Just curious

[Pirate Jenn]

So much to respond to. (y'all ask too many questions! )

Originally posted by Blizzaurel
A question for the Christians: any comments on the recent priest scandals? I mean, aren't they supposed to be chosen by God?

And what about other ministers and such that are terrible people? God must be fallible if he could allow such people to preach his holy word...

Priest scandals: Not Catholic myself, so I don't know if they view each priest as chosen by God. Even within the Bible (both in Israelite times and in the early church), there were men and women who were both false teachers and false prophets. You can tell a false prophet and a false teacher by his/her actions ("a wolf in sheep's clothing"). These are wicked things.

But, then, no one gets their panties in a bunch when the local businessman gets caught in the same act--it doesn't make the headlines.

God is not fallible for allowing these people to preach his word--these people are fallible. Huge difference. God doesn't force people to behave: we each are responsible for our own actions. God does hate what they do and, when the time comes, they'll get it.

The problem, really, is in a laity that believes the clergy (and their families!) to be infallible. What happened in the church should have stopped long ago--but people revere their clergy too much, forgetting that the clergy are human as well. (My husband is going through ordination...and the shift in our friends' behavior is noticeable)

Aik Haw-- Your question is interesting. I suppose that I enjoy my individuality too much to think that becoming one with some big entity is good. Sounds like the Borg of Start Trek fame--don't wanna join a collective.

But I recognize the impulse that the desire comes out of. Have had many experience of peace and wholeness--and I can't discredit the beauty of such a thing in that sense. Just wouldn't want to give up myself in that sense.

As for becomming gods...well, we all know the myths. A hundred million opinionated, individualist-oriented deities, flitting about the universe getting into arguments with each other sounds... hmm. Exciting. Yes, exciting, but not like a very restful eternity.

Shar'lai--
My professor, BTW, often says that the most devout Christians of the early church were pagan.

As to inconsistencies: many things that appear to be inconsistencies are not. One classic thing often argued in the church is good works over faith alone. Paul said that we needed faith only and James said that works are important--so the argument goes. Technically, what James said is "Faith without works is dead," which is easily reconciled. Faith is the only thing needed, but if works do not flow out of it, then the faith is dead. The Bible is a riddle of careful paradoxes like this.

Now...as to the gospels, they are stylized narratives. Each book is structured around a theme as the author tried to draw certain parallels between Christ's ministry and various forfathers. Mark focuses on mystery, Matthew focuses on Jesus' Davidic ties. The authors used known materials to make up their narratives. Nothing unusual about this--every religious book has structure to it.

Gardener is right that Mary had other children (but, outside of Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox tradition, most Christians do not believe in any imaculate conception). As to the other things...doubtful. We don't even know if Mary Magdalene was a prostitute--the woman in the 'throw the first stone' account wasn't even named.

And, YES, the King James is a terrible translation! It sounds lovely, but it's a stylized English translation of a translation--bound to be some flaws...esp with the political bent of BA. Modern translations are much better, though, because we continue to learn more about the language through the examination of other documents from the period. Scholarship is changing--and, as this is a matter that can REALLY set me off :sheeping grin:: ), I won't go on any more.
Except to say...
There's been some recent (Suberb!!!) scholarship by one NT Wright. His book *The New Testament and the People of God* gives a detailed overview of the scholarship (most of the best, until Wright, has not been done by Christians) surrounding each book. I highly recommend it, if you're interested in source criticism. He's extremely balanced. Wright doesn't pretend to have the answers (partly why he's such a brilliant scholar), but his survey of the sundry theories about textual criticism/redaction criticism, etc., is extensive. Oh, and the best thing about Wright is that he doesn't claim to be "objective"--in fact, he says that, in matters of religion, it is impossible to be so. (we all have an opinion about the Bible, true?)

Ok. This student should be writing book reviews.
Honestly, I don't feel attacked by anyone and don't feel that anyone's lashed out in particular. Still feel good about y'all.

 

[Shar'lai]

Is is so new that Jesus had two brothers? Read NT!! It is not hidden!!

Yes, information has come to light that shows Joseph of Arimathea, not to be Jesus' uncle, but his brother James. To quote directly from the articles I have read ...

In fact, Joseph of Arimathea was none other than Jesus Christ's own brother, James, and his title had nothing whatever to with a place name. Arimathea never existed. It therefore comes as no surprise that Joseph negotiated with Pilate to place Jesus in his own family tomb.

The hereditary "Arimathea" title was an English corruption of the Graeco-Hebrew style ha-Rama-Theo, meaning "of the Divine Highness", or "of the Royal Highness" as we'd define it today. Since Jesus was the senior Messianic heir-the Christ, Khristos or King-then his younger brother was the Crown Prince-the Royal Highness, Rama-Theo. In the Nazarene hierarchy, the Crown Prince always held the patriarchal title of "Joseph"-just as Jesus was a titular "David" and his wife was a "Mary".

From a lecture presented by
Sir Laurence Gardner, Kt St Gm, KCD
Author of Bloodline of the Holy Grail
at The Ranch, Yelm, Washington, USA
30 April 1997

I am not sure who the other brother is, perhaps you could enlighten me?

