okay, now they've gone too far!

[Sparrow]

How's the view from up there on your intellectual pedestal.

Just outstanding.
You all look like ants from way up here.
Those of you reading StarTrek novels look like stupid ants.

 

[caenxavier]

I haven't read any yet of the _ and _ books, my roommate is raving over Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Maybe I'll read it after her, I had my doubts but I do love a good spoof.

 

[Glelas]

Can you imagine if Abraham Lincoln came back from the dead to see how the grand experiment of democracy turned out.

they turn our most beloved President into a vampire slayer...

most beloved President? Are you one of those Lincoln cultists?

I could knock you off that intellectual pedestal you put yourself on but I would be going way off topic...and I have been known to dabble in Star Trek and Star Wars novels - go figure.

 

[Erfael]

Just a reminder to keep this discussion friendly, everyone...we hate having to issue strikes for name-calling and insults. Keep it clean.

 

[Sparrow]

most beloved President? Are you one of those Lincoln cultists?

I could knock you off that intellectual pedestal you put yourself on but I would be going way off topic...and I have been known to dabble in Star Trek and Star Wars novels - go figure.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. -Abraham Lincoln

 

[Rulkez]

Just outstanding.
You all look like ants from way up here.
Those of you reading StarTrek novels look like stupid ants.

I have never purchased or read a tie in fiction novel, nor any of this series of spoof novels . I have never read comics or graphic novels , I do however like gaming and space opera.

So I guess that makes me part of the vast majority you have overtly insulted over the last week. I am amazed a man of your clear intellectual and moral superiority can't separate someone's reading habits and their :

Intelligence
Dating habits
Living arrangements
Life expectancy

I have a feeling you shifted from actual discussion to trolling in this and the Sci-Fi thread a good while ago , but who knows , maybe you really do think what a person reads for entertainment is a reflection of their character .

 

[Sparrow]

I have never purchased or read a tie in fiction novel, nor any of this series of spoof novels . I have never read comics or graphic novels , I do however like gaming and space opera.

So I guess that makes me part of the vast majority you have overtly insulted over the last week. I am amazed a man of your clear intellectual and moral superiority can't separate someone's reading habits and their :

Intelligence
Dating habits
Living arrangements
Life expectancy

I have a feeling you shifted from actual discussion to trolling in this and the Sci-Fi thread a good while ago , but who knows , maybe you really do think what a person reads for entertainment is a reflection of their character .

Well, yes and no. No to the trolling accusation and yes to the point you make about character.
I think you can divine certain things by what a person reads and how they spend their time. Do I believe reading StarWars novels and enjoying role playing games are bad or even just a waste of time, no, of course not. But if the bulk of your free time is spent escaping reality, reality with all it's frustrations and pain, then I suspect that person is of little consequence and not living up to the spirit of Science Fiction.

Space Opera is like cheese puffs, great in moderation. But if you find that you're eating cheese puffs morning noon and night, then perhaps you need an intervention, and that is where I come in.

 

[Loerwyn]

I have never purchased or read a tie in fiction novel, nor any of this series of spoof novels . I have never read comics or graphic novels , I do however like gaming and space opera.

So I guess that makes me part of the vast majority you have overtly insulted over the last week. I am amazed a man of your clear intellectual and moral superiority can't separate someone's reading habits and their :

Intelligence
Dating habits
Living arrangements
Life expectancy

I have a feeling you shifted from actual discussion to trolling in this and the Sci-Fi thread a good while ago , but who knows , maybe you really do think what a person reads for entertainment is a reflection of their character .

You forgot to mention gaming habits, but I have to agree with this. The insults/degrading comments are too frequent to be "discussion" or "opinion".
We'd get a lot further in these topics if people weren't being insulted or made to feel worse just for liking something. Sparrow - You don't like franchised novels, we get it. It doesn't make someone "stupid" to read one, let alone enjoy it.
Me - Stop being so easily insulted

Wonder if they'll do "Aye, Robot"...

