our genre is stagnating

aiasminor said:
I thought the reason why we read fiction is to be entertained. Otherwise you would be reading the encyclopedia to past the time. A book doesn’t have to be ground breaking, it just has to be entertaining.
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You can read fiction for whatever reason you want. i do read fiction to be entertained. But if I have choice between being entertained and interested and learning something versus being Merely entertained I will take the former.

So I would like that evaluated as part of any review of anything claiming to be SCIENCE Fiction.

And actually I do recall lying on my bed with a science fiction book and having three encyclopedia open at the same time. The whole point was the SF book told me what to look up in the encyclopedia. Nobody told me what a light-year was or that stars run on fusion and could explode eventually.

I don't learn much from SF these days but when there is no substance there I still feel that it is missing something. So I think informative SF is good for kids.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...012/05/09/gIQAh8TyDU_story.html?tid=sm_btn_gp

Omnilingual by H. Beam Piper
http://librivox.org/omnilingual-by-h-beam-piper/
http://www.feedbooks.com/book/308/omnilingual

psik
 
psikeyhackr said:
You can read fiction for whatever reason you want. i do read fiction to be entertained. But if I have choice between being entertained and interested and learning something versus being Merely entertained I will take the former.

So I would like that evaluated as part of any review of anything claiming to be SCIENCE Fiction.

And actually I do recall lying on my bed with a science fiction book and having three encyclopedia open at the same time. The whole point was the SF book told me what to look up in the encyclopedia. Nobody told me what a light-year was or that stars run on fusion and could explode eventually.

I don't learn much from SF these days but when there is no substance there I still feel that it is missing something. So I think informative SF is good for kids.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...012/05/09/gIQAh8TyDU_story.html?tid=sm_btn_gp

Omnilingual by H. Beam Piper
http://librivox.org/omnilingual-by-h-beam-piper/
http://www.feedbooks.com/book/308/omnilingual

psik
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Amen. I don't mind if someone makes up some scientific aspect of a story. It can be an ionic potospheric plasma rifle. I just know when I'm getting something from someone like Vinge who knows what he's talking about rather than a writer pertending to be a scientist.
 
psikeyhackr said:
And actually I do recall lying on my bed with a science fiction book and having three encyclopedia open at the same time.
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So the sci fi book was for entertainment and the encyclopedia was for education. What reference material do you prefer to use now? I had someone come to my door the other day trying to sell me a 50 volume set of encyclopedias. I didn’t know they still did that. In the end all you really need is the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Good link. Thanks again to No Child Left Behind. There have been a lot of these news stories lately. Depressing.
 
aiasminor said:
So the sci fi book was for entertainment and the encyclopedia was for education. What reference material do you prefer to use now? I had someone come to my door the other day trying to sell me a 50 volume set of encyclopedias. I didn’t know they still did that. In the end all you really need is the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Good link. Thanks again to No Child Left Behind. There have been a lot of these news stories lately. Depressing.
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What good is an encyclopedia if you don't know what to look up in it?

Story #2 says Sirius is 8.8 light-years away. I read my first SF book at age 9. I would not have known about Sirius or light-years. It would have been obvious from the story that it was unit of distance. The encyclopedia would fill in details but the concepts first came from the SF book. So if an SF book is entertaining but contains nothing worthy of research then it has short term value but not long term value. The first book which won a Hugo doesn't have much to research.

Try checking a lot of computer science books to see which ones mention the term "von Neumann machine".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU

Neuromancer is a much better known supposed science fiction book than Cold as Ice and is known to be about computers but what would there be to research in an encyclopedia from Neuromancer? What do you really get from looking up cyberspace. HHGTTG is worse then Neuromancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberspace

The Internet is millions of von Neumann machines linked together. So what would a list of 100 SF stories that accomplish both functions do for lots of kids?

psik
 
What I don't understand is why the OP was talking about Star Wars and the lack of decent new space opera movies in the book forum anyway.

