Prose vs Plot

I love Gormenghast but you have to remember Gormenghast also has a great plot. It's not a plot-heavy book. It's known for its prose. But the plot is there and it's strong.

Of course it has a great plot, and like I said, I wouldn't count a book as one of my favourites if it didn't :) I was assuming that "plot" in this discussion means the actual events in the story, and in Gormenghast's case there is very little actually happening over a very long period of time. If you stripped away the prose, the unique characters and setting and the themes of Gormenghast, you really wouldn't have much left. "Titus Alone" is especially uneven in terms of plot (which is not a criticism of the book, I know it wasn't finished. But I doubt many would read it for the plot).

You know I think we get this idea in our heads that the writers who focus on prose are somehow more artistic, whereas the writers who focus on plot are merely entertainers. But I don't think it's a talent vs. craft thing. Both plot and prose are aspects of craft. The themes, moods, big ideas and passions on display in a book are aspects of the author's talent.

Obviously the discussion gets kind of silly at a certain point since it's a given that books need both plot, prose, themes etc. But I think it's possible to look at the individual parts that compile a text and talk about which generally make the biggest impression on you. It's really just down to personal preferences in a discussion like this, and my experience is just that prose generally makes a bigger impression on me than plot. A few years after reading a book, I remember descriptions better than the exact sequence of events, for example.
I agree that we tend to view prose as more artistic. But compare it to other media - if you have a film with great cinematography and one with great action, wouldn't most consider the one with rich cinematography the more artistic one? Descriptions and language in books are what forms the images in your head while you read, afterall, and the strength of those images will often make people feel that they read an artistic book, because it it can feel pleasing to the senses, in a similar way to viewing a beautifully shot film.
 
What would you rather have, a book that doesn't really have a exciting fast paced plot, but great prose, or a book with an addiciting plot that you can't seem to put down, but the writing it just very straight forward. I would kinda compare this to Robin Hobb vs GRRM. In Robin Hobb books, it takes FOREVER for anything to happen, but the prose is so damn good. And in GRRM there is this addicing "whats gonna happen next!" feeling, but the prose can be kinda boring and straight forward. I for one enjoy prose more...anyone that can reccomend an author that has a mix of the two, the first that comes to mind for me is Bakker, his prose is like poetry:) with also a fast paced plot.

Tad Williams's Shadowmarch. Four book series outstanding prose and relatively fast paced. I prefer his first work Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn but that is much slower.
 
Plot all the way. Is it just me, or is it better if things actually happen in a book?
 
Tad Williams's Shadowmarch. Four book series outstanding prose and relatively fast paced. I prefer his first work Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn but that is much slower.

I could not read that. I read The Dragonbone Chair and I said to myself "wow, nice atmosphere, very vivid, very good. Slow, but engrossing". Then the second book was exactly the same, and I never got past the first 100 pages of the third...
 
Definitely prose, but then again plot is also prose... I mean, it's not the actual events, not really, cause there are no actual events in a work of fiction. By which I mean, you don't get excited by a gunfight or sex in a book the way you'd get excited in real life. You get excited in real life, cause you're there, and you don't have that reading a book.

So prose is the only way to achieve immediacy. It could do it in a sentence, it could do it across a few chapters; it's a matter of pacing - but pacing is a matter of prose. How much space you devote to this or that, what you put after what, these are stylistic choices. The succession of events, what's shown and what's omitted, is as much a field of verbal artistry as are the sentence and the paragraph.

Having said that, I find that I increasingly enjoy and appreciate the literary brush-strokes that don't use too much color on the level of the sentence (although I like me some alliteration and metaphor as much as the next Eng Lit major). For example this:

"He didn't know who he was when she met him—well, not many people did. He was in the high orchard doing something under a pear tree. The land smelled of late summer and wind—bronze, it smelled bronze.
He looked up at a compact girl in her mid-twenties, at a fearless face and eyes the same color as her hair, which was extraordinary because her hair was red-gold. She looked down at a leather-skinned man in his forties, at a gold-leaf electroscope in his hand, and felt she was an intruder."

Apart from the synaesthetic (the mixing of senses, in plain English) detail of the bronze-smelling land, the language is rather plain. But the end-of-summer/beginning-of-fall color palette of the passage is extraordinary - starting with the pear tree (yellow-brown); then the word "bronze" (light-brownish); then the red-gold eyes and hair, the leather-skinned man (I guess a sort of tan color), the gold-leaf electroscope (bright golden yellow).
What's more extraordinary is the way this harmonious picture contrasts with the last part of the last sentence - "...and felt she was an intruder". According to the way I imagine the whole thing, she seems the exact opposite: an integral part of the color-scheme of the picture. She may feel she is an intruder but I felt she was exactly where she should be.

