Just curious

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Originally posted by juzzza
Now I ask you, who wouldn't love her? :D
Ha! Many... but thanks, your a sweety Juzzz...

Originally posted by Sammie
Shan suggests that her ''power of not-believing'' theory applies only to the "supernatural dimension". I don't believe there IS a supernatural dimension - hence one source of disagreement!!

You're right Sammie, my theory was established at far to late an hour. The more I think about it, the more impossible it is to not take it back, so, I'm taking it back. :) Really, not believing doesn't make anything cease to exist you just fool yourself into thinking that it doesn't. Seriously.... I've seen many 'unpleasent' things in my life that deal with the superntural and no non-belief could have saved me then. So I guess, on the religious side thats where my faith comes back into play. Faith that I have the greater strength and gerater power. Faith that I'm surround by angels ready for battle, faith that God's head is turned my way.
 
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The supernatural, I think is often used as an excuse. I have seen a lot of evil things in my life time.

But the bottom line always seems to be that the "evil" is in the minds and hearts of us, human beings....

Saying something is the work of the devil or supernatural or "evil" is just passing the buck...
 
I don't know... I find it almost impossbile to not believe in a supernatural force with they way things roll in this world... just impossible. :)
 
Ya I'm all about supernatural forces. If we can heal better and do better at sports with faith imagine what might've been done in ancient times, when faith was a more popular pastime.
 
But not only was it popular to be faithful, but many people actually practised there faith whole-heartedly letting their own beings in entirety to be devoured by their beliefs. It still happens today, and all around, but still there is no where near the same degree of faith as there once was IMO.
 
Is there not a difference in affect (have no idea, just guessing) depending on whether you believe God will help you do something, or whether you believe YOU can do it?

(anyone would think i was areligious :D)
 
I don't think faith has waned. I think we just worship different idols today. Most people believe in some thing either science or religion. Not many nihlists around.
 
Ya but imagine how much more in-your-face spirituality would be for a middle ages peasant. The only break the monotony of hoeing the muck and burying your dead kids is the big flashy church with the educated priests who promise you a better life as long as you're good.

I for one, would latch onto that theory like a starving man onto a foot long from Quizno's.
 
Originally posted by Sammie
Is there not a difference in affect (have no idea, just guessing) depending on whether you believe God will help you do something, or whether you believe YOU can do it?

(anyone would think i was areligious :D)

I beleive that because God is there to help me, I can do it. I have faith that his glory and power is surging through my veins... perhaps his hand may not reach out and smite my enemies directly... but as long as I have faith in him he will lend his power and wisdom so I can so what needs to be done. God has never failed me, when I called on his name with a whole heart.
 
Originally posted by Shanoncia


I beleive that because God is there to help me, I can do it. I have faith that his glory and power is surging through my veins... perhaps his hand may not reach out and smite my enemies directly... but as long as I have faith in him he will lend his power and wisdom so I can so what needs to be done. God has never failed me, when I called on his name with a whole heart.

Fairy nuff :)

I believe that even if there is a God, i can do what i need to do without him.

(And yes, i have independance issues :D)
 
Well ya, I can sympathize with that Sammie. Although, my idea of God is a little different, so I don't really have to look at it that way.

Glad you appreciate my humour there, Chocky!
 
By the Buddhas and the Gods, before this degrades into a sludge fight....let me see whether a middle ground exist here.

First and foremost Sammie( Shan, I will address you later ), I have to reassert that I agree with you that reality, in it's purest form is near immutable. What I meant by perception and reality is this.

Reality, or what we call reality, has to be PERCEIVED by us, first by our sense organs, than by our own mental interpretation of reality, on a biological, psychological and intellectual level.

The first you cannot change barring nanotechnology, the second can be changed on many levels. As I told you before, the story of the bogeyman in the closet, to you as a child, such a concept is actually real . Therefore, DARKNESS in the closet to a child=bogeyman. While DARKNESS in it's essence may not have changed from the vantage point of reality, to you and I, darkness have changed. This is our perception of reality, and hence to us, reality. What we call REALITY, both you and I, happens to be nothing more than our PERCEPTION of it, and that includes our tummy ache. Though we are IMMERSED in reality, our idea of what is called reality ultimately comes from our sense and interpretation of it. This is where existance and perception are intertwined.

A good example is this Sammie. Tell me, how many colours are there in a rainbow?

If your answer is 7, what are you basing it on?

Your vision? But is this true?

Yes, because what you see shows you there are 7 colors.

But what do a bee see?

A bee sees one color.

Is it true there is only one color?

True again.

What would a UV perceiving being see?

At least 36 spectrums.

Is this true? True again.

YET, are there actually COLORS to the rainbow?