 

[E_Moon]

You know, Sparrow, if you'd offer any evidence that your education, your intelligence, and your experience justify your capacity to make sound judgments about literature and the character of those who read, you might be easier to take.

What is your educational background? What is your occupational background and other related experience? How much fiction have you yourself read (inside and outside the field? And specifically in what you consider space opera?) Are you familiar with Aristotle's Poetics and Sayers' Mind of the Maker? With C.S. Lewis's and Tolkein's essays on popular fiction and 'escapist' fiction? Have you read LeGuin's The Language of the Night? Did any of these inform your views on the nature and purpose of fiction? How much fiction have you yourself written? How much nonfiction? How would you compare the work of Austen to the work of Surtees? Trollope (the Victorian one) to Thackery? To Kingsley? To Dickens? How would you compare 20th c. British authors to 19th c. British authors (and the same for American?)

What I'm trying to get at, for my own future response (from ignoring you completely to attempting a conversation) is what your background is and why you apparently think you are qualified to have your unsupported opinions taken seriously.

Disclosure is part of both courteous and intellectual discourse. If you're hiding a doctorate in Greek, by all means disclose it and talk about how that's affected your view of science fiction. If you're enamored of Derrida's theories about literature, say so. If your opinions are derived from a given religious, cultural, or political POV, disclose (it's tempting to speculate, but I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest about it.) Are you hiding a Booker Prize? A Nobel Prize in some science? Tell us. As of now, you read like a self-appointed gadfly hiding behind a pseudonym.

 

[KatG]

Alrighty then. Ms. Moon makes good points, but Sparrow, you don't have to divulge your educational background. But you do have to stop making personal insults of members in many of your posts and trying to troll for angry responses. You started this thread joking around and I think it was a bit misinterpreted, but it was misinterpreted largely because you make remarks about the intelligence of those who read things you don't like in many threads. Which is against the rules of the forum, rules you agreed to follow when you signed up. You've had more than one warning about it and if you keep it up, you will be issued a Strike. Stick to making comments about books, not the brain power of the authors who write them or the readers who read them.

I'm doing this in the thread, rather than as a PM, because it's gotten a little heated in here, and one moderator's warning has already been ignored. So the tone of the thread changes from all members or the thread will be closed.

 

[SmartAlick]

For what its worth, I've had multiple experiences in which these books specifically served to get people interested in fantasy, when they would not have otherwise ever considering picking up such a novel. If they can function as such a bridge then they're fine by me despite the fact that i have no personal interest in reading them. Putting aside the parody aspect of it, much in the same way Forgotten Realms books (for instance) bring youths to fantasy, so do these bring mainstream audiences the genre wherein they realize it may not be a write off after all. More readers=more writers=more output=more quality=more enjoyment for us.

 

[Loerwyn]

I'm doing this in the thread, rather than as a PM, because it's gotten a little heated in here, and one moderator's warning has already been ignored. So the tone of the thread changes from all members or the thread will be closed.

Apologies again, KatG. I suspect I don't help the issue at times myself.

 

[Jon Sprunk]

You know, Sparrow, if you'd offer any evidence that your education, your intelligence, and your experience justify your capacity to make sound judgments about literature and the character of those who read, you might be easier to take.

What is your educational background? What is your occupational background and other related experience? How much fiction have you yourself read (inside and outside the field? And specifically in what you consider space opera?) Are you familiar with Aristotle's Poetics and Sayers' Mind of the Maker? With C.S. Lewis's and Tolkein's essays on popular fiction and 'escapist' fiction? Have you read LeGuin's The Language of the Night? Did any of these inform your views on the nature and purpose of fiction? How much fiction have you yourself written? How much nonfiction? How would you compare the work of Austen to the work of Surtees? Trollope (the Victorian one) to Thackery? To Kingsley? To Dickens? How would you compare 20th c. British authors to 19th c. British authors (and the same for American?)

What I'm trying to get at, for my own future response (from ignoring you completely to attempting a conversation) is what your background is and why you apparently think you are qualified to have your unsupported opinions taken seriously.