What I'm saying is, if you don't see prose skill just as "fancy sentences" (as I said, in the above example there are none), then you may be open to the idea that larger and more abstract elements could also be indicative of a writer's ability to write prose (and not just "to think up interesting-sounding stories"). And in that sense, I wouldn't be making the distinction "prose vs. plot". A plot development that I don't see artistic merit in (and whatever artistic merit there is in any work of literature, it has everything to do with the words on the page), I wouldn't call an example of good plotting. And so most fast-paced, excitingly *sounding* stories (in synopsis) turn out to me to be examples of bad plotting, because it usually ruins everything else about the book and therefore the speed and "excitement" turn out to be meaningless and unengaging.

Basically, I think that excitement about the author's way with sentences and excitement about the author's ability to "plot" is absolutely the same kind of excitement, different in scope, but not in kind.
 
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Definitely prose, but then again plot is also prose... I mean, it's not the actual events, not really, cause there are no actual events in a work of fiction. By which I mean, you don't get excited by a gunfight or sex in a book the way you'd get excited in real life. You get excited in real life, cause you're there, and you don't have that reading a book.

So prose is the only way to achieve immediacy. It could do it in a sentence, it could do it across a few chapters; it's a matter of pacing - but pacing is a matter of prose. How much space you devote to this or that, what you put after what, these are stylistic choices. The succession of events, what's shown and what's omitted, is as much a field of verbal artistry as are the sentence and the paragraph.

Having said that, I find that I increasingly enjoy and appreciate the literary brush-strokes that don't use too much color on the level of the sentence (although I like me some alliteration and metaphor as much as the next Eng Lit major). For example this:

"He didn't know who he was when she met him—well, not many people did. He was in the high orchard doing something under a pear tree. The land smelled of late summer and wind—bronze, it smelled bronze.
He looked up at a compact girl in her mid-twenties, at a fearless face and eyes the same color as her hair, which was extraordinary because her hair was red-gold. She looked down at a leather-skinned man in his forties, at a gold-leaf electroscope in his hand, and felt she was an intruder."

Apart from the synaesthetic (the mixing of senses, in plain English) detail of the bronze-smelling land, the language is rather plain. But the end-of-summer/beginning-of-fall color palette of the passage is extraordinary - starting with the pear tree (yellow-brown); then the word "bronze" (light-brownish); then the red-gold eyes and hair, the leather-skinned man (I guess a sort of tan color), the gold-leaf electroscope (bright golden yellow).
What's more extraordinary is the way this harmonious picture contrasts with the last part of the last sentence - "...and felt she was an intruder". According to the way I imagine the whole thing, she seems the exact opposite: an integral part of the color-scheme of the picture. She may feel she is an intruder but I felt she was exactly where she should be.

What I'm saying is, if you don't see prose skill just as "fancy sentences" (as I said, in the above example there are none), then you may be open to the idea that larger and more abstract elements could also be indicative of a writer's ability to write prose (and not just "to think up interesting-sounding stories"). And in that sense, I wouldn't be making the distinction "prose vs. plot". A plot development that I don't see artistic merit in (and whatever artistic merit there is in any work of literature, it has everything to do with the words on the page), I wouldn't call an example of good plotting. And so most fast-paced, excitingly *sounding* stories (in synopsis) turn out to me to be examples of bad plotting, because it usually ruins everything else about the book and therefore the speed and "excitement" turn out to be meaningless and unengaging.

Basically, I think that excitement about the author's way with sentences and excitement about the author's ability to "plot" is absolutely the same kind of excitement, different in scope, but not in kind.

so what book is that from?
 
Plot... I think

I find it hard to definitively say say 'either or' because if either one is too substandard it will ruin the book for me. If you were to some how assess 2 books to a consensus that one was 10 on plot 5 on prose and the other was 10 on prose and 5 on plot. I would think that the former would be more akin to my tastes.

If I had to choose a book not knowing how good the book was as a whole but only that one had better plot and the other had better prose, I would choose the plot because in general I would rather be given a simply stated good idea than a beautifully constructed bad one.

Although that answer does not take into account any correlation between good prose also having similarly good plot and the qualifications of the books that might be selected from. There may be far larger quantity of terrible books that have better ideas than delivery, in which case it would be better to go with Prose before Plot since the books with better prose are more likely to be better overall.
 
Knowing him, he probably wrote it himself

:D :D :D Jesus, no. It's the beginning of Slow Sculpture by Theodore Sturgeon :) I'm never so pleased with my writings as to call them even good, let alone extraordinary :)
 
The question itself is amazing.