The answer, to ultimate reality, NONE!! What is color but our perception of how certain spectrum of the EM fields operate? To NATURE. a rainbow will be perceived as an EM field bending in water.

Yet, if Nature wants to be pedantic, there is no EM field, only pulses of photons, and no water, only little energy balls repelling each other. And even worse, Nature might perceive this little balls as nothing again, mere blips in the space time continuum.

So what we call reality, in this case, we limit it to the sense organ, is dependent upon our perception. When we say, " That is a rainbow," we are in fact branding a reality based upon our perception.


No, to Shan's belief in a deity or not, again it is her perception of reality which differs from yours. Both of you at the same time are immersed in the same reality. However, your perception of reality are now different. Take for example, I throw you and Shan into say, a very frigid, cold stream side somewhere in, I don't know, Iceland.

If I know Shan well, she will jump in ecstactic delight at the sight of a river and the cold and the frigidness and will probably go into rapturous delight.

Why, her perception of reality tells her that this is a wonderful place.

I doubt you and most people will do the same. I bet you we will go about hunting for a nice warm shed.

Likewise, is her belief in a God, which is dependent upon how she perceives reality.

AND by the way, even this statement I make is my perception of reality, which in no way is close to, I am 100% certain, how ultimate reality truly is.


Shan:-
Faith has not waned, we just have faith in our other perception of what we perceive will bring us satisfaction.
 
Originally posted by Sammie


Fairy nuff :)

I believe that even if there is a God, i can do what i need to do without him.

(And yes, i have independance issues :D)

That is probably the best expression I have seen of my own point of view. Interesting. I have always preferred to take responsibility for my own achievements as well as my screwups. 'It was Gods Will' strikes me as a convenient escape clause for people trying to weasel out of owning up for there own actions. Oh, it was Gods will that they died. No, it was the drunken son of a b***h who plowed his car into a crossing full of f**king schoolkids. It was his will they died. Not some nebulous 'god'.

Erg... That phrase always pisses me off. Sorry folks. Rant over.
 
Now to Shanoncia, now that I am back home:-

"I beleive that because God is there to help me, I can do it. I have faith that his glory and power is surging through my veins... perhaps his hand may not reach out and smite my enemies directly... but as long as I have faith in him he will lend his power and wisdom so I can so what needs to be done. God has never failed me, when I called on his name with a whole heart."

Step back for a moment Shanoncia for a brief minute and try to take a perspective that no deity, yes, no deity known to man, exist.

Now, with this perspective, read this sentence.

Now shift back to the perspective that some form of deity exist.

Can you see where others are coming from?
 
Might as well get peoples' opinions on Fatima. Sure most have heard a bit about it. Does anyone think it was all a sham, or that the Virgin Mary really talked to the children, and the sun miracle was real.
 
I tend to believe it. But then I went to Our Lady of Fatima elementary school. They got me at a young age and indoctrinated it.
 
Originally posted by Shanoncia
But not only was it popular to be faithful, but many people actually practised there faith whole-heartedly letting their own beings in entirety to be devoured by their beliefs. It still happens today, and all around, but still there is no where near the same degree of faith as there once was IMO.

Sorry Shan but these words make me shudder. "Letting their own beings in entirety to be devoured by their beliefs"

What follows is a personal opinion and is not getting at anyone.

The sentence screams to me "my faith right or wrong" which is as bad as "my country right or wrong"

Faith or religion has caused more death and destruction than any other single aspect of human life. Religion sets up rules i.e. do not kill. Then is quite happy to sanction the killing of all those "not" of their religion, because they are not the "true faith"

To blindly follow one faith or another to accept as gospel what you are taught without questioning is going against what god/creator/Supreme being, call him/her/it what you like, in my opinion, gave humanity, the power of reason to find out for ourselves.

The starting point, the base rock of any religion has good precepts for guiding you to live a decent life. It is the crap the rest of humanity has dumped on top that has ruined them.

Faith can be an uplifting thing, it can also warp and twist. It can blind you to other beauty. It can become such an obession that you can't see beyond it.

You don't need faith to feel the thrill of life, you just have to open your mind to the world around you.

The supernatural, is more or less the human mind's desire to seek to explain things it does not understand or what can't be explained. The secret it to accept that there is much in the world you can't understand or will never have time, even if you live to be two hundred, to learn.

I live, I breathe, I see, I touch, I hear, my mind reacts to what is around me and I speak of it. I am part of this world and it is part of me. I use it and it uses me. We are limbs on the same body. What affects it, affects me at some time or some point.

We are but ripples in the pond of creation.
 
The only bad religion is the one which claims to be the only right and true path. Sadly, there are a few of those around.
 
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