of the things you didn't like about "Shadow" in the text of "Mountains." Again, nothing wrong with "external bolstering", I think we mostly disagree on how much is too much. That goes for other aspects too. I think "lost narrative momentum by... straining to sell his premise" is a great description of a large part of my analysis. On the creatures themselves, the back-story, (I will even say Antarctic setting) we agree they are highly original and memorable.
(added) Does anyone know precisely the what and why of the sled, man, dog, dissection pieces, garment pieces, equipment, etc? Maybe we learn it in a succeeding story? The Old Ones were studying them? Didn't catch it in the narrative. Up soon is "Chuluthu"... Wonder should I expect more of the same? Look forward to checking it out.
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I thought the implication was, as a race of scientists, the Old Ones had dissected these odd new (to them) critters that had disturbed their hibernation.
After thought: I'm pretty sure that HPL valued the intellectual over the emotional, no matter how much of his own behavior and views were based on emotional rather than intellectual reasons. So he doesn't really condemn the dissections though he's a smart enough writer to have the other humans appropriately appalled. (Of course, at least a few of the Old Ones probably woke up with scalpels trying to cut them to figure out what they were, so I suppose there's a "turnabout is fair play" justification.)
After thought: I'm pretty sure that HPL valued the intellectual over the emotional, no matter how much of his own behavior and views were based on emotional rather than intellectual reasons. So he doesn't really condemn the dissections though he's a smart enough writer to have the other humans appropriately appalled. (Of course, at least a few of the Old Ones probably woke up with scalpels trying to cut them to figure out what they were, so I suppose there's a "turnabout is fair play" justification.)
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Thanks for that background. I intuited that it was something like that. Here's what bugs me a little though, the scene at Lake's camp was an object of horror, yes, but there was such a large emphasis on puzzlement, sleuthing, and specifics, like "salting", garment fragments... But the puzzle was left unsolved. I guess it could just represent creepy stuff done, but we don't know exactly what...?
Btw, thanks for pointing out the 2014 thread linked above with all those responses/reviews. Thank you for doing those. Will check them out in detail, once I read those books.
(added) I think some of my Chambers responses are (gulp) not going to be popular. I'm a horror philistine, no respect! lol But seriously, I hope to support my conclusions with fairness as well as examples. It's not always about old-fashioned or not old-fashioned. There are rules of good writing that transcend time-period.
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I think reactions to humor and horror tend to be even more subjective than some other genres. What makes me laugh is a shrug for someone else; ditto what makes me shiver. Our aesthetic reactions differ, too. The build up that works for me may not for you. The King in Yellow, original story collection, contains ~6 supernatural stories and a few that weren't. Of the supernatural ones, a couple were standouts, a couple were entertaining.
Randy, true what you said. Btw, just one more story to finish in the Chambers collection. I think I'll do a response to "Court of the Dragon", "Demoiselle dYs"... Hate to say it, but I wish the King in Yellow theme had had its *own* story. As it is, in pretty much every one of these stories it feels "glaumed on", Not say it's not cool or scary, but it doesn't relate to the bulk of the plot in every tale it's within! (perhaps excepting "Repairer")
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Re: King in Yellow. I think you're right. But like early s.f., this sort of tale was evolving. Poe-like prose plus Ambrose Bierce like imaginings in "An Inhabitant of Carcosa" and Chambers cursed book coalesce into something else in Lovecraft.
Randy M.
Story Responses -- 7 Pillars of Horror Part I
Robert Chambers, from The King in Yellow and Other Horror Stories
Is the Ux Extinct?
Posted 11/04/2020 (v 1.3)
Though part of the Chambers collection, this is not a horror story. But within it’s type (Science Fiction farce), it’s perhaps the best of the Chambers tales. It certainly was the most fun to read, and actually delivered a substantial, physical “laugh-out-loud.” But what’s more fickle and subjective -- what scares or what makes you laugh? It’s a toss-up, I’d say. Your mileage may vary.