Good prose will, of course, convey ideas; but over and above that, it is music. It is interesting and amusing to know which of Scheherezade's tales Rimsky-Korsakov's music was "illustrating", but it is beautiful music even if we are ignorant of its provenance. Finely wrought prose pleases us by the art of its construction, to the extent that well-made prose should fall well on the ear even in a language we do not know, owing to the natural fall of cadences, alliteration and assonance, and that sort of thing.

When we combine the music of it with its ability to convey imagery, both sensory and psychological, craftsmanlike prose is sheer pleasure. I--and I daresay I am not alone--will read with great pleasure a work on almost any subject that is rendered in intelligent prose; but a subject must be most exigent before I will submit to reading about it in wooden prose.

I will add what should not need saying, but which often does: finely wrought prose is not "purple" or over-ornamented. Indeed, while some varieites of luxuriant prose can be apealing, usually it is the leans, sparse, muscular sort that pleases best (though Hemingway may have overdone it a wee bit).

Consider these rather different samples just from one writer, Lord Dunsany (the master of fantasy):

"One day the King turned to the women that danced and said to them: 'Dance no more,' and those that bore the wine in jewelled cups he sent away. The palace of King Ebalon was emptied of sound of song and there rose the voices of heralds crying in the streets to find the prophets of the land."​

"And now the sun had set, and all the colours of the world and heaven had held a festival with him, and slipped one by one away before the imminent approach of night. The parrots had all flown home to the jungle on either bank, the monkeys in rows in safety on high branches of the trees were silent and asleep, the fireflies in the deeps of the forest were going up and down, and the great stars came gleaming out to look on the face of Yann."​

"When the advertiser saw the cathedral spires over the downs in the distance, he looked at them and wept. If only,' he said, 'this were an advertisement of Beefo, so nice, so nutritious, try it in your soup, ladies like it."​

(That last is the entire text of Dunsany's story aptly titled "What We Have Come To").

Very, very different but still admirable in different dimensions is this from R. A. Lafferty:

Flip O'Grady was a chimpanzee of mature years and unusual intelligence. He stood a full four feet tall. He was employed as a penny-flipper at the Probability Division: it was under the direction of Doctor Velikov Vonk, and so was Flip. . . .

The flipping was dogged hard work as Flip O'Grady did it, steep psychic stuff with preternatural aspects, and he sweat a lot on the assignments. He wore a T shirt and boxer shorts when he flipped pennies. After every flipping session he took a brisk five-minute shower. Then he put on horn-pipe pants and sports jacket for a forty minute coffee-and-doughnuts break. He took most of his breaks in the International House of Doughnuts, but also in Speedster's Cafe and in Zabotski's Bagelrees. The flipping, the shower, and the break constituted a cycle.

Flip lived in a little cottage that was eight feet by eight feet square. It was really a 'Garden Giant Little Gem Prefabricated Tool Shed,' the deluxe or two-window model. Flip had fixed it up according to his own exceptional taste, painted in three tones, and with red simulated tiles on the roof. It was heaped and overgrown with flowers.​

Or, yet again different, this, from a source left as an exercise for the student:

The time was middle morning; rain had darkened the black cobblestone pavement. Six-wheel drays lumbered along the streets; the entire district sounded to a subdued hum of engines. As Gersen walked a short sharp bleat of whistle signalled a change of shift; the sidewalks at once became crowded with workers. They were pale people, blank and humorless of face, wearing warm well-made coveralls in one of three colors: gray, dark blue, or mustard yellow; a contrasting belt, either black or white; black round-topped kaftans. All were standard issue, the government being an elaborate syndicalism, as thoroughgoing, careful, and humorless as its constituency.​

The point of intruding those examples is that while style and tone can vary considerably, well-wrought prose specimens have much in common. For a contrast, consider this, from a quite popular SF&F author:

He was on the right track. Coming through the hills I had been considering going after the group left at the southern approach. Not till Swan spoke did I realize that I would be unable to sneak up on that group. Night had come. Night belonged to Shadowspinner. He would know where we were and where we were headed. Unless that was away from him he would be waiting when we arrived.​

It reads like a telegram, or an entry in the annual (tongue-in-cheek) Hemingway sound-alike contest.

Saving that last, give me the quoted sample, and I'm on that tale like a hungry dog on a bone, and I don't very much care what it's about. (That second quotation from Dunsany is probably the quintessence of words meant to be spoken aloud; one can just hear, say, Richard Burton doing it.)
 