Leaving aside the hard/soft SF, literature/entertainment/education, SF-as-venue-or-basis-for-the-story angle, there have been several successful successors to the Star Wars brand of space opera, most recently the Battlestar Galactica TV series and the Mass Effect series of games, both of which (flawed as they are) are comprehensively superior to anything done in the Star Wars universe for a decade, if not a lot more.
 
I disagree. Mass Effect suffers - as Star Wars had - from massive inconsistencies in style. The first game was very much a military science fiction piece, the second moved into a sort of space opera and the third is a bit of a blend. On top of that, the technology and culture has changed considerably too. There's more similarities between the second and third games than between the first and second, but there's still massive differences in terms of architecture, structure, armour, weaponry and so forth.

I wouldn't say any of them are particularly better than Star Wars, nor are they worse. Aside from the fact Star Wars is 'technically' space fantasy, they seek to achieve different things. BSG is about war, Star Wars shifts depending on the time period and characters involved, and Mass Effect is about an impending apocalypse (of sorts).
 
Ya'll, this thread reeks of a panel at a convention with a bunch of smart people on it. =) Well said on all sides, ladies and gentlemen.
 
A lot of what's being said is interesting to read, but some of the comments read as if some posters here think only hard SF is real SF. That smacks as more than a bit narrow-minded. There are quite a few giants of the SF genre who only wrote soft SF or who predominantly wrote soft SF. As a fan of both, I can't agree with that limited definition.
 
Overgeeked said:
A lot of what's being said is interesting to read, but some of the comments read as if some posters here think only hard SF is real SF. That smacks as more than a bit narrow-minded. There are quite a few giants of the SF genre who only wrote soft SF or who predominantly wrote soft SF. As a fan of both, I can't agree with that limited definition.
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Yep.




.
 
Overgeeked said:
A lot of what's being said is interesting to read, but some of the comments read as if some posters here think only hard SF is real SF. That smacks as more than a bit narrow-minded. There are quite a few giants of the SF genre who only wrote soft SF or who predominantly wrote soft SF. As a fan of both, I can't agree with that limited definition.
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And some people interpret things the way they want to hear them. Rite of Passage is not hard SF but I have mentioned it many times on this site.

http://www.sffworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=556401&postcount=30

But I do find it ironic that so many people who claim to like science fiction really are not that interested in the science but then even the creators of Star Wars did not regard it as science fiction.

psik
 
I find the attempt to categorize the genre amusing and unsuccessful. :D

By SF's very nature it is hard to draw compartments around any classification for any work in the genre. Sure, there are generalities:

Military Sci-Fi
Urban Fantasy
Cyberpunk
Dystopian
Hard Sci-Fi
Space Opera

And I am sure I am missing a few categories.

The types of Sci-Fi each have lines and ties in with some Fantasy and some of the other categories.

I have looked at the arguments in this thread and I have noticed that a lot of folks have their own opinions about what category is what.

The conversation, while never resolvable, has made me think about the way I critically read and my own opinions of what makes up say..... a space oprea. I think space opera and I think the Dune series, Most of Peter Hamilton's work, and Ringworld. But then... what are 2001: A Space Odyssey, 2010: Odyssey Two, 2061: Odyssey Three, and 3001: The Final Odyssey? K. Those are Hard Sci-Fi to me.

I enjoy a vast array of Sci-Fi. And when I finish with one, I will contemplate what I want next. For instance, I am in the mood for the supposed "Mystery Sci-Fi" of the Greg Mandel Trilogy from Hamilton. Its a 'type' of story that I enjoyed with the Jim Butcher's Ghost STory (Dresden Files: Book 7). I started that series in the middle and then decided to go back to Book 1 and give it another shot. I didn't get the way the characters interacted at all. But the way that Mr. Butcher told the story makes him oh, so worthy of a proper shot at my pocketbook. :D

Just in this post I have mentioned quite a few authors who are just phenomenal and yet have their own little niche.

I am skipping around from one series and back. I like to insert something inbetween Book 1 and Book 2 of whatever I am reading. And it will be something different. Ie. I am doing the Greg Mandel series inbetween my reading of all of the Commonwealth Series from Peter Hamilton.