Disclosure is part of both courteous and intellectual discourse. If you're hiding a doctorate in Greek, by all means disclose it and talk about how that's affected your view of science fiction. If you're enamored of Derrida's theories about literature, say so. If your opinions are derived from a given religious, cultural, or political POV, disclose (it's tempting to speculate, but I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest about it.) Are you hiding a Booker Prize? A Nobel Prize in some science? Tell us. As of now, you read like a self-appointed gadfly hiding behind a pseudonym.

Check and mate.

 

[KatG]

Jon, what did I just say? Stick to the topic, please.

 

[Jon Sprunk]

Sorry, Kat. I was just admiring a great mind at work.

 

[Sparrow]

You know, Sparrow, if you'd offer any evidence that your education, your intelligence, and your experience justify your capacity to make sound judgments about literature and the character of those who read, you might be easier to take.

You can take it anyway you like.
But make certain of one thing, I justify myself to no one.
As "evidence" that my views are rooted in reality, I offer Exhibit A; a dying genre catering to lower class tastes, dwindling book and magazine sales, and a steady migration away from the written form to video gaming.

What is your educational background? What is your occupational background and other related experience? How much fiction have you yourself read (inside and outside the field? And specifically in what you consider space opera?) Are you familiar with Aristotle's Poetics and Sayers' Mind of the Maker? With C.S. Lewis's and Tolkein's essays on popular fiction and 'escapist' fiction? Have you read LeGuin's The Language of the Night? Did any of these inform your views on the nature and purpose of fiction? How much fiction have you yourself written? How much nonfiction? How would you compare the work of Austen to the work of Surtees? Trollope (the Victorian one) to Thackery? To Kingsley? To Dickens? How would you compare 20th c. British authors to 19th c. British authors (and the same for American?)

uhh, an odd place for an interview... but why not.
High School grad with honors and a small scholarship. Honors don't pay bills and the scholarship was used to purchase a used Mustang (not a horse, a car made by the Ford Motor Company). I was glad to be done with school when I was sixteen, and I have never had the desire to return. So I've made my way with wit and guile, and a lot of hard work. I've been a muralist, furniture maker, stage prop designer and builder, and several other jobs not worth a mention including freelancing in the video game industry... which is one field with standards lower than modern Science Fiction. I am proudly Blue Collar and take up my position in the middle-class, and at home at a NASCAR event or a stage performance of Cats... though I admittedly prefer to watch racing cars go in circles. I live downtown in a 107 year old Southern Queen Anne Revival we're restoring to past glory, and I drive to work in a modified 480hp Corvette which I rebuilt and that will rip the paint right off most Ferraris. Orange is my favorite color, rum and coke my drink of choice, and my farts smell like rose petals... is that enough background info for ya?

Of CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien; I can only say I loved reading The Chronicles of Narnia and The Lord of the Rings, of the men who wrote the stories, I can't stomach either. What their joint philosophy is concerning writing and escapist fiction I can hardly imagine. If it turns out to be a mishmash of conservative christian gobbledygook or about canonizing mythology and whatnot, then color me not impressed. I'll single out CS Lewis because he is a special case... have you read the short story The Problem of Susan by Neil Gaiman? It's a wonderful reprise for young Susan Pevensie who was banished from Narnia for having the audacity to grow up. Read the story, Aslan does what lions often do, take advantage of an easy meal... and we won't get into what the White Witch does with the Pevensie boys. Gaiman nails it perfectly.

Now on to Jane Austen, perhaps the most overrated author in the English pantheon. For this I will gladly loan Ms. Charlotte Bronte my soap box as she considers the work of Lady Jane Austen...
"Anything like warmth or enthusiasm, anything energetic, poignant, heartfelt, is utterly out of place in commending these works: all such demonstrations the authoress would have met with a well-bred sneer, would have calmly scorned as outré or extravagant. She does her business of delineating the surface of the lives of genteel English people curiously well. There is a Chinese fidelity, a miniature delicacy, in the painting. She ruffles her reader by nothing vehement, disturbs him with nothing profound. The passions are perfectly unknown to her: she rejects even a speaking acquaintance with that stormy sisterhood ... What sees keenly, speaks aptly, moves flexibly, it suits her to study: but what throbs fast and full, though hidden, what the blood rushes through, what is the unseen seat of life and the sentient target of death--this Miss Austen ignores....Jane Austen was a complete and most sensible lady, but a very incomplete and rather insensible (not senseless woman), if this is heresy--I cannot help it."