It’s an easy story to follow and grasp, with simple nicely interlocking themes and logic. You know something crazy is going to happen, but you don’t know what and it's fun. For me it didn’t disappoint. It concerns a young scientist at a prestigious scientific conference who is persuaded (by his own amorousness) to champion the presentation of a beautiful Duchess. The Duchess proclaims that the Tasmanian Ux (Moa, perhaps?) is not extinct. This is considered a scientifically ludicrous claim, and the narrator’s reputation could suffer a fatal blow. As he pursues the Duchess and her scientific evidence, the proof is unveiled in a most absurd and ridiculous way in the final, crazy, slapstick scene. The best thing about the tale is its assault on pomposity, especially that of royalty, as well as it’s criticism of arrogant stuffy scientific establishment.
As in other tales of Chambers, he makes it pretty clear that the narrator is basically out for sex. Or course considering the time and audience, it is dressed up to the necessary extent as “love.” One can point out sexism and even misogyny in there, though, you feel the narrator in part, got what he deserved regarding the love interest. The final postscript reveals that yes, the narrator is out for sex. But he will find it elsewhere.
Robert Chambers, from The King in Yellow and Other Horror Stories
Is the Ux Extinct?
Posted 11/04/2020 (v 1.3)
Keywords: Science Fiction, Humor, Traditional science; Science as cause, Scientific conference, Zoology; Crypto-zoology; Zoo-Brooklyn, Female-love interest, Egg, Birds-extinct, Royalty-European, Labor union; Humorous post-script, Thrill of scientific discovery, Scientifc reputation, Smithsonian, Scientists-aristocratic, Scientist-female
Though part of the Chambers collection, this is not a horror story. But within it’s type (Science Fiction farce), it’s perhaps the best of the Chambers tales. It certainly was the most fun to read, and actually delivered a substantial, physical “laugh-out-loud.” But what’s more fickle and subjective -- what scares or what makes you laugh? It’s a toss-up, I’d say. Your mileage may vary.
It’s an easy story to follow and grasp, with simple nicely interlocking themes and logic. You know something crazy is going to happen, but you don’t know what and it's fun. For me it didn’t disappoint. It concerns a young scientist at a prestigious scientific conference who is persuaded (by his own amorousness) to champion the presentation of a beautiful Duchess. The Duchess proclaims that the Tasmanian Ux (Moa, perhaps?) is not extinct. This is considered a scientifically ludicrous claim, and the narrator’s reputation could suffer a fatal blow. As he pursues the Duchess and her scientific evidence, the proof is unveiled in a most absurd and ridiculous way in the final, crazy, slapstick scene. The best thing about the tale is its assault on pomposity, especially that of royalty, as well as it’s criticism of arrogant stuffy scientific establishment.
As in other tales of Chambers, he makes it pretty clear that the narrator is basically out for sex. Or course considering the time and audience, it is dressed up to the necessary extent as “love.” One can point out sexism and even misogyny in there, though, you feel the narrator in part, got what he deserved regarding the love interest. The final postscript reveals that yes, the narrator is out for sex. But he will find it elsewhere.
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Is the Ux Extinct? actually gave me a better laugh that anything I've read for a while. Perhaps it was partly a release from too many M.R. James stories.
Those James stories can be very, very dry! I was a little too hasty in saying in a post above that he delivers a reliable payoff. He's a writer whose works you can almost easily divide into boring and not-so-boring.
He's a clever plot-maker, and *often* gives gory or creepy payoffs, but jeepers, he's soooo churchy, chatty, narrow and stuffy! Seems there's so much that doen't contribute to the final effect... Maybe that's partly wrong, but he's far and away (overall, and with some stories excepted) the least accessible of the 7!
Those James stories can be very, very dry! I was a little too hasty in saying in a post above that he delivers a reliable payoff. He's a writer whose works you can almost easily divide into boring and not-so-boring.