Do ya'll have dedications to a specific type of Sci-Fi or do you change it up as you finish one book and move on to another?
 
Do ya'll have dedications to a specific type of Sci-Fi or do you change it up as you finish one book and move on to another?
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Very much 'mix and match' for me, Dennis. The richness of our genres means that you can read two Fantasy (or Sf or Horror) books side by side and yet they be very different.

S'what keeps me reading!

Mark
 
kennychaffin said:
And with that I give you the link to Ward Shelly's SF History Map:


http://www.wardshelley.com/paintings/pages/fullpics/HistSciFi2.jpg

http://www.wardshelley.com/
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Mr. Chaffin..... wow, what a great link. I have never seen that - ever.....

Now, on a more sad note.... my wife is going to kill you when she finds out. She is going to go all Annie Wilkes on me AND you. Why? Because I HAVE to get a copy of that.... I am so ordering a print of that when pay day comes in. I will ask for forgiveness afterwards and blame you when she tries to kill me.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

We are so dead... She'll flip when it arrives and I get it framed.... How much to frame that beast.....
 
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kyle said:
science fiction is stagnating. i intend to change that. we dont need a hundred bland stories and weak movies with stunning graphics that attempt to compensate for repetitive, one-dimensional storylines. this generation needs an entire new universe to immerse itself in, a star wars for the 2010's, for lack of a better analogy. i am writing just that. i estimate that my first book of the series will be done before end of the year. if something new that not only science fiction but literature enthusiasts will become enamored with peaks your intrest, keep an eye out for my new universe.
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I think that what Kyle is possibly trying to say is: When Star Wars first came out it was unlike anything done previously in the movies. It captured not only sci-fi genre enthusiasts but people of all genres. The movie had likable characters, an epic scale and a compelling story of good versus evil. It appealed to adults and children alike. Most of the storytelling today doesn't really give you epic heroes and villains. This story was black and white good versus evil and reflects the culture and the time. In the world today there is so much ambiguity between good and evil and fewer people are well educated. Its no wonder the movies and stories generated do not have the ability to grab a generation. What can you say about a country that would rather coerce people onto the public dole than fund a space program? All of this contributes to mediocrity. I understand how Kyle feels. We need a movie/story that can grab multiple generations and inspire greatness in storytelling. A couple of years ago I wearied with what was offered in sci-fi and decided to write my own story. I wish Kyle good luck. I hope he knocks it out of the park.
 
miahskeeper said:
In the world today there is so much ambiguity between good and evil and fewer people are well educated. Its no wonder the movies and stories generated do not have the ability to grab a generation. What can you say about a country that would rather coerce people onto the public dole than fund a space program? All of this contributes to mediocrity. I understand how Kyle feels. We need a movie/story that can grab multiple generations and inspire greatness in storytelling. A couple of years ago I wearied with what was offered in sci-fi and decided to write my own story. I wish Kyle good luck. I hope he knocks it out of the park.
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So well said. Every sentence. =)

I recently read an article about 'near future' science fiction that was written in 2008. I'm reading the Greg Mandel series at the moment and it is definitely set in the near future. So was 1984.

What would make for a good, inspirational story? The Potter series, though carefully apolitical, was a huge inspirational success until Rowling ruined it with the unnecessary, "Dumbledore is gay" politicisation.

It will be very hard for anyone to recreate the hysteria that came with Star Wars and Star Trek. The magic that comes with huge successes is not something that can be bottled. To show that, all you have to do is try to answer the question of why a given story became so popular. Take a pick:

Star Wars
Star Trek
Harry Potter
Gulliver's Travels
The Time Machine
Shakespeare
Swiss Family Robinson
Tom Sawyer
Huckleberry Finn
The Lord of the Rings

I can't even begin to take a stab at what made these great. And my own opinion of some of these titles is that they sucked. And I have read/seen all but two of them. But their acceptance and inspiration as great in their own time can't be denied.
 