 

[Shar'lai]

Pirate Jenn, thank you. I will be sure to look for NT Wright's book. This has always been a topic of great interest to me.

 

[kegasaurus]

Originally posted by Sammie
Totally agree with all this (especially the beer!).........except the bit about 'emphasising'...........i think perhaps you mean 'empathise'?? - i which case i'm with you ALL the way .

The things one writes when his head is clearly up his a*&e.
Empathy is the word

^Emphasised

As for scandals throughout the churches, mayhap this is god telling the world that maybe religion might not be the way to go. Just an opinion, so please don't kill me.

 

[saintjon]

Well, that's specifically why I avoid organized religion at this point in my life. If I could find some people who see things pretty much the same way as I do, that would be great, but I still wouldn't feel the need to build a temple or anything. Why should I feel a need to celebrate my spirituality? That implies that I'm only doing it for special events. I celebrate my spirituality just by being the person I am and holding the beliefs I do.

I've gotta warn you though, Shan, your way of understanding Christ is a dangerous one. He sounds kind of childish, saying, "Well, I'm here to save all humanity and preach the equality of everyone in the eyes of God, but only if give me all the credit." The self-important need to say, "My way or the highway" just doesn't gel with the rest of his vibe IMO. Then taking it further, you say this is alright because he's the Son of God and even further you say he's the son of god because he says so.

Well, I'm not trying to dump on your beliefs or anything, but I'm concerned you're going to come up dry someday, thinking like that. Kind of builds a superiority paradigm, which implies something like, "So much for that whole meek thing!"

Anyways, you do what you gotta do.

As for Blizz's comment, if God were to come and smite everyone who does something wrong, wouldn't that absolve us of the duty for morality? We would only be good because we were afraid of the consequences. I would rather respect a figure like God than fear him. I find I respect God more as an imperfect being too, and so much of what is said of him makes more sense. But anyway, I'll go into that if someone asks.

 

[fluffy bunny]

Here's one for the atheists if god exists. At one point, I was of the opinion- if it's a god of love,(s)he'll forgive those who don't believe in him/her/it (after all how were they supposed to know). If it's a vengeful god who'll punish people for being ignorant- that's a god I don't want to worship and won't.

We all worship in our own ways.

 

[kegasaurus]

Originally posted by fluffy bunny

"It's easy to find things worth dying for. Can you find anything worth living for?"

Generally the things worth dying for are the things worth living for. Is this the answer to the riddle?

 

[fluffy bunny]

erm... it wasn't meant to be a riddle, but if it was, I'd be forced to say:

good answer

 

[kegasaurus]

Why am I laughing so hard right now? Must be the Aluminium poisoning from the beer can.

 

[Sammie]

Originally posted by fluffy bunny
Here's one for the atheists if god exists. At one point, I was of the opinion- if it's a god of love,(s)he'll forgive those who don't believe in him/her/it (after all how were they supposed to know). If it's a vengeful god who'll punish people for being ignorant- that's a god I don't want to worship and won't.

have also been through that thought....

My current conclusion is thus (and this is seriously just me - certainly not intended to offend anyone who has faith): Who am i to say whether or not there is a 'supreme being' (or even a whole bunch of them) who created this world - certainly science has difficulty explaining it.......BUT, if there is an omnipotent, omniscient God watching over us all.........he certainly doesn't deserve my adulation. And the more time i spend in hospitals (and this is in the developed world...), the more sure i am of this.

Originally posted by fluffy bunny
"It's easy to find things worth dying for. Can you find anything worth living for?"

Everything!

 

[milamber_reborn]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fluffy bunny
"It's easy to find things worth dying for. Can you find anything worth living for?"
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Life (and writing)


I'll say now that I have a lack of knowledge when it comes to religion.

Is it stated in any texts as to the nature of God(s)? ie. if Christ believes he is the the agent of God, does he provide evidence of God's existence to help spread His words? If not, then it leads me to believe that maybe he did not know this himself. Whilst I cannot say one way or the other if Christ etc. exist, I believe that all Gods of all religions are one and the same, an ethereal being. Which begs the question, which someone bought up, as to the bias towards the male gender.

 

[Shar'lai]

And this is where my thinking could get to a point where some will start thinking that I am crazy too.

When it comes down to the bottom line, we die because we are meant to. The Mother merely provides the vehicle, but that is not all she does. I have always believed that there is a Divine Creator, and there is Mother Earth. She is a living breathing entity separate to the Creator in every way.

So what does that make us? To her we are merely a bad parasite infestation.

She is not a 'god' and can only do what she can to remove the cause of her discomfort. We pollute her skies, we rape her land, so she gives us droughts that lead to famine, she gives us floods and other natural disasters. Most of them result in the loss of life. But she knows that this is not enough, so she has an arsenal of diseases, and virii that she knows will trigger in certain people because our lifestyles.

Everytime we create a cure, she gives us something stronger. Sometimes humanity plays a part in it, sometimes is all her coaxing little bacteria and virii to evolve into newer, stronger versions. She also does not have to worry in a lot of circumstances because humanity seem to kill themselves of a lot without her aid.