He's a clever plot-maker, and *often* gives gory or creepy payoffs, but jeepers, he's soooo churchy, chatty, narrow and stuffy! Seems there's so much that doen't contribute to the final effect... Maybe that's partly wrong, but he's far and away (overall, and with some stories excepted) the least accessible of the 7!
Three observations:
1) Most stories, and maybe especially at that time, weren't written with the thought of reading one after another, after another ... and doing so offers a condensed view of the writers quirks and habits and short-comings. This might be one of the hazards of choosing story collections, although this drawback may apply to some writers more than to others.
2) About your criticism, isn't that really about your preference for narration? Given his generation and that the stories were written to be read aloud, I would guess James was drawn to a Dickensian narration. Further, that chattiness could be very amusing, especially with a skilled reader. (Not to mention, he was offering it to an audience whose attention span was rather longer than a Tik-Tok video. -- Yeah! I'm lookin' at you, you kids out there who aren't paying any attention to me! Darn right!)
Tangentially: I find the chattiness in many of his stories -- and maybe most in "Oh, Whistle ..." -- is the face of a kind of glee in what he's narrating. I find his pleasure in puncturing the sang froid of the professor in that story is contagious.
3) James was 5 years older than Benson. But doesn't it seem like they should be at least a generation apart? James reads very late 1890s, early 1900s; Benson, for me, reads like one of the bright boys of the 1920s, even in some of his stories written before then.
1) Most stories, and maybe especially at that time, weren't written with the thought of reading one after another, after another ... and doing so offers a condensed view of the writers quirks and habits and short-comings. This might be one of the hazards of choosing story collections, although this drawback may apply to some writers more than to others.
2) About your criticism, isn't that really about your preference for narration? Given his generation and that the stories were written to be read aloud, I would guess James was drawn to a Dickensian narration. Further, that chattiness could be very amusing, especially with a skilled reader. (Not to mention, he was offering it to an audience whose attention span was rather longer than a Tik-Tok video. -- Yeah! I'm lookin' at you, you kids out there who aren't paying any attention to me! Darn right!)
Tangentially: I find the chattiness in many of his stories -- and maybe most in "Oh, Whistle ..." -- is the face of a kind of glee in what he's narrating. I find his pleasure in puncturing the sang froid of the professor in that story is contagious.
3) James was 5 years older than Benson. But doesn't it seem like they should be at least a generation apart? James reads very late 1890s, early 1900s; Benson, for me, reads like one of the bright boys of the 1920s, even in some of his stories written before then.
Thanks Randy! Glad you engaged on the subject.
Excellent point about the overdose effect - reading them end-to-end-to-end. On the other hand I've read a lot of nineteenth century novels and (I thought at least) I have a moderately high-tolerance for "old-fashioned" writing that unfolds at a much more leisurely pace and perhaps with much more "decoration". Maybe I failed to realize that writing (at least one strand or school) was getting *more* indirect not less, as one might predict.
I recently did a quick review scan of both Poe and Irving, and it looks like these writers were
(added) Nice point too about Benson. To me, he is also old-fashioned,conventional often, digressive, ocassionaly a bit clunky - but his prose is ultimately more direct, and his themes are far deeper as well as his characterization.
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Yes, but there's old-fashioned and oooold-fashioned. I take your point about Irving, and I'd say something similar about Hawthorne (though it's been awhile since I read him and may be misremembering), but Poe takes me some pages to get into if I haven't read him in some time. I start a story and sometimes have to restart it after a few pages, needing the first attempt to acclimate myself. I'm thinking specifically of the opening paragraphs to "The Murders in the Rue Morgue."
I would -- and have -- compared James to Agatha Christie. For what he's writing, character development past a bit of stereotyping usually isn't necessary. What attracts readers -- at least some of them -- is the inventiveness and tone of the writing.