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miahskeeper said:
...
What can you say about a country that would rather coerce people onto the public dole than fund a space program? All of this contributes to mediocrity. I understand how Kyle feels.
...
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Ya'll, sorry about posting again here, almost beating this dead horse, but what Miah's Keeper said above has been festering in the back of my frontal lobe and it has finally burned its way to the surface and is now demanding a response and I have 2 pennies in my pocket that are ready to be given away. So here's my 2 cents.

I have a unique perspective on 'youth' of today. See, I am 38 and married to a woman who is 24. We were married in 2005. So for the last 7 years I have had a unique perspective and a unique window into the mindset of the generation that came after me.

I have asked her about exactly what Miah's Keeper wrote above. About her opinion on the united state's space shuttle being scrapped. It absolutely broke my heart to see the shuttle go away. Lately every single thing that I used to love about the country has gone away. As a kid we were taught that we were better than every other country because we never tortured. We were taught to scoff at the way The Inquisition would never actually do the torturing of witches. We were taught to thumb our noses at how they would release confessed witches to the State for execution. How we were special because our modern minds could see through the B.S. We were taught that we were special because our state did not spy on its own citizens. We were taught how special we were because our state never imprisoned people secretly. Pretty much everything you are reading about the united state since 2001 is what we were proud we did not do.

Mrs. C. though was not perturbed at all by any of these things. She has no expectation of privacy from the government. Consequently she never had to delete and recreate her Facebook account because of things she and others had written on it. She always writes online as if the very people she does not want looking over her shoulder are looking over her shoulder.

She has no remorse or shame that we now ride into space with other countries. Further ---- she believes that space exploration is a waste of money.

Personally I find that an absolutely crying shame. Her idea is that it won't affect her so there is no point in doing it and certainly no point in the government "blowing tax money on it".

I realise that it would be unfair to generalise about those born in the late 1980s and beyond. It would not be a generalisation to say that 80% of the 1988 and later born people I have met share the same lack of interest in preservation of our species. You know, when our Sun goes to a red giant and swallows up the Earth we kind of need to be gone by then. If humanity dies during that event, it would be the universe's biggest loss ever. After that the only record of our existence will be a few probes wandering around the Milky Way.

Science Fiction is the seed from which a lot of new technologies came. Look at that cell phone, then go back and watch an early episode of Star Trek. Look at the inner workings of any anti-spam engine and you'll find a sophisticated electronic brain of neural networks. Same thing with voice recognition. All ideas that had their germination in Science Fiction.

So, a good question that lacks an easy answer is WHY are people's sense of wonder dying? I remember sitting around wondering about what was before the Big Bang. I remember thinking about how we could ever one day hope to travel to the parallel universes that are out there. I remember the amazement when I found out that the Universe was NOT infinite but that it was expanding so fast we could never reach the edge. That was a huge surprise. I had grown up thinking that our Universe went on forever in all directions. I was shocked when it turned out that was not the case and that there was a finite amount of mass in our universe.

Ah.... Sci-Fi. =):confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
Dennis, thank you for that. I am confounded by the same questions and continue to try and understand. I don't know what happened or why. One thought is that we are in the U.S.A. finally reaching a new level/stage of our growth as a country. It's certainly not isolated completely to the U.S. and is probably very much related to media, communication, global corporations, population growth and such....that's the best I can offer at the moment.

I also think there is a backlash against science that began with the atomic bomb was fueled by the cold war and is currently fanned by religious fanatics.
 
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Gents: let me just throw in a gentle reminder on two points.

1) Politics (and religion) are such incendiary topics that we tend not to do those at SFFWorld, unless related to the genre. Your example here is borderline, so I've left it, but I thought I'd better point it out before someone steps over.

2) Not everyone at SFFWorld is US-based, which means that a) it can take us a while to get what you're saying in the US sometimes, and b) annoys those who are not-US based (I get the emails!).

Global site, and all that - and proud of it! - but it means we tend not to go through that more geographical specific mindset.

For the record: you haven't yet, but I have a feeling that if we didn't say something here, others would (often to me.....).

Mark
 
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