I do not believe in a GOD that is just, and will forgive us for our sins. I believe we have a Creator out there somewhere, who is watching, and waiting to see it we can evolve in a way that will allow us to be with it.

The Creator gives us life only. Methinks the way we die is in the hands of the Fates, the Mother, and also sadly, in the hands of our own kind. We all make choices that impact on our mental, physical, and spiritual health ... usually, those choices also lead us to the means in which we shall depart.

 

[Pirate Jenn]

Mmm! I like that question (the male gender one).

Well. ::cracking fingers:: Now having access to the Hebrew... there's an interesting thing about how people are introduced in Genesis. "God created man. Male and female he created them." So: man is supposed to be genderless. And, in the Hebrew, it is. There are many places that SHOULD read "human" instead of "man." During the early church, in a time when women were excluded from the Jewish temple, women were included within the church--they prophesied, were church leaders, and major figures within the church. How that changed, I have no idea--but it didn't start out that way.

saintjon Well, that's specifically why I avoid organized religion at this point in my life. If I could find some people who see things pretty much the same way as I do, that would be great, but I still wouldn't feel the need to build a temple or anything. Why should I feel a need to celebrate my spirituality? That implies that I'm only doing it for special events. I celebrate my spirituality just by being the person I am and holding the beliefs I do.

You are wonderful.
This is something that I (and some friends) have become pretty passionate about, lately. You are completely right that celebrating once weekly implies special events. (Sabbath--why people go to church supposedly--is supposed to be a day of rest, not the one day you pray to your god) Being and believing is what it's about--it's what's true about us, at any rate. That is grokking.

 

[kegasaurus]

Ahh the male/female thing.

I always thought the two beings are an all encompassing consciousness and the universe itself. One provides the soul while the gives the matter.

In the spirit of Solaar:

Kegasaurus

As deep as the second dimension.

 

[Aik Haw]

Pirate Jenn:-
Nod. I understand.

As for the polydeity concept, from a Buddhist perspective, the higher you go up the scale of existance, until you totally transcend existance upon Nirvana, you will be able to see reality with less and less leaning.

As a result, the actual discrepancy between Brahma Gods( Gods above the 18 tiered Deva Gods ) lessen the higher up you go. For example, humans do not argue over the importance of air towards physical living, because arguing such is futile. It is THUS. Neither do we argue whether people who are thirsty should drink water to relieve the thirst, because it is THUS. All beings will neither be in agreement or disagreement about Thusness, because it is such.

By the time you transcend skandhaic existance, Reality will be seen completely without leaning, which is exactly what Enlightenment really is ( with limitation while you remain in a Saha form, for form perception is flawed, but thinking is not ).

------------------------------
"It's easy to find things worth dying for. Can you find anything worth living for?"

A lot . How can one experience this wonderful product of billions of years of evolution while dead? Each bird that flies through the air is a reason to live. Every song is a reason to live. A touching story is a reason to live. An inspiration is a reason to live.

Life is a celebration of the deities, the Lady and the Lord, a daily procession of the possibilities, a gala which delights the Mother and the Father.

But death is not mourning, but a pause by which celebration is interspersed. For what celebration can go on continously without a walk by the park, or touching the hands of your lover under the night sky, watching as the stars dance in each others eyes?

Life and Death, polar katas, a oneness in two mask, the twin jester, the Yin and Yang!!

 

[saintjon]

Thanks for the compliment Jenn! You're pretty great yourself.

Sammie, what you said sounds like another way of seeking to be absolved from one of life's more important things. I think we have to try and learn the value of loss. For me it is like the Vinegar Tasters, Lao-Tze tastes the bitterness of life and smiles. This isn't because he's a sadistic bastard, it's because he appreciates the bad stuff for what it's worth.

When someone dies for instance, you regret, you feel loss, all around you feel pretty crummy. How beautiful is it though, to feel so much for your fellows that you would be moved like that? It is a somewhat painful affirmation of your compassion and something to learn from.

Besides, your parents didn't give you whatever you wanted as a means of raising you, did they? Yet they were, and possibly are still, the most nurturing figures in your life. It seems kind of limiting to assume that a creator god or the Tao would be any different. We are meant to learn I think. To grow in our wisdom.

Anyways, I hope that helps you to take comfort from the bad things in life. The fact of their occurence won't change, but the way you react to them certainly can.

 

[kegasaurus]

Actually, I have to disagree with you Saintjon. What I got form Sammies past was that this god that everyone prays to, was not worthy of her adulation, as he doesn't have the same respect for the beings he created as we do. I mean if you read that last line and to paraphrase, "What's worth living for - Everything" Well doesn't that encompass both the good with the bad... and the ugly?

 

[saintjon]

Could be that I misread her.

I got a sense of bitterness though, from the way she talked about the hospital. I'm sure she'll come in and clear it up either way.

 

[kegasaurus]

Sasintjon, I have two parents who are nurses. Both are practitioners of the general side as well as those touched by god. I hear that bitterness everyday, yet when I realise they can accept me as their son and never have me question their love for me, well I know nothing of bitterness.

 

[saintjon]

That's cool. Good to be able to take comfort in family, eh?