This brings to mind something I didn't think to mention earlier in this thread. The approach to the ghost story bifurcated around this time. M. R. James wrote it as a kind of game with the scare the payoff; meanwhile that other James boy, Henry, was writing ghost stories with a psychological edge to them. Both admired the works of Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu; M. R. edited a collection of his work after it had fallen out of print for some time and Henry wrote of his appreciation for stories he enjoyed reading in "the hours after midnight" (a phrase I recall because I own a Le Fanu collection with that title). Both branches can be traced back to Le Fanu. Something like "Mr. Justice Harbottle" leans toward the M. R. James story; meanwhile one of his most famous, "Green Tea" seems very much a precursor to Henry.
I would -- and have -- compared James to Agatha Christie. For what he's writing, character development past a bit of stereotyping usually isn't necessary. What attracts readers -- at least some of them -- is the inventiveness and tone of the writing.
This brings to mind something I didn't think to mention earlier in this thread. The approach to the ghost story bifurcated around this time. M. R. James wrote it as a kind of game with the scare the payoff; meanwhile that other James boy, Henry, was writing ghost stories with a psychological edge to them. Both admired the works of Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu; M. R. edited a collection of his work after it had fallen out of print for some time and Henry wrote of his appreciation for stories he enjoyed reading in "the hours after midnight" (a phrase I recall because I own a Le Fanu collection with that title). Both branches can be traced back to Le Fanu. Something like "Mr. Justice Harbottle" leans toward the M. R. James story; meanwhile one of his most famous, "Green Tea" seems very much a precursor to Henry.
Great stuff, Randy. Rue Morgue is one of the longer Poe stories, but I don't recall the opening, will trust what you said. though.
It's a complex question, Poe certainly has a version of that same "outer-framing" that MRJ does. But it's hard to imagine MRJ writing anything as direct as the Tell-Tale Heart. You can't discount the length of the tale as a factor, longer tales have a more leisurely intro and exposition, which makes sense.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
With a modest Amazon order, I can get a mini-library of a few key Gothic/Early horror stuff - Walpole, Polidori, Le Fanu, Gaskill, et al. Looking forward to it. Will be fun to check out work closer to the roots. Of course, ugh every writer has antecedents, which sends you back to Gilgamesh! Walpole with be my starting point, gotta draw the line somewhere.
It's a complex question, Poe certainly has a version of that same "outer-framing" that MRJ does. But it's hard to imagine MRJ writing anything as direct as the Tell-Tale Heart. You can't discount the length of the tale as a factor, longer tales have a more leisurely intro and exposition, which makes sense.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
With a modest Amazon order, I can get a mini-library of a few key Gothic/Early horror stuff - Walpole, Polidori, Le Fanu, Gaskill, et al. Looking forward to it. Will be fun to check out work closer to the roots. Of course, ugh every writer has antecedents, which sends you back to Gilgamesh! Walpole with be my starting point, gotta draw the line somewhere.
I read The Castle of Otranto as a teen. I think I was around 16, it was summer and I had this terrific compendium of Otranto and Ann Radcliffe's The Mysteries of Udolfo, among others, that I picked up for the whopping total cost of $1.25!
Anyway, if you feel you must start with Walpole, you have my sympathy. Fortunately, it's short. As is Vathek, which you might find leads more directly to the work of Clark Ashton Smith, or so I've heard. I remember Vathek as interesting up to the last quarter or so, and then it became truly gripping, the ending phantasmagoric.
Polidori? Are you thinking of the group holiday that produced Frankenstein and of which Polidori was a member? His story is seminal. Also, as I recall dull, but not as much so as Walpole's Otranto and it's short, too.
I need to read Gaskell, myself. Have only read "The Old Nurse's Story" and that quite some time ago. And I'd like to get back to Le Fanu. Maybe when I finish the mystery collection I'm reading now. Le Fanu would be good reading for December and the holidays.
Anyway, enjoy, and you're right not to drop down the rabbit hole of antecedents.
Randy M.
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