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I can't imagine anyone choosing prose over plot; that's watching films and choosing costumes or cinematography over story.
 
I've always found comparisons between literature and movies/TV very unproductive, even if I myself fall into their trap every once in a while. In short, no, it's not like that at all. The verbal and the visual image are two vastly different concepts, the way words constitute "story" again vastly different than the way the succession of movie-frames does it.

But let's go along with that parallel for the moment, against my better judgement. Script doesn't make the story. Editing and cinematography do. If I tell you that I've written a script about two cops in a hellish unnamed city, who are on the heels of a serial murderer using the seven deadly sins for inspiration; and at the end the murderer takes the head of the pregnant wife of one of the cops to force him into killing him and thus completing the pattern, will you say "wow, that's a hell of a story", or will you say "hm, sounds interesting, let's see how you pull it off on the screen"?

Not to mention that problematic distinction between "plot" and "prose". What qualities of "plot" and "prose" are we talking about when we pit them against one another? The illusion of "plot" could be that of fast story-pace, of easiness to follow; of complexity; of convolution, unstraightforwardness; of unexpectedness. Some of these things are mutually exclusive, so which one do we put against "prose"? And which aspect of "prose"? Economy? Intensity (which can be something quite different from economy, as Faulkner shows)? Originality of voice? Which "plot" vs. which "prose"?

@ owlcroft: First of all, I don't see a problem with the last quotation :) It syntax is quite varied, there is a formal order, an appealing starkness to it. It doesn't read like a telegram to me :)

Also, I don't feel that craftsmanlike prose is sheer pleasure - artistic prose is. The first kind is merely pleasing and comforting. So is most "plot", to me.
 
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I'll take prose over plot any day. Bad prose means a bad book in my view. I don't care how cool or new the story is, if the author is unable to make the prose match, I'm not going to bother. It's like a chef who has a great concept and great ingredients, but then what he presents you with is a brown mash that tastes like crap. No thank you.

I want clear, concise prose. I like lots of efficient imagery and active sentences. If the book doesn't have that, then I'm more than likely not going to like it regardless of the plot.
 
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To be honest, prose has never given me a literary orgasm as it seems to give some here.
 
When I saw the thread title I wanted to immediately say plot. Now that I've read all these posts I've been thinking a lot. I still -want- to say plot because prose is only one medium for telling a story when we have so many good ones now...

On the other hand though if the prose isn't good why read a novel in the first place? Maybe reading some more Sandman would be more satisfying? There's some great prose AND amazing visual style on display through pretty much all of it and I'm only halfway though. I think people are mistaking what is meant by people saying "I want something to happen". If you think of something beautifully written (and I don't necessarily mean "purple" either) but with a mess of a plot that goes nowhere prose can be it's own reward all it wants but I don't think that story would be very satisfying in the long run. If I can compare to a different storytelling vehicle I love the overall style of Dragonball Z. Toriyama's character art and action concepts have become iconic IMO but what an ABSOLUTE mess of a plot. Everyone gets trapped in an endless loop of getting their asses whipped and moaning, "When's Goku getting back?". Although all the trappings that made it good and enjoyable in the first place are still there, the neat designs, the entertaining fights it all gets lost in this mess of a story.

I have an even better example. How much did you guys love the second and third Matrix movie? You know where they completely boned up the story but it's oh so expensive and stylishly filmed? I know I didn't.

It's harder for me to quantify in a book but I think this is where I'm at with Malazan. Toll the Hounds has been sitting on my shelf for about 2 years now I think and I just can't get motivated to read it. I enjoyed the earlier books immensely and I can't put my finger on it but I think I got tired of all the deus ex machina, the legion characters, the impossible to track relativity of how thoroughly a dozen of the characters could decimate the world, how an otherwise normal person could fight off one of these dozen with a plain old spear... I think this thread has helped me to realize that I feel like Malazan has become something of a plotting mess. Although I realize that death is often pointless in life in his story at the end of Reaper's Gale there was this heavy-handed character death that made no sense on any level. It didn't add anything to the story. It didn't contribute to the message of the story. It didn't even seem to affect the characters all that much (it seemed to break one character's heart...sort of). Well if he's trying to say something about how death can be pointless and random why have the guy be murdered? Why not have him stumble on some wreckage (there's usually plenty of that around in Malazan) and hit his head off a sharp table-corner? Cancer anyone?

Good prose is it's own reward but I do feel that plot comes first after all.
 
Definitely prose, but then again plot is also prose... I mean, it's not the actual events, not really, cause there are no actual events in a work of fiction.