You mention William Makepeace Thackeray (at least I assume you meant WMT as you've butchered his last name), and there at least we have a common fancy. His Barry Lyndon novel is one of my favorites (great movie too, btw), and Vanity Fair is a book everyone should get around to reading. On to Dickens, which I won't but comment that it has been too long since the reading, and no doubt memories of the written words and movie adaptations are jumbled together making it an incoherent mess... I'll say that for my money I have always enjoyed Nathaniel Hawthorne and thought his touch was deeper and his stories less dependent on caricature than works by Dickens. On to others you didn't mention,,, I find Melville to be tiresome and his masterpiece, Moby Dick, to be a giant step backwards for the American Novel... and true life accounts of the whaleship Essex on which Moby Dick was founded, to be far and away more interesting. Mark Twain was a genius, Washington Irving a marvel, and I never thought much of Poe.

As for comparing 20th c writers to their 19th c counterparts... what use is it?.. and if it is of some worth then you'll need to narrow the conversation down. Am I supposed to compare, contrast, and plot out developments and progressions from two hundred years of diverse literature? Sorry, you'll have to do better than that, Ms.Moon. Would you like to talk about the Romantic Movement, the Gothic Tale, or how the proliferation of news periodicals during the Victorian Era changed fiction?

What I'm trying to get at, for my own future response (from ignoring you completely to attempting a conversation) is what your background is and why you apparently think you are qualified to have your unsupported opinions taken seriously.

As stated above I am self-taught, thoroughly unencumbered by doctorates and other academic restraints. My opinions are supported by twenty years of slow decline in Science Fiction book sales, of a slide into near irrelevance, and a dreadful belief that the new bedrock of SF is the film and video game industry.

Disclosure is part of both courteous and intellectual discourse. If you're hiding a doctorate in Greek, by all means disclose it and talk about how that's affected your view of science fiction. If you're enamored of Derrida's theories about literature, say so. If your opinions are derived from a given religious, cultural, or political POV, disclose (it's tempting to speculate, but I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest about it.) Are you hiding a Booker Prize? A Nobel Prize in some science? Tell us. As of now, you read like a self-appointed gadfly hiding behind a pseudonym.

Well, as we're on the Fantasy side of the fence; my name is Barnabas Darkhawk-- shapeshifter, slayer of vampires, shadow in the dust, savior with the countenance of a penthouse whore I ply my trade where the winds of limbo roar.

And no, I am not a writer.
I reckon no more than a few dozen writers actually make a proper living from sf book sales, and as an occupation I imagine it's time is drawing to an end. I'm currently reading Destroyer of Worlds by Larry Niven and Edward Lerner. That my dear, answers another of your questions, Niven & Lerner do Space Opera justice.

 

[KatG]

Since you are responding to Ms. Moon's post, I'll let this one go, Sparrow. But if you keep up with the personal insults, it is going to be a Strike. Chalk it up to us being low class and enamored of a dying art form.

This thread started because you were actually recommending Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer. (Or at least it seemed that way.) I suggest you (and everyone else) get back to that topic. Last warning.

 

[Sparrow]

Since you are responding to Ms. Moon's post, I'll let this one go, Sparrow. But if you keep up with the personal insults, it is going to be a Strike. Chalk it up to us being low class and enamored of a dying art form.

This thread started because you were actually recommending Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer. (Or at least it seemed that way.) I suggest you (and everyone else) get back to that topic. Last warning.

I was responding to personal insults posted by Ms.Moon.

Her intent was not at "conversation", as she claimed, but to embarrass.
Is there one set of rules for Ms.Moon, and another for non-writers?


And I was neither recommending the book or criticizing it.
Strike away.