I think we need to work on our definitions here. Plot and prose are two distinct parts of a text, and I'll stick to my guns and say that you definitely can talk about them seperately. The plot is the events in the text, the story itself. The prose is the vocabulary and style in which it's written - the way that those events are being told or conveyed to the reader. What you cannot do is say that you like only either prose or plot, since a book needs both in order to be defined as a piece of fiction. But the question in thread was, which would you like more, one that has more of one or the other.

Of course a novel has events. "Actual" doesn't just mean "happening in real life". You can talk about "what's actually happening in a book" that has several layers or an unreliable narrator, for example.
 
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Not to mention that problematic distinction between "plot" and "prose". What qualities of "plot" and "prose" are we talking about when we pit them against one another? The illusion of "plot" could be that of fast story-pace, of easiness to follow; of complexity; of convolution, unstraightforwardness; of unexpectedness. Some of these things are mutually exclusive, so which one do we put against "prose"? And which aspect of "prose"? Economy? Intensity (which can be something quite different from economy, as Faulkner shows)? Originality of voice? Which "plot" vs. which "prose"?

Good questions but I think you're listing types of prose and types of plot. The OP is asking whether we would rather read a book with effective prose or effective plot. Both convoluted and straight-forward plots can be effective. Both economic and dense prose can be effective. So the specific style does not really determine effectiveness.

What is effective? Well, obviously that's very subjective but we'd probably agree that a plot with little conflict and no complications is going to be inferior to a plot with high-stakes conflict and unexpected complications. We'd probably agree that grammatically sound prose is going to trump prose that is marred by grammatical error.

So now we have an idea of what makes effective prose or effective plot (though it's a spectrum and there's bound to be difference of opinion) and we can ask:

Would you rather read a book where the prose may be a little clumsy here and there, but the tension of the story builds to a very unexpected but satisfying climax

OR

Would you rather read a novel with beautiful flowing prose that paints vivid images in your mind but lacks tension in some scenes and is a bit predictable?

Notice I'm still having to pick specific aspects of plot and prose to use as examples, as you suggest, but my point is that the basic question of the thread is a sound one.

For me plot is more important. Even a postmodern plot that eschews the structure of inciting incident/complications/rising action/climax/falling action/denoument still needs to have high stakes conflict and resolve those conflicts in some way or I'm not interested.
 
@ owlcroft: First of all, I don't see a problem with the last quotation :) It syntax is quite varied, there is a formal order, an appealing starkness to it. It doesn't read like a telegram to me :)

Read it out loud. Stop when the punctuation tells you to stop, you'll see what he means.

And to take Owlcroft's music analogy a little further. . . Preference of plot and prose is very much like whether or not you listen to music for the sound or the lyrics. I, personally, could care less about lyrics, it's the mood, the feel, the style and the structure of the music that I look for. Someone could be singing about stomping on anthills for all I care. I'm just big about structure, and structure falls into the prose category (or maybe the other way around). I'm a Formalist at heart, regardless of whether its in vogue or not.
 
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I would take both: I have a good example in Paul Kearney Monarchies of God and The Ten Thousand where there's fast action and some exquisite turns of phrase, conveying emotion and with an economy of means that spells elegance for me.
Peter S Beagle, Patricia McKillip, Ursulla K leGuin are other favorites, not so much action intensive but exponents of a current where it is important how you tell the story, not only what is in the story.
 
I like your music approach, Owlcroft, but you and I have argued about the poetry of the writer on the last example before. :)

For me, a prose stylist is someone putting a great deal of effort into the sound of the language, to create one style or another, and making use of imagery, repetition, alliteration, metaphor, dialogue cadence, etc. to support and tone that style. It may be noir, it may be bardic, or it may be both, as with someone like Mieville, or something else entirely, but it is using language and language devices to hold readers' attention and emotionally power the story. Authors who are not prose stylists still may write very good prose, but they aren't focusing as much on the sound of language used and on imagery. And authors who aren't prose stylists still might have troubles with plots. Prose stylists are quite often brilliant plotters. So the two really don't form a see-saw.

For me, if a writer is wonderful for me on prose and character, I may forgive what I see as some plot problems, like Scott Lynch, who is a stylist and who does actually very nice plots, plus is probably the best writer of shark fighting scenes ever, but they have a few problems here and there (a not uncommon situation with thrillers.) If a writer is not brilliant with language, but has an interesting story with characters I want to read about, then I will read it. Writers come in different styles, like music, except where the music analogy doesn't quite hold up is that there are basic building blocks of sound that everybody is using. Language is much broader than a music scale. And so the variety is potentially endless. Each tale doesn't have to do the same thing for me.